Toxicology In The Michael Jackson Manslaughter Trial

Kingofpop4ever3000 · Oct 16, 2011

smoothlugar said:
PS: Defense is constantly denying Murray used the drip that night. But as Dr. Steinberg pointed out on page 39 of Murray's interview with the police , lines 21 and 22, Murray is correcting the detective about the "same dose" but not about the drip. (Page 62, mentioned by the other doctor talks in general, not that night; page 39 refers to that night specifically).
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I'm confused. Wasn't there something mentioned back in 2009 or last year that there was a drip used and wasn't it claimed that Michael messed with the drip to get himself more propofol and that was the propofol dose that killed him? If so, how do the defense now say that there was no drip used that night or morning? I don't understand it.

smoothlugar · Oct 16, 2011

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smoothlugar · Oct 16, 2011

Kingofpop4ever3000 said:
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I'm confused. Wasn't there something mentioned back in 2009 or last year that there was a drip used and wasn't it claimed that Michael messed with the drip to get himself more propofol and that was the propofol dose that killed him? If so, how do the defense now say that there was no drip used that night or morning? I don't understand it.

As far as I remember those were only theories on boards... there was fear that the use of a drip would help defense.

But up to now we can see the opposite in the trial. Surely prosecutors will clarify everything.

daisy · Oct 16, 2011

If the long IV drip contained propofol then self-administration would be more likely and hence easier for the defence to use that argument. In theory it would not pay out for Murray to hide the long IV drip. He could still have taken the second IV tube cause he thought that would help him and that was a part of hiding the evidence whenever he could and in panic. He was not instructed by his lawyers what to say or do at that time.

Why didn't Murray say about propofol to the paramedics? Maybe indeed he had some crazy "plan" to hide all the evidence about propofol and he thought he would succeed, thinking that propofol already left Michael's body and would not show in tox results.

smoothlugar · Oct 16, 2011

Another doubt: Flanagan asked the coroner about the "spike" device and suggested another way of using it not from continuous dripping from the bottle but to get quicker the amount and mix it (I think he suggested with the saline bag), but this I don't fully understand it.

What was Flanagan trying to suggest about the spike with the coroner? Isn't it contradictory with what they are saying that their client did not use a drip on that night??

smoothlugar · Oct 16, 2011

daisy said:
If the long IV drip contained propofol then self-administration would be more likely and hence easier for the defence to use that argument.
..

How if the drip is to be used to maintain sleep and the patient was already uncouncious??

daisy · Oct 16, 2011

smoothlugar said:
As far as I remember those were only theories on boards... there was fear that the use of a drip would help defense.

But up to now we can see the opposite in the trial. Surely prosecutors will clarify everything.

What bothers me is that why would Murray use such simple IV setting and not buy a relatively cheap infusion pump, especially that he did not have an experience in administering propofol. It would be easier for him, why using some strange IV setting? EDIT: not strange but unprecise.

smoothlugar said:
How if the drip is to be used to maintain sleep and the patient was already uncouncious??

If that was a non-precise setting the drip might have stopped for a while (get blocked)? I thought that was the theory with self-injection that was afterwards said to be non valid due to lack of propofol in the longer IV tube. But I might be wrong.

elusive moonwalker · Oct 16, 2011

Wasnt loraz etc found in the short tubing. murray injected that he didnt drip it.

re the spike it seemed flanagan was just looking for an excuse for it been used other than rigers mentioned. in that murray needed to empty it all to mix it. but yes that then implies a drip in itself

ivy · Oct 16, 2011

Soundmind said:
he left two syringes , the two propofol vialS, did not even bother to remove the saline bag with the cut before he called Alvarez , the paramedics were with him for 45 minutes with three bodyguards , left with him to the hospital but apparently no one saw that tube hiden into his pocket, we've seen pics of him arriving at the hospital, we certainly saw no tubing ,all the eyes were on him when he arrived at the hospital but he managed to get rid of it?!!

in every case there's one single piece of evidence that might make or break the case. In OJ Simpson case the famous sentence was "if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit.

so propofol bottles or syringes doesn't mean an IV drip. They mean bolus injections. The spike tear on propofol bottle was explained as possible IV drip by prosecution and explained alternatively as possibly quick way to get propofol out of the bottle by the defense..

whether bottle was in the IV bag - possible drip - or not is also questionable due to no photographs, not taking the item on the first day and not mentioning it on reports and in interviews initially..

No IV tubing with propofol is also being used by murray's team as a defense..

murray's statement to the cops is also can be interpreted as either as an IV is present or not...

so what is one piece that would tied everything together.. the IV tubing with Propofol in it.. Don't you think it's the best piece to remove if you can? and it's possible to remove it easily in murray's pockets. it's not like he could have removed all the bottles etc.. and do you really believed that he wanted to go home to remove "the cream"?.. perhaps his plan was to take the most crucial thing that he can carry with him and then return back for the rest.. and honestly the photo was from so far away how did you see what was in his pockets or not?

cinzia said:
If Murray is the tall man on the left with the baggy t shirt and pants, as has been said, then I don't see any difficulty bundling up some narrow plastic tubing and sticking it into a pants pocket under the shirt. Not like it would be sticking out or anything. Much easier than disposing of an IV bag and bottles in the heat of a panicked moment. Then naturally anything left behind would be 'clean'...
Not saying he necessarily did it but the more I think about it, why not?

as far as I can see he's wearing a cargo pants which would mean 4 pockets.

daisy said:
If the long IV drip contained propofol then self-administration would be more likely and hence easier for the defence to use that argument. In theory it would not pay out for Murray to hide the long IV drip. He could still have taken the second IV tube cause he thought that would help him and that was a part of hiding the evidence whenever he could and in panic. He was not instructed by his lawyers what to say or do at that time.

Why didn't Murray say about propofol to the paramedics? Maybe indeed he had some crazy "plan" to hide all the evidence about propofol and he thought he would succeed, thinking that propofol already left Michael's body and would not show in tox results.

you are approaching to the subject from what we know now. Look to police interview Murray's position then is that " I don't know what killed him but nothing I gave him could have killed him". He's not putting the blame on Michael. So if he killed MJ with a drip, he could have removed that evidence to be able to say "nothing I gave could have killed him".

Soundmind · Oct 16, 2011

1000mg vial + 200mg = 1200mg in total that's what he supposedly gave based on the vials found , right? we shall see !!!, Schafer is going to take the stand very soon and he is the most qualifiled of all the experts to make an estimation.

ivy · Oct 16, 2011

Soundmind said:
1000mg vial + 200mg = 1200mg in total that's what he supposedly gave based on the vials found , right? we shall see !!!, Schafer is going to take the stand very soon and he is the most qualifiled of all the experts to make an estimation.

that's the max he could have given, doesn't necessarily mean he gave it all..

cinzia · Oct 16, 2011

Soundmind said:
1000mg vial + 200mg = 1200mg in total that's what he supposedly gave based on the vials found , right? we shall see !!!, Schafer is going to take the stand very soon and he is the most qualifiled of all the experts to make an estimation.

I'm so glad there are those of you who can keep all of this straight...I sure can't! So thanks to you all.
Question, well 2 actually. The 1200 mg based on the vials found...is that the sum total of what was missing from the vials present when the evidence was collected?
Second question about the midaz and loraz. My understanding was that murray gave them IV push (bolus). I don't remember hearing about them being dripped in. If he said it during his 'interview' then I surely missed it as I simply couldn't bear to listen to more than a small part of it without throwing up from the saccharine caring attitude he presented. Ugh.
If not from that interview can someone point me to where I can find it? Thanks again.

Soundmind · Oct 16, 2011

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Page 22 -23

Detective Smith: Okay. Into—into his I.V drip already .

Dr.Murray: No. The IV drip was with the saline, normal saline for hydration. And lower down on the – on the cord, there is a port that I can inject a needle.

Detective Smith : Okay.

Dr. Murray: so I would turn off the IV at that time and then I would slowly infuse the medication.
Detective Smith: Okay.
Dr.Murray: Over about two to three minutes .
Detective Smith: Okay.

Dr. Murray: And once that was safely infused , then I would unclap ---uncap the line and then just have the IV continue to drip .
Detective Smith : Okay. So obviously that was done with a syringe .
Dr.Murray : yes.
Detective Smith : Slowly.
[FONT=&quot]Dr.Murray: yes[/FONT]

The 1200 mg based on the vials found...is that the sum total of what was missing from the vials present when the evidence was collected?

no there were many half empty 200mg vilas found in his bag. But there was one empty 200mg vial which was found under the table , and the infamous 1000mg vial everyone here believes he administered as a drip!! Those were the two that actually we have evidence were in the room when everything happened, so yeah based on the vials found he could have given alot more than 1200 mg !!!

smoothlugar · Oct 16, 2011

cinzia said:
.
If not from that interview can someone point me to where I can find it? Thanks again.

Maybe it is more bearable by reading than by listening:

http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/1007_conrad_murray_transcript.pdf

cinzia · Oct 16, 2011

Thanks to both of you! Yes it is better reading than hearing that .... voice. Have just started and one thing I realized...Michael didn't stop in to see the children when he got home? Or maybe he did look in on them but it wouldn't come up talking with murray.

Toxicology In The Michael Jackson Manslaughter Trial

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