Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Tygger]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

I think the discussion has been because some things said can be twisted as if AEG could sort of impose the doctor or his services over Michael. And that was not the case, as we well know.

Oh? Who said that?

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

I was thinking the verdict may come this week, but with Monday off, the team may have to review to get everyone's mind back to where they left off. Maybe that may cause a delay?

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Oh? Who said that?

Who said what??

 

[marebear]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Didn't AEG fire Grace the nanny for Michael?

 

[8701girl]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Didn't AEG fire Grace the nanny for Michael?

I dont think aeg would have the authority to do that since michael was her boss not them

 

[maviefly]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Didn't AEG fire Grace the nanny for Michael?

I dont think aeg would have the authority to do that since michael was her boss not them

'AEG has been cutting down on Mr. Jackson's expenses in anticitation of his upcoming tour. Unfortunately at this time the services you provide do not meet our needs' AEG executive Paul Gongaware told Grace Rwaramba on April 19th.

As he wrote in an email Randy Phillips yelled at Michael, he slapped him, he threw him into a cold shower.

AEG awed Michael. As Ortega said, 'he was scared to death'.

And no, Michael wasn't in the position to terminate the doctor.

Who thinks AEG is not liable?

Of course AEG is liable.

And keep in mind: this trial is not about Murray or the Jackson family.

This trial is about AEG and Michael Jackson.

This trial is about: was ist AEG fault or was ist Michael's fault.

It was NOT Michael's fault.

It was AEG fault.

 

[Bubs]

^^Wrong, this trial is about whether AEG negligently hired CM.


@Marebear

Regarding AEG hiring Grace R
"AEG says Gongaware firing nanny Grace at Michael’s order is irrelevant to the matters at hand. They say AEG never employed or paid Grace and Gongaware was given an already prepared letter and just contacted Grace because Michael told him to."

It is totally believable that MJ told Gonga that Grace needs go, and he wanted someone else to do firing part as MJ always got someone else to do firing. I think Gonga just did a favour to MJ by firing Grace, but as it said above, Grace was never contracted by AEG, so officially they couldn't fire her.

 

[qbee]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

And no, Michael wasn't in the position to terminate the doctor.

Yes he was in that position. Michael Jackson had no contract with Dr, Murray. And even if he did, he could terminate / Fire him when ever he wanted. All he would have to do is say I no longer want or require your services and have his Bodyguards escort him out the door, telling him to never return. Dr Murray could later sue for past payment due but that wouldn't stop Michael from having the power to fire him on the spot any time he wanted.

 

[MIST]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

I think Murray knew Michael could fire him.
Murray had his own insurance, the recording of Michael on drugs

 

[maviefly]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

^^Wrong, this trial is about whether AEG negligently hired CM.

Exactly. And this means: IF AEG hired CM AEG is liable.


qbee: no, Michael couldn't fire anyone simply because he was awed by AEG, he was scared to death.

They (AEG) made him believe he was in desperate need of money and he had to do what they say to earn money.

Michael wanted to earn this money for a house he owns and where he could live with his children, so he did what they told him to do.

This is very sad and heartbreaking. And as it seem to be Michael couldn't even trust his bodyguards anymore.

AEG didn't care if Michael is well or not. They wanted him to do this shows, no matter what that meant for Michael's health.

So - who is liable?


AEG is liable.

 

[qbee]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Michael had the power to fire Murray. Your "speculation" of how Michael may or may not have felt doesn't change that fact. There is no evidence ever stated that AEG required or forced Michael to be treated by Dr, Murray.

AEG may be liable for Hiring Murray and negligent in supervising him. Which are the only claims against them.
You are certainly welcome to hold that "opinion" that they are liable. I don't think they are liable.
You and I don't decide that .. the Jury will. We dont have to agree.

In my opinion. The only one liable for Dr Murray's actions that killed Michael is Dr Murray
Meaning I don't agree that this trial should have even taken place.

ETA - I don't care who wins .. I won't be celebrating and I wont be bashing.
It is what it is ... But IMO Michael wins nothing here.
He was dragged through the mud by both the Jackson's and AEG.

I have NO respect for either.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

@Maviefly, If your refer to the jury questionnaire, you will see that question 1 asks who hired Murray - the following questions are based around negligence, so, even if the jury find that AEG hired Murray they may still decide it was not negligently and find that AEG are not liable. So it's not as straight forward as they hired so therefore they are liable.

 

[Victory22]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

@ Maviefly,
But if Michael's health was failing how would he be able to do the shows you say AEG wanted him to perform? It doesn't make any sense that they would not care about Michael's health if as you say they wanted him on stage. You can't very well work if you're sick. You also said that AEG made Michael believe he was desperate for money. Are you saying that Michael was incapable of understanding his own financial records and accounting figures? He wasn't really in a desperate financial situation and AEG could so easily manipulated him into thinking he was?

 

[Allusio]

This Trial is about nothing… Yes, AEG is liable for coursing Michael distress with disrespect and their schemes. But they are NOT on Trial for this. I wish they would.

But I do not understand how could they be responsible for Murray? No one can be responsible for the man’s actions but the man himself. It does not matter who hired him, whoever did so – his actions are his responsibility.

 

[Thrill]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Yes he was in that position. Michael Jackson had no contract with Dr, Murray.

soo if mj did not have a contract with murray that would mean mj did not hire him

aeg claims mj solely hired murray but they also claim michael did not consent it, so what is it then??? they need to make up their lying minds.

this is a catch 22 situation, everything from the conflict of interest to murrays contract where even KATHY JORRIE says AEG COULD FIRE WITHOUTT MICHAELS CONSENT.

so if jorrie who made the contract testified it why do some people still refuse to see it. HOW do u explain if jorrie also said AEGG can fire 'michaels doctor' without checking with mj?????

 

[Bubs]

They (AEG) made him believe he was in desperate need of money and he had to do what they say to earn money.

Michael wanted to earn this money for a house he owns and where he could live with his children, so he did what they told him to do.

What are you talking about? Are you saying that MJ was NOT in desparate need for money? Have you talked to Randy Jackson?
I think it is safe to say that indeed Michael was in desparate need for money and like everyone else on earth, we have to work for it. Going on tour was Michael's decision and that allowed him to get money and fast.
Michael didn't have to do this tour if he didn't want, but he knew his money situation was bad, so he had to do something in order to sort out his money problems.
MJ's money problems were not AEG's fault. They offered Michael a deal that he can redeem himself and make money for his dreams.

Just a reminder:
MJ: "Elvis didn’t do it. Beatles didn’t do it. We have to be phenomenal. When people leave this show. When people leave my show, I want them to say, ‘I’ve never seen nothing like this in my life. Go Go. I’ve never seen nothing like this. Go. It’s amazing. He’s the greatest entertainer in the world.’ I’m taking that money, a million children, children’s hospital, the biggest in the world, Michael Jackson’s Children’s Hospital. Gonna have a movie theater, game room. Children are depressed. Their mind is depressing them. I want to give them that. I care about them, them angels. God wants me to do it. God wants me to do it. I’m gonna do that, Conrad."

CM: "I know you would."

MJ: "Don’t have enough hope, no more hope. That’s the next generation that’s gonna save our planet, starting with—we’ll talk about it. United States, Europe, Prague, my babies. They walk around with no mother. They drop them off, they leave – a psychological degradation of that. They reach out to me—please take me with you."

CM: "Mmnh-mmnh."

MJ: "I want to do that for them."

CM:"Mmnh-mmnh."

MJ: "I’m gonna do that for them. That will be remembered more than my performances. My performances will be up there helping my children and always be my dream. I love them. I love them because I didn’t have a childhood. I had no childhood. I feel their pain. I feel their hurt. I can deal with it. ‘Heal the World,’ ‘We Are the World,’ ‘Will You Be There,’ ‘The Lost Children.’ These are the songs I’ve written because I hurt, you know, I hurt.”
(13 seconds: silence)

CM:"You ok?"

MJ:"I am asleep."
-----------------------------------

Michael wanted this tour to happen as much AEG for reason he speaks in that recording, and try not to forget what Michael says.

 

[maviefly]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

In my opinion. The only one liable for Dr Murray's actions that killed Michael is Dr Murray

But this is simply not the question.

Question is: Did AEG hire Dr. Murray?

If the answer is 'no' - the question will be: who else hired Dr. Murray?

What would you say? If AEG didn't hire Dr. Murray - who hired Dr. Murray?

The one who hired Murray is the one who will be found liable.

And this will not be Dr. Murray himself, he is not charged in this trial.


And btw, yes, Michael was under strong pressure by AEG.

You will find this out by reading all the testimonies you can find in a special section on this board.

 

[MIST]

They (AEG) made him believe he was in desperate need of money and he had to do what they say to earn money.

I don´t think AEG had to remind Michael about that he was in desperate need of money.
I´m sure Michael knew that before he began to work with AEG.

AEG told Michael not to go to Klein, we know Michael did go to Kleins office.
AEG wanted Michael to go to rehearsals , ..Michael went to rehearsals...sometimes..
AEG wanted another doctor for him..Michael said no

 

[gerryevans]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Gerryevans, I never said Michael could not refuse treatment; he simply could not terminate the doctor without going through AEG. What would happen if Michael did stop treatment? The doctor would not be terminated; he would still be an active independent contractor. Remember the doctor saying (if you believe him) he did not give Michael propofol on the 23rd and the 24th? He was scheduled to receive a full month's payment and it seems Michael stopped treatment.

You're right on the bold. You didn't say that. I do admit it's an exaggeration of what you are saying, but what you ARE saying is exaggeration as well IMO. So, I'll leave this at another stalemate.

Today, the jury resumes. Hopefully, at least a verdict will be issued this week, but unfortunately that won't end this thing. It'll be going on for years in appeals on whatever happens. I find I really am at the point as others here are that I don't care who gets the initial favorable verdict. I think it'll be like when Evan Chandler died. Won't be sad, won't be happy, but oddly not even indifferent. Will just feel that impact all over again that MJ is gone, and another event that caused him harm has reached a minor conclusion. You'd think that would make a fan feel at least great satisfaction, but I guess it doesn't because nothing brings him back.

Oh well...hope you and everyone have a good day.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

If the answer is 'no' - the question will be: who else hired Dr. Murray?
What would you say? If AEG didn't hire Dr. Murray - who hired Dr. Murray?

As per CM's independed contractor agreement:
The undersigned hereby confirms that he has requested Producer to engage Dr Murray on the terms set forth herien on behalf of and at the expense of this undersigned:

Michael Jackson


MJ could have get Dr Adams if he wanted.
MJ could have taken AEG advice and let them find him proper doctor from UK.
As a fact, MJ could have gotten nearly any doctor he wanted, but he wanted CM for certain reason.
Is it right to blame AEG for that? No in my opinion.

What do you think MJ would say who hired CM?

 

[qbee]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

But this is simply not the question.

Question is: Did AEG hire Dr. Murray?

If the answer is 'no' - the question will be: who else hired Dr. Murray?

What would you say? If AEG didn't hire Dr. Murray - who hired Dr. Murray?

The one who hired Murray is the one who will be found liable.
.

But there is more than just one question of who hired Murray. Certainly you are aware of that.
If the Jury answers yes that AEG hired Murray - and no to the rest, AEG will not be held liable for his actions.
They have to answer yes to all questions. So just hiring doesn't make them liable.

Jurors will have a verdict form with 16 questions to answer during their deliberations.
A "no" answer to any of the first five would end their deliberations and the trial immediately.

Question No. 1
Did AEG Live hire Murray?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 2. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 2
Was Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 3. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 3
Did AEG Live know or should it have known that Murray was unfit or incompetent and that this unfitness or incompetence created a particular risk to others?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 4. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 4
Did Murray's unfitness or incompetence harm Michael Jackson and the Jackson plaintiffs?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 5. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 5
Was AEG Live's negligence in hiring, supervising or retaining Murray a substantial factor in causing Michael Jackson and the Jackson plaintiffs' harm?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then the remaining questions. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Questions No. 6-13
If jurors get to question six, it means they've decided AEG Live is liable in Jackson's death. The next eight questions would decide a dollar figure for the economic and noneconomic damages suffered by his mother and children.

Questions No. 14-16
The amount of damages calculated by the jury could be significantly reduced when they reach the last three questions on their verdict form. These ask them to decide how much, if any, Michael Jackson's own negligence was a factor in his death.

 

[Allusio]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

But this is simply not the question.

The one who hired Murray is the one who will be found liable.

And this will not be Dr. Murray himself, he is not charged in this trial.

And that is exactly why IMO this Trial has no sense. They basically took the responsibility from the guilty man and place it on the victim.

It all seems to be one hopeless attempt somehow to blame anyone to get any money.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

And that is exactly why IMO this Trial has no sense. They basically took the responsibility from the guilty man and place it on the victim.

It all seems to be one hopeless attempt somehow to blame anyone to get any money.

So true.

When the verdict is reached, mark my words, we will be hearing from CM, either through his lawyer or another unanswered phonecall is sold to the tabloids. The real killer has only less than month left from his sentence then he is free man, and he too will start his rounds on media telling how MJ forced him to give propofol, or whatever crap he might come up with.
Media just loves that sort of stories and willingly give a platform for his crap talk, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop him after restitution was waived away. This trial should not have happened, not at expense of feeding Michael to the hyenas.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

So true.

When the verdict is reached, mark my words, we will be hearing from CM, either through his lawyer or another unanswered phonecall is sold to the tabloids. The real killer has only less than month left from his sentence then he is free man, and he too will start his rounds on media telling how MJ forced him to give propofol, or whatever crap he might come up with.
Media just loves that sort of stories and willingly give a platform for his crap talk, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop him after restitution was waived away. This trial should not have happened, not at expense of feeding Michael to the hyenas.

Absolutely!

This is trial is not about whether we like AEG or not, if they were on trial for being a*holes then I think we would see 100% liable vote. This trial saddens me for two reason firstly all the above but secondly how it has caused an even deeper divide in the fan community - hopefully at some point we can come together and get back to our simple love and admiration of Michael.

 

[qbee]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

I agree, I would find AEG %100 guilty of being Assholes toward MJ. (I have no respect for how they treated him at times) but I see nothing to hold them responsible for DR Murray's negligent actions that killed Michael. I don't think there is anyone here that holds AEG in high esteem.

 

[ivy]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

And this will not be Dr. Murray himself, he is not charged in this trial.

just because he's not included in this trial will not take away from the fact that he was found guilty at the criminal trial.

 

[maviefly]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

just because he's not included in this trial will not take away from the fact that he was found guilty at the criminal trial.

Of course not. But again, this is not what the ongoing trial is about. It's about: Did AEG hire Dr. Murray or did AEG not hire Dr. Murray.

If AEG didn't hire Dr. Murray who did hire him?

Was it Michael? No. Michael didn't hire Dr. Murray.

AEG hired Dr. Murray. So AEG is liable for hiring Dr. Murray and finally, as a last consequence - for Michael's death.

Note: I do not say AEG killed Michael. Dr. Murray killed Michael. But hiring Dr. Murray was AEG's negligence.

 

[Korgnex]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

^ It's not that simple (take a look at questions 2-5). And why are you claiming that Michael couldn't hire Murray?

 

[ivy]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Of course not. But again, this is not what the ongoing trial is about. It's about: Did AEG hire Dr. Murray or did AEG not hire Dr. Murray.

If AEG didn't hire Dr. Murray who did hire him?

Was it Michael? No. Michael didn't hire Dr. Murray.

AEG hired Dr. Murray. So AEG is liable for hiring Dr. Murray and finally, as a last consequence - for Michael's death.

Note: I do not say AEG killed Michael. Dr. Murray killed Michael. But hiring Dr. Murray was AEG's negligence.

you need to refer back to jury instructions (at the first post). It clearly states the possibilities are Michael hired Murray, AEG hired Murray, AEG and Michael hired Murray and no one hired Murray. So if the jury says AEG did not hire Murray, it does not automatically mean that Michael hired him. It might also mean no one hired him.

And as Korgnex pointed out it's not as simple as you make it sound like.

 

[rsggamer123]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

So deliberations are back on now?