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Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
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Tygger
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Some posts are missing.
Great post Thrill.
Maviefly, this trial is as simple as you want to make it because it is not complicated. I have noticed over the months that it has been characterized as simple and logical to show AEG is not liable however, complicated and illogical to show AEG is.
I simply completed all four questions with yes answers using evidence from the trial to support those affirmative answers. I have yet to see one poster that can simply gives evidence from the trial to support four no answers. Remember, the defense has conceded to question four so, there are only four answers to find AEG liable.
I filled out the form as per below. No one has to agree with my reasoning for affirmative answers however, I have yet see such reasoning with evidence from the trial to support it for the opposite view.
This was simply a three-party relationship that caused conflicted interest. All parties have paid a price except one. Michael paid with his life. The doctor was convicted as per the state. AEG cannot pay with their lives or serve time for a criminal offense. They can only legally pay with monies through a successful verdict in this civil trial. With a successful verdict, they will pay.
What did I exaggerate in your view? I summarized the actual events of the 23rd and 24th. There is no need for hypothesis, scenarios, and examples when I can simply look at the events as they happened.
Great post Thrill.
Maviefly, this trial is as simple as you want to make it because it is not complicated. I have noticed over the months that it has been characterized as simple and logical to show AEG is not liable however, complicated and illogical to show AEG is.
I simply completed all four questions with yes answers using evidence from the trial to support those affirmative answers. I have yet to see one poster that can simply gives evidence from the trial to support four no answers. Remember, the defense has conceded to question four so, there are only four answers to find AEG liable.
I filled out the form as per below. No one has to agree with my reasoning for affirmative answers however, I have yet see such reasoning with evidence from the trial to support it for the opposite view.
This was simply a three-party relationship that caused conflicted interest. All parties have paid a price except one. Michael paid with his life. The doctor was convicted as per the state. AEG cannot pay with their lives or serve time for a criminal offense. They can only legally pay with monies through a successful verdict in this civil trial. With a successful verdict, they will pay.
gerryevans;3912169 said:
What did I exaggerate in your view? I summarized the actual events of the 23rd and 24th. There is no need for hypothesis, scenarios, and examples when I can simply look at the events as they happened.
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maviefly
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Autumn II
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Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
If the jury is diligent, this is actually quite complicated, and SHOULD be complicated if the verdict is approached from a standpoint of critical thinking. Just to answer question one, the jury should be considering that UNSIGNED contract and its text and the significance of that text. They should have knowledge of what "hiring" means under the law, in terms of an "independent contractor." They should know what comprises an oral agreement. And more. . . . . I would expect no less of any diligent jury. . . .
If the jury is diligent, this is actually quite complicated, and SHOULD be complicated if the verdict is approached from a standpoint of critical thinking. Just to answer question one, the jury should be considering that UNSIGNED contract and its text and the significance of that text. They should have knowledge of what "hiring" means under the law, in terms of an "independent contractor." They should know what comprises an oral agreement. And more. . . . . I would expect no less of any diligent jury. . . .
rsggamer123
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Petrarose
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Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
I thought by now we would hear if they requested any other materials, but everything is quiet so far..
Korgnex I really like your posts in this thread. Your analyses and explanations point directly to factual texts/documents, which are really needed in the thread. Thanks a bunch.
I thought by now we would hear if they requested any other materials, but everything is quiet so far..
Korgnex I really like your posts in this thread. Your analyses and explanations point directly to factual texts/documents, which are really needed in the thread. Thanks a bunch.
legacylegacy7
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Bubs;3912166 said:
Thank you for posting Michael's words. He spoke those words in his most vulnerable state, never thinking that his own doctor would record him and never knowing the world would hear those words. Yet he was the same Michael Jackson telling us exactly why he wanted to do these shows and what he wanted to do with the money. He wanted the money to help others. He never told anyone that he had to do shows because he was in desperate need of the money for himself. In his career MJ did a tour and donated all of the money to charity. Through his whole career, more than anyone else, he always raised tremendous amounts of money so he could use it to help others. The man knew how blessed he was. So here he is, in his most private moments, but still the same Michael Jackson..
Annita
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http://mjtruthnow1.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/and-we-wait-for-another-jury-to-decide/
And, We Wait for Another Jury To Decide
29 Sep
The closing arguments in the AEG Live trial were completed last week and the case has now been presented to the jury. The jury has had to endure 5 long months of testimony in a trial whose main purpose is supposedly to determine who hired Conrad Murray, the man, now felon, who is responsible for the involuntary manslaughter of Michael Jackson.
No verdict in this trial can change the fact that Conrad Murray egregiously violated 17 tenets of the proper care of his patient. The AEG Live trial made this more than clear. Murray improperly treated his “desperate to sleep” patient’s severe insomnia by poisoning him for two months with a drug, propofol, that he had no training to administer and without the proper equipment while doing so. He administered the drug, walked away from his patient to talk on the phone with his stripper girlfriend, failed to call emergency services to assist while covering up his crime and lied to hospital emergency staff about what he had done. Murray’s only patient died in his negligent care. Murray, scheduled to be released from jail at the end of October, has not appropriately paid for his crime. Katherine Jackson declined to seek restitution from Murray so he is now free to profit from his crime in books and on the tabloid talk show circuit.
Testimony at this trial made it clear that Michael Jackson, the victim, was on trial for the third time. The judge presided over a circus that seemed to allow any and all line of questioning that laid bare the privacy of Michael Jackson for public consumption.
IF AEG wins, it means they didn’t hire or supervise Murray and bear no responsibility for his medical incompetence which led directly to Jackson’s death.
IF Katherine Jackson wins, it means AEG hired and supervised Murray who was then caught in a corporate conflict of loyalty which bred the incompetence that led to Jackson’s death
In either case, the jury heard witness testimony about Michael Jackson’s behavior over the years relative to his use of prescription medication — including brave attempts to separate from them for good. Some of these witnesses spoke from first-hand knowledge because they were doctors who treated Jackson and others spoke from close perspective like Debbie Rowe.
This trial did help Michael’s legacy in some respect. It shed much light on the fact that he was an excellent father. Not one witness disputed that or said to the contrary. It showed him to be a very spiritual person. When one of the doctors was asked what they talked about, he said the Bible. Nearly every one of the witnesses spoke very highly of Michael, even the doctors who felt he was over-medicating. They all loved him dearly. It has made him very human and has, perhaps, taken the focus off the previous negative perceptions. Most of the reporting had a certain amount of understanding and stuck to the facts. Anthony McCartney of AP, Alan Duke of CNN, and ABC LA local were generally fair and factual in their reporting. There were some that reverted to old negatives, but surprisingly few. We never knew before this trial how much pain Michael was in and hopefully there is a better understanding of what he endured. Thinking of the jury – before the trial and after – they probably have a hugely different opinion of Michael. That he was someone who had to live and cope with pain, someone who people loved dearly, an extremely generous and caring person, and a father figure to many. We sincerely hope that the public will hear about this and will listen.
For those who hoped that the “truth” would be discovered in this trial in total, that does not appear to be the case. There were too many important witnesses that either became “unavailable” or were not called to testify because what they had to offer did not promote the agenda of either side in this case. The trial was as notable for who was not called to testify as for who was called to testify. Most witnesses were HIGHLY paid “experts” who were used to promote a certain agenda in the case. A civil trial is all, after all, about money…seeking to be paid vs. trying not to pay. AEG’s strategy of “blaming the victim” is very ugly. Assigning blame to Michael by the plaintiffs is an also an ugly concession in order to try to win the case.
In the end, it is up to the jury to decide. Whatever the verdict, all of this testimony is on the record to be discussed, written about and spun every which way. It will be grist for the narrow-focused minds who see the world in black/white, and who perpetually grasp at simple answers for everything such as, “Michael Jackson was a grown man, elected to take drugs, and died as a result.” Period. End of story … for them.
There is really no winner here…only losers…Michael Jackson and his children.
And, We Wait for Another Jury To Decide
29 Sep
The closing arguments in the AEG Live trial were completed last week and the case has now been presented to the jury. The jury has had to endure 5 long months of testimony in a trial whose main purpose is supposedly to determine who hired Conrad Murray, the man, now felon, who is responsible for the involuntary manslaughter of Michael Jackson.
No verdict in this trial can change the fact that Conrad Murray egregiously violated 17 tenets of the proper care of his patient. The AEG Live trial made this more than clear. Murray improperly treated his “desperate to sleep” patient’s severe insomnia by poisoning him for two months with a drug, propofol, that he had no training to administer and without the proper equipment while doing so. He administered the drug, walked away from his patient to talk on the phone with his stripper girlfriend, failed to call emergency services to assist while covering up his crime and lied to hospital emergency staff about what he had done. Murray’s only patient died in his negligent care. Murray, scheduled to be released from jail at the end of October, has not appropriately paid for his crime. Katherine Jackson declined to seek restitution from Murray so he is now free to profit from his crime in books and on the tabloid talk show circuit.
Testimony at this trial made it clear that Michael Jackson, the victim, was on trial for the third time. The judge presided over a circus that seemed to allow any and all line of questioning that laid bare the privacy of Michael Jackson for public consumption.
IF AEG wins, it means they didn’t hire or supervise Murray and bear no responsibility for his medical incompetence which led directly to Jackson’s death.
IF Katherine Jackson wins, it means AEG hired and supervised Murray who was then caught in a corporate conflict of loyalty which bred the incompetence that led to Jackson’s death
In either case, the jury heard witness testimony about Michael Jackson’s behavior over the years relative to his use of prescription medication — including brave attempts to separate from them for good. Some of these witnesses spoke from first-hand knowledge because they were doctors who treated Jackson and others spoke from close perspective like Debbie Rowe.
This trial did help Michael’s legacy in some respect. It shed much light on the fact that he was an excellent father. Not one witness disputed that or said to the contrary. It showed him to be a very spiritual person. When one of the doctors was asked what they talked about, he said the Bible. Nearly every one of the witnesses spoke very highly of Michael, even the doctors who felt he was over-medicating. They all loved him dearly. It has made him very human and has, perhaps, taken the focus off the previous negative perceptions. Most of the reporting had a certain amount of understanding and stuck to the facts. Anthony McCartney of AP, Alan Duke of CNN, and ABC LA local were generally fair and factual in their reporting. There were some that reverted to old negatives, but surprisingly few. We never knew before this trial how much pain Michael was in and hopefully there is a better understanding of what he endured. Thinking of the jury – before the trial and after – they probably have a hugely different opinion of Michael. That he was someone who had to live and cope with pain, someone who people loved dearly, an extremely generous and caring person, and a father figure to many. We sincerely hope that the public will hear about this and will listen.
For those who hoped that the “truth” would be discovered in this trial in total, that does not appear to be the case. There were too many important witnesses that either became “unavailable” or were not called to testify because what they had to offer did not promote the agenda of either side in this case. The trial was as notable for who was not called to testify as for who was called to testify. Most witnesses were HIGHLY paid “experts” who were used to promote a certain agenda in the case. A civil trial is all, after all, about money…seeking to be paid vs. trying not to pay. AEG’s strategy of “blaming the victim” is very ugly. Assigning blame to Michael by the plaintiffs is an also an ugly concession in order to try to win the case.
In the end, it is up to the jury to decide. Whatever the verdict, all of this testimony is on the record to be discussed, written about and spun every which way. It will be grist for the narrow-focused minds who see the world in black/white, and who perpetually grasp at simple answers for everything such as, “Michael Jackson was a grown man, elected to take drugs, and died as a result.” Period. End of story … for them.
There is really no winner here…only losers…Michael Jackson and his children.
Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
ABC7 Court News @ABC7Courts
Jurors have gone to lunch until 1:30 pm PT. Deliberation today was from 9:45 am until 11:30 am -- 1h45 minutes.
ABC7 Court News @ABC7Courts
By last Friday, jury had worked 6h30mins.
TOTAL SO FAR: 8 hours and 15 minutes
ABC7 Court News @ABC7Courts
Jurors have gone to lunch until 1:30 pm PT. Deliberation today was from 9:45 am until 11:30 am -- 1h45 minutes.
ABC7 Court News @ABC7Courts
By last Friday, jury had worked 6h30mins.
TOTAL SO FAR: 8 hours and 15 minutes
Fauve
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Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
Tygger. Thankyou for your summary. It has helped me to see things clearly as i haven't been able to follow the trial. Not sure if it is as simple as that for the jurors but it is for me
Tygger. Thankyou for your summary. It has helped me to see things clearly as i haven't been able to follow the trial. Not sure if it is as simple as that for the jurors but it is for me
Neverland_Valley
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maviefly;3912123 said:
En un país multicolor, nació una abeja bajo el sol.
Last edited:
rsggamer123
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Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
if the jury don't reach a verdict today I think it's more then likely they will come back with a guilty verdict.
if the jury don't reach a verdict today I think it's more then likely they will come back with a guilty verdict.
Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
there's no guilty verdict in a civil trial. it's either liable or not liable.
there's no guilty verdict in a civil trial. it's either liable or not liable.
rsggamer123
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Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
Ivy didn't delete any posts . The Admin did. That post and the reply to it was posted as a personal insult against members and or staff. That is NOT allowed on MJJC. You can discuss this topic without doing that. We would protect you from any insults or personal attacks as well. There is no reason to resort to that no matter what side of this issue you stand.
Thread cleaned. Please do not attack or personally insult members posting in this thread for their views or opinions. You can disagree and debate all you want without all that. Any further post of that nature will be deleted. We do not allow that on MJJC. Call it censorship all you want but that is the rules. We protect our members so that all can voice their opinions without being insulted or personally attacked singly or collectively. If you can not control yourself and are unable to discuss this topic without calling out the board, the staff or members in that manner then please leave the discussion. All views on this topic are welcome but please be respectful to each other when discussing it.
Thank you for your cooperation and as always if you have any questions or concerns PM do not reply or discuss moderation requests on the board.
Ivy didn't delete any posts . The Admin did. That post and the reply to it was posted as a personal insult against members and or staff. That is NOT allowed on MJJC. You can discuss this topic without doing that. We would protect you from any insults or personal attacks as well. There is no reason to resort to that no matter what side of this issue you stand.
Thread cleaned. Please do not attack or personally insult members posting in this thread for their views or opinions. You can disagree and debate all you want without all that. Any further post of that nature will be deleted. We do not allow that on MJJC. Call it censorship all you want but that is the rules. We protect our members so that all can voice their opinions without being insulted or personally attacked singly or collectively. If you can not control yourself and are unable to discuss this topic without calling out the board, the staff or members in that manner then please leave the discussion. All views on this topic are welcome but please be respectful to each other when discussing it.
Thank you for your cooperation and as always if you have any questions or concerns PM do not reply or discuss moderation requests on the board.
Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
ABC7 Court News @ABC7Courts
Jury back deliberating. They started at 3:22 pm PT. Not one question/request today.
---------------------------------------------
ps: I did not delete anyone's posts. and I'm pretty sure Admin's note above explains why any post was deleted. If that's not explanatory refer to MJJC rules which state http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/121356-MJJCommunity-Board-Rules-and-Posting-Guidelines
6. Personal insults/attacks on our members or MJJC will not be tolerated.
You are welcome to Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully. Critical conversation is expected when you disagree but do not be rude and please do not personally attack or insult our members individually or the board collectively. This includes personal insults, name calling, telling members to sit down, shut up etc., or questioning members fanhood if they don't agree with your view.
ABC7 Court News @ABC7Courts
Jury back deliberating. They started at 3:22 pm PT. Not one question/request today.
---------------------------------------------
ps: I did not delete anyone's posts. and I'm pretty sure Admin's note above explains why any post was deleted. If that's not explanatory refer to MJJC rules which state http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/121356-MJJCommunity-Board-Rules-and-Posting-Guidelines
6. Personal insults/attacks on our members or MJJC will not be tolerated.
You are welcome to Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully. Critical conversation is expected when you disagree but do not be rude and please do not personally attack or insult our members individually or the board collectively. This includes personal insults, name calling, telling members to sit down, shut up etc., or questioning members fanhood if they don't agree with your view.
Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
and that's it for today
ABC7 Court News @ABC7Courts
Jury has gone home for the day!!! So far, they have deliberated for 10 hours and 32 minutes. They return tomorrow at 9:30 am PT.
and that's it for today
ABC7 Court News @ABC7Courts
Jury has gone home for the day!!! So far, they have deliberated for 10 hours and 32 minutes. They return tomorrow at 9:30 am PT.
Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
Do I need to ban some members here,
Be aware this is my house, you abuse it your ass will be kicked out the door,
As founder owner president or what ever you want to call me, I have above and beyond all rights to do as I will here,
Last warning, comply with our rules or be gone - FOREVER
Do I need to ban some members here,
Be aware this is my house, you abuse it your ass will be kicked out the door,
As founder owner president or what ever you want to call me, I have above and beyond all rights to do as I will here,
Last warning, comply with our rules or be gone - FOREVER
Victory22
Proud Member
Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
By all accounts the jury members have been very attentive throughout the trial and they have taken detailed notes. They have only deliberated a little over eight hours in total and like the criminal trial I am expecting a verdict by weeks end.
By all accounts the jury members have been very attentive throughout the trial and they have taken detailed notes. They have only deliberated a little over eight hours in total and like the criminal trial I am expecting a verdict by weeks end.
Petrarose
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Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
^Yeah I agree. They have not deliberated for a long time. They need to go though documents to answer the first 5 questions, and reading and discussing takes time. 10 hours is not long. I am thinking that the mere fact that they came back early today, is because they want to get back to work and finish their obligation. I guess after 5 months, they don't want this process to linger unnecessarily.
Anyone remember how long Muarry's jury took? I forgot.
^Yeah I agree. They have not deliberated for a long time. They need to go though documents to answer the first 5 questions, and reading and discussing takes time. 10 hours is not long. I am thinking that the mere fact that they came back early today, is because they want to get back to work and finish their obligation. I guess after 5 months, they don't want this process to linger unnecessarily.
Anyone remember how long Muarry's jury took? I forgot.
Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
It's also a matter of how divided they are.
If they are strongly (9 or more) leaning towards one side they can come back with a verdict quickly. However if they are divided (6 versus 6) any voting would take longer as they need at least 9 votes to come to a decision on each question.
In other words if they are strongly leaning to either side they can spend an hour on each question and come to a quicker verdict but for example if they are divided they can spend 10 hours on a single question and the verdict can take longer.
I think it was something between 9 and 10 hours.
first day they started at 2 PM and send a note out at 3:05PM asking for supplies. so I'm thinking they spent the first hour by determining the foreperson and deciding how they will work. They also asked for TII DVD which is 2 hours. So if the subtract for those , they might have been deliberating for 7 hours and 32 minutes.
It's also a matter of how divided they are.
If they are strongly (9 or more) leaning towards one side they can come back with a verdict quickly. However if they are divided (6 versus 6) any voting would take longer as they need at least 9 votes to come to a decision on each question.
In other words if they are strongly leaning to either side they can spend an hour on each question and come to a quicker verdict but for example if they are divided they can spend 10 hours on a single question and the verdict can take longer.
I think it was something between 9 and 10 hours.
first day they started at 2 PM and send a note out at 3:05PM asking for supplies. so I'm thinking they spent the first hour by determining the foreperson and deciding how they will work. They also asked for TII DVD which is 2 hours. So if the subtract for those , they might have been deliberating for 7 hours and 32 minutes.
Electric_Mayweather
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Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
Personally, I don't think that The Jackson's will win, certainly from some of the revelations in this trial, AEG are indeed more responsible than I originally thought. In the end however, it was primarily due to Michael that he was in this situation. (The way those execs treated Michael's declining health however, was disgusting!)
Personally, I don't think that The Jackson's will win, certainly from some of the revelations in this trial, AEG are indeed more responsible than I originally thought. In the end however, it was primarily due to Michael that he was in this situation. (The way those execs treated Michael's declining health however, was disgusting!)
Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
It's the default way to set up a poll. It gives people the chance to honestly vote without being harassed about their vote. and btw "private poll" only means no one can see who voted what, otherwise the results are always public. Is that what you asked? If you are talking about who can take the poll, it's always members only and one vote per member. That's how the board is set up.
It's the default way to set up a poll. It gives people the chance to honestly vote without being harassed about their vote. and btw "private poll" only means no one can see who voted what, otherwise the results are always public. Is that what you asked? If you are talking about who can take the poll, it's always members only and one vote per member. That's how the board is set up.
qbee
Proud Member
Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
I was very suprised how the poll was split so even. I thought it would be a big majority for AEG not liable because the majority in this thread don't believe they should be held liable. But We have members across the board that don't debate in this thread that voted as well. So our members are about 50/50 on if they think AEG will be held liable. I almost voted they would be myself but that doesn't mean I think they should be.
I was very suprised how the poll was split so even. I thought it would be a big majority for AEG not liable because the majority in this thread don't believe they should be held liable. But We have members across the board that don't debate in this thread that voted as well. So our members are about 50/50 on if they think AEG will be held liable. I almost voted they would be myself but that doesn't mean I think they should be.
Tygger
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Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
Thank you. I did not know.
Actually, I am not surprised. Many people do not participate in online discussions because they are unfortunately and unnecessarily combative. Some have a difficult time separating a person from their views or beliefs and when disagreements happen. As a result some automatically become combative with the person whose views and/or beliefs they disagree with instead of understanding that they simply disagree with their view and/or belief.
Thank you. I did not know.
Actually, I am not surprised. Many people do not participate in online discussions because they are unfortunately and unnecessarily combative. Some have a difficult time separating a person from their views or beliefs and when disagreements happen. As a result some automatically become combative with the person whose views and/or beliefs they disagree with instead of understanding that they simply disagree with their view and/or belief.
Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG
I'm not that surprised because I as I always said truly believed this to be 50-50. Our poll demonstrates that. (ps: if the jury as divided as our poll is, this will be a long verdict watch). Not everyone comments on every topic and not everyone prefers to make their opinions public especially in heated topics like this. I do get a lot of PMs, emails or DMs from people saying they don't state some stuff because they have seen how others - most of the time me- being attacked. So a poll that doesn't show who voted what is a safe heaven to show what people feel without fearing any harassment about their opinions.
and fyi - I did not vote.
and now you are writing the story of my life in MJ fan community...
I'm not that surprised because I as I always said truly believed this to be 50-50. Our poll demonstrates that. (ps: if the jury as divided as our poll is, this will be a long verdict watch). Not everyone comments on every topic and not everyone prefers to make their opinions public especially in heated topics like this. I do get a lot of PMs, emails or DMs from people saying they don't state some stuff because they have seen how others - most of the time me- being attacked. So a poll that doesn't show who voted what is a safe heaven to show what people feel without fearing any harassment about their opinions.
and fyi - I did not vote.
and now you are writing the story of my life in MJ fan community...
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