Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[maviefly]

@maviefly: It wouldn't take away the fact that it was Murray's fault.
Why do you think AEG losing would suddenly stop all people that see Michael as a drug addict, a p*** or simply as "w**** j****"? No verdict would change that.

Yes it would. Step by step. The world would finally see Michael did his very best until the end. But there were forces against him, he couldn't do more. They'd notice him as a human being like in the very first days after he passed away.

His power was taken away by things like this:

'After the horrible events of 2005, I worked with him on This Is t as well. Michael was terribly loyal and so we were basically the same old crew: Karen Faye used to do his hair, Michael Bush did his clothing and I worked his voice. But then I left the project. I told Michael: „Mike, they offer me less money than they did twenty years ago. They want me to take less salary that buys two thirds less of what it used to buy. They are doing it with everybody.“ He said: „I know, they taking away all the people that I know and that I'm comfortable with. My securityblanket is disappearing. I don't know what I'm gonna do.“
Michael's voice trainer Seth Riggs in "A Life for Love"

edit:

You cannot take away Murray or forget about him. Regardless of whether AEG is found liable or not, Murray will still be guilty.

Sure. There will never be any doubt. But again: this is simply not the question in this case.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

they worked a full day friday but after breaks and such a full day is around 4 hours.

(they start around 10 AM and leave around 4:00 PM, they have a 90 min lunch and two 15 minute breaks)

Oh I see. I thought they began at 9am and end at 5pm.
_______________________________
About Seth^^ the economy is down, people are being paid less. Even Cirque had to close some of their shows or let some performers go because of the economy. I don't see any big mystery in Seth getting less pay. Then who is the "They" that Michael is talking about there ^^. Who did "they" take out of his life if he had his old team back with him? Branca, Delio, Faye, Ortega, Holly, Bush to name a few, were working with him again.

^^Sometimes I don't understand the type of logic being used. Maybe it is a new type of logic and no one taught it to me yet? How could Katherine winning, which means AEG hired Muarry, cause the public to think Michael did his best and think of him more as a human being? Something is not adding up.

No win in this case will make the public more sympathetic to Michael or see him more as a human being. It does not matter whether the winner is AEG or Katherine. Why, because it is the experts' opinions & facts brought into the case that will affect the public's opinion of Michael. If Katherine wins, the opinions & facts are still public. If AEG wins, the opinions & facts are still public.

It is those facts and opinions from the witnesses that the tabloids and media will use to trash Michael. The opinions or facts relating to money, debt, doctor shopping, addiction, his medical information, etc., are already out there and a verdict has not been made yet.

The only win that will have any good impact on Michael is an allegation win, because the charges are against Michael. In this AEG case the charges are against AEG. The family and AEG used Michael as the target. All his private business was the ammunition aimed at the target, who is Michael. Both did that, and this needs to be understood. Both decided the best way to win that case was to show up Micahel's faults & personal business.

Before this case went to trial, both sides had discovery, where they saw the evidence the other side would present. It was up to Katherine/Randy to say, "No I can't have my family member business all over the world like that. I must think of his children first of all and then his legacy. I won't do it. I am going to withdraw." The mere fact Katherine/Randy saw the evidence and went ahead with the trial shows they don't care about that, so no fan should be attacking any fan here for what is happening in that courtroom and it's impact. Fans did not bring this case to trial. Fans did not hire experts and witnesses and question them in court. Fans are not asking for money for Michael's death. In fact, fans have nothing to do with the outcome of this case.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

How long do they need to read the first five questions and take a vote ?

The more time they take deliberating the more likely they did find AEG responsible.

 

[xosweetseducingsighsxo]

Yes it would. Step by step. The world would finally see Michael did his very best until the end. But there were forces against him, he couldn't do more. They'd notice him as a human being like in the very first days after he passed away.

His power was taken away by things like this:

'After the horrible events of 2005, I worked with him on This Is t as well. Michael was terribly loyal and so we were basically the same old crew: Karen Faye used to do his hair, Michael Bush did his clothing and I worked his voice. But then I left the project. I told Michael: „Mike, they offer me less money than they did twenty years ago. They want me to take less salary that buys two thirds less of what it used to buy. They are doing it with everybody.“ He said: „I know, they taking away all the people that I know and that I'm comfortable with. My securityblanket is disappearing. I don't know what I'm gonna do.“
Michael's voice trainer Seth Riggs in "A Life for Love"

edit:


Sure. There will never be any doubt. But again: this is simply not the question in this case.

What?!?! The media and the public will finally stop looking at Michael like he's a freak? I'd like to see the day..but as their actions are showing..none of that is happening.

 

[elapentela]

Yes it would. Step by step. The world would finally see Michael did his very best until the end. But there were forces against him, he couldn't do more. They'd notice him as a human being like in the very first days after he passed away.

His power was taken away by things like this:

'After the horrible events of 2005, I worked with him on This Is t as well. Michael was terribly loyal and so we were basically the same old crew: Karen Faye used to do his hair, Michael Bush did his clothing and I worked his voice. But then I left the project. I told Michael: „Mike, they offer me less money than they did twenty years ago. They want me to take less salary that buys two thirds less of what it used to buy. They are doing it with everybody.“ He said: „I know, they taking away all the people that I know and that I'm comfortable with. My securityblanket is disappearing. I don't know what I'm gonna do.“
Michael's voice trainer Seth Riggs in "A Life for Love"

edit:


Sure. There will never be any doubt. But again: this is simply not the question in this case.

The world was and always will be in love with stubborn, knowing what he wants and unique Michael Jackson and not pathetic, helpless and controlled by AEG persona Jacksons presented MJ in this lawsuit. One of the biggest fascination about Michael's image was his mystery. Jacksons let it be taken away from him together with his dignity...

 

[Mechi]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Don't know... maybe I'm not the drama type person enough but seriously I do not see this trial changing anything that much... not Michaels reputation at least.
This trial was not even that much an eyeopener here on this board... I can't see that really.
And come on let's be honest... who else in this world is interested?
I don't think there is a general public interest in this. The media will try to catch it in making up sensational headlines afterwards but even though I do not see a huge interest in this coming... it will be news one day or two... and then it will go where most news go... thin air... it will not be remembered by most at the end of this year.
Maybe some guys in the music industry will have it in mind for a while, the fan community will for a while... but aside from that.
AEGlive will probably think about doing these kind of concert tour contracts and preparation again... but then again they'll never find another talent publicmagnet biggest star on the planet person like Michael Jackson ever again... so anything like this will never happen again.

I don't see any changes coming. Not in the general public and hopefully not in the income of the Jacksons also!

 

[jamba]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

IMO we can't make this trial go away or forget the info that has been presented. We have to look things squarely in the face and move on from there. We can't forget the evidence that AEG presented about MJ's past experience with various medications, including propofol. It's out there and will now never go away.Even if the jury awards $1.5 billion--or whatever her lawyers are asking for--even if they get every single dime they want, that info is not ever going to go away and is now out there in the public--all the drs. that testified.

Yes, it is very sad and damaging to MJ that the info now is out there--sad for me as a fan to know about it, and sad for his reputation, as it makes the old accusation that he was a "drug addict" seem to have a basis in reality. However, it is there and a finding for the plaintiffs will not change that fact. The evidence was presented by AEG b/c they were defending themselves. If this lawsuit hadn't happened, that info would not have come out.

There is a lot of minutia here in this lawsuit. Take MJ's weight--yes, he looked thin. We who saw TII noticed it of course as well. AEG noticed it too. They asked why--they wanted a nutritionist. Ortega asked why there wasn't someone "taking care of him on a daily basis" in his 6/20 email "trouble at the front." However, his parents and sibs also saw him during this time period and so they also noticed the weight loss, right? Nevertheless, Joe and Mrs J wanted MJ to do MORE not less concerts, right?? So this is why I am not in favor of her suit and her claim she wants to know what happened. I am sure if she thinks about it she knows what happened, starting with allowing his exploitation and abuse when he was 5 years old (and continuing through to his death IMO as far as using him for $$$ and pressuring him to support the entire family, including his parents.) There is a book title--Vultures' Picnic--IMO there were many vultures involved here--too many. And pretending otherwise is not helping.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Yes, it is very sad and damaging to MJ that the info now is out there--sad for me as a fan to know about it, and sad for his reputation, as it makes the old accusation that he was a "drug addict" seem to have a basis in reality. However, it is there and a finding for the plaintiffs will not change that fact. The evidence was presented by AEG b/c they were defending themselves. If this lawsuit hadn't happened, that info would not have come out.

AEG like the Jackson twisted the facts. He took propofol in 1996 and 2009 for insomnia , a desperate insomniac is hardly a drug addict, all witnesses who talked about propofol talked about his desperation to sleep , his notes confirmed his desperation to sleep , his motivation to take propofol, nothing at all suggest he was taking anything to fuel an addiction " his darkest secret" like AEG suggested they would prove . How did they prove it ? By bringing a series of people who were all aware of him using propofol . Hardly a secret ! He kept kloids from the public, even vitiligo he did not want to talk about nor lupus . His private life was his , keeping it from the public eye was his RIGHT not a dark secret .

Painkillers used for medical conditions we had not heard about before . AEG failed to mention them , actually they tried hard to keep the information from the jury , God forbid the jury heard the truth and sympathized with him.

The people who believe MJ was a child molester without paying attention to the details will always believe he was a drug addict. Some people enjoy being ignorant , it's as simple as that.

We have a coroner report that says MJ was in EXCELLENT state; healthier than most people his age. You choose to believe he was a drug addict , it's your own choice . Just don't assume everyone out there thinks like you .

 

[Beshlie]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

who else? who else? how about someone named Conrad Murray. the guy who is actually found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and put into a jail.

why is Conrad Murray conveniently forgotten or left out? why can't it be all Murray's fault?

You are right Ivy, you can't leave Murray out being as he is the one who killed Michael, if not directly with prof. then with neglect! And he STILL shows no remorse - sad excuse for a man.

 

[ivy]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

How long do they need to read the first five questions and take a vote ?

The more time they take deliberating the more likely they did find AEG responsible.

there's no set time.

let's recap what we know.

thursday they started deliberating around 2:00 PM, they sent a note out at 3:15 asking for supplies, movie and documents. So I think probably the first 1 hour 15 minutes were spent on determining the jury leader and how they will approach to the matter. they had 45 minutes more that day.

friday was 4 hrs and 15 minutes. it looks like they spent 2 hrs or so to watch TII.

So I don't see much time for discussion only around 3 hours

Also let's not forget that how much time it takes will depend on how strongly they feel about either side. For example they might have taken a vote on Q1 but the only way they can move forward or end it is if 9 of them agree on an answer, if they don't - for example if they are split 6 vs 6- then they need to go back to discussing the topic for a few hours and then take another vote.

 

[MIST]

His power was taken away by things like this:

'After the horrible events of 2005, I worked with him on This Is t as well. Michael was terribly loyal and so we were basically the same old crew: Karen Faye used to do his hair, Michael Bush did his clothing and I worked his voice. But then I left the project. I told Michael: „Mike, they offer me less money than they did twenty years ago. They want me to take less salary that buys two thirds less of what it used to buy. They are doing it with everybody.“ He said: „I know, they taking away all the people that I know and that I'm comfortable with. My securityblanket is disappearing. I don't know what I'm gonna do.“
Michael's voice trainer Seth Riggs in "A Life for Love"

Wasn´t it Michael who was going to pay for everything in the end?

 

[Victory22]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Conrad Murray was already found guilty. This is not the question we are talking about. We are talking about AEG and their responsibilities.

Have you ever thought about the public perception of the upcoming verdict, which can be more than counter productive, in case IF AEG would be found not liable?

Yes I have thought about the public's perception and that's why I was against this lawsuit from the beginning. A blind person should have been able to see that this trial would rip Michael to shreds in public. The only people who stand to benefit from this trial are the Jackson siblings and their kids.

 

[serendipity]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Have you ever thought about the public perception of the upcoming verdict, which can be more than counter productive, in case IF AEG would be found not liable?

You should ask the Jacksons that question, not the fans. Because we can't really do anything about it regardless of our opinions here. If his own family didn't think about it and didn't care, there's nothing we can do.

Some of us were against this whole trial from the get go, because MJ and his kids are the losers no matter who wins. Like Ivy mentioned above if AEG loses MJ will have a percentage of blame assigned to him and the jury may very well give him MORE blame than AEG. And it will be on the record.

 

[Petrarose]

Wasn´t it Michael who was going to pay for everything in the end?

Yeap.

You have 12 people looking at TII so that they can see something. After some fans heard Michael was drunk before the announcement, something that was not proved, the fans began saying they see Michael walking up the ramp with a shaky gait. I looked at TII over and over to see this shakiness and I never saw it. So I hope the jurors are not going to over-analyze what they see in TII or let their minds tell them they are seeing something that is not there.

Soundmind about taking long could be a Yes for AEG, they have not taken long. They could be looking at main facts that would make a yes or no for questions 1. You have 12 people looking, thinking, deciding. They are like us here who have different views.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Regardless of whether the doctor ordered propofol in April and/or Michael had his own stash in his bedroom; it could not be administered without lidocaine.

.

I am in the middle of your post, (and pages back), but before I forget it, because it's the 2nd time you have written this. Where did you get the idea that propofol "cannot" be administered without lidocaine?

 

[Neverland_Valley]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

What's going on in a nutshell.
No one here is against Michael Jackson.

Of course not openly. That would be much too obvious. But still it's obvious, if you pay attention to what some people write, that the interests of AEG (and mainly the interests of the Estate) are being defended here over Michael's interests. Some people here are also desperately trying to make the whole Jackson family look bad. And that in such an insistent way that just leds me to the opinion that the Jacksons can't be SOOO bad, as some people here want us to believe.

 

[jamba]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

AEG like the Jackson twisted the facts. He took propofol in 1996 and 2009 for insomnia , a desperate insomniac is hardly a drug addict, all witnesses who talked about propofol talked about his desperation to sleep , his notes confirmed his desperation to sleep , his motivation to take propofol, nothing at all suggest he was taking anything to fuel an addiction " his darkest secret" like AEG suggested they would prove . How did they prove it ? By bringing a series of people who were all aware of him using propofol . Hardly a secret ! He kept kloids from the public, even vitiligo he did not want to talk about nor lupus . His private life was his , keeping it from the public eye was his RIGHT not a dark secret .

Painkillers used for medical conditions we had not heard about before . AEG failed to mention them , actually they tried hard to keep the information from the jury , God forbid the jury heard the truth and sympathized with him.

The people who believe MJ was a child molester without paying attention to the details will always believe he was a drug addict. Some people enjoy being ignorant , it's as simple as that.

We have a coroner report that says MJ was in EXCELLENT state; healthier than most people his age. You choose to believe he was a drug addict , it's your own choice . Just don't assume everyone out there thinks like you .

This is what I wrote: it makes the old accusation that he was a "drug addict" seem to have a basis in reality. I did not say that I thought he was a drug addict. I am saying the evidence presented could lead SOME people who are not MJ fans to believe that. I don't think we have all the evidence to know exactly what, when, where the dependencies MJ had took place, if they did. I am just making a point that the info presented in the trial is out there with its damaging implications regardless of the verdict.

However, that said, a "desperate insomniac" who chooses propofol on a frequent basis CAN become addicted/dependent. Likewise, a person using painkillers for medical conditions CAN become dependent/addicted to those medications as well. MJ was aware of this--he wrote a song about it (Morphine).

However, in my post I did not express my personal opinion about his possible addiction/dependency issue. I simply said that the evidence presented could lead others to assume he was in fact addicted/dependent.

For me personally, it was sad to hear the struggles he had with painkillers, dependencies, insomnia and how these issues were never properly treated or resolved.

 

[Beshlie]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

I am in the middle of your post, (and pages back), but before I forget it, because it's the 2nd time you have written this. Where did you get the idea that propofol "cannot" be administered without lidocaine?

Lidocaine is given with Propofol because otherwise it is very painful as it enters your vein.

 

[gerryevans]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Of course not openly. That would be much too obvious. But still it's obvious, if you pay attention to what some people write, that the interests of AEG (and mainly the interests of the Estate) are being defended here over Michael's interests. Some people here are also desperately trying to make the whole Jackson family look bad. And that in such an insistent way that just leds me to the opinion that the Jacksons can't be SOOO bad, as some people here want us to believe.

deleted

 

[qbee]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Of course not openly. That would be much too obvious. But still it's obvious, if you pay attention to what some people write, that the interests of AEG (and mainly the interests of the Estate) are being defended here over Michael's interests. Some people here are also desperately trying to make the whole Jackson family look bad. And that in such an insistent way that just leds me to the opinion that the Jacksons can't be SOOO bad, as some people here want us to believe.

well not all members believe the same. Many will disagree they hold the Estates interest over that of Michael. But that would be a topic for another thread. MJJC allows all fans to express their beliefs opinions on the board. If you don't agree with someones opinion, you are welcome to express you disagree and express your own opinion of the topic or discussion. You are welcome to debate anyones opinion as long as you don't personally attack or insult members for their view. I can't speak for all members here and neither can you. So if you disagree or have another view, It's probably best to discuss or debate it with individuals. Rather than make blanket statements about some or all.

If you want to discuss the trial, with others and express your views about the trial , the Jackson's and AEG role in it in this thread, feel free. If you want to discuss your opinions about the Estate, there are plenty of threads you can do that as well. But to make blanket statements that some members are not supporting Michael as you feel they should (your personal opinion) isn't the way to go here. The best way is to state your view, not of them or their character for holding theirs, but your own view opinion of the topic being discussed in various threads.

 

[Beshlie]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

I have found out a few things about Michael that I didn't know beforehand from testimonies but, despite everything Michael was human and had his faults, and made some wrong decisions in his life, just as we all do. But does that mean that we, his fans who in some cases have loved him over many years, will turn on him? No of course not, so his reputation is perfectly safe with us. For those in the world who may start to rubbish his reputation because of what they may have recently found out about him, well, are they worthy of calling themselves Michael's fans? The difference is that we know his heart and that is of far more importance than gossip, whether some of it may have some truth in it or not. My love for Michael will go to the grave with me and nothing will ever change that.

I have no preference on how this case turns out so long as Michael's children don't suffer anymore than they already have from losing their father.

 

[serendipity]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Of course not openly. That would be much too obvious. But still it's obvious, if you pay attention to what some people write, that the interests of AEG (and mainly the interests of the Estate) are being defended here over Michael's interests. Some people here are also desperately trying to make the whole Jackson family look bad. And that in such an insistent way that just leads me to the opinion that the Jacksons can't be SOOO bad, as some people here want us to believe.

I can't think of many things the Jacksons have done that were in MJ's best interest (or his kids' best interest for that matter).

 

[Member Service]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Admin Note: Lets not derail the thread please. Try to stay on topic by discussing the trial issues and Jury deliberations. If you wish to discuss the MJ Estate there are other threads for that discussion or you can start your own.

 

[speechlesslove4michael]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

How long is the deliberations supposed to take?

 

[xosweetseducingsighsxo]

Of course not openly. That would be much too obvious. But still it's obvious, if you pay attention to what some people write, that the interests of AEG (and mainly the interests of the Estate) are being defended here over Michael's interests. Some people here are also desperately trying to make the whole Jackson family look bad. And that in such an insistent way that just leds me to the opinion that the Jacksons can't be SOOO bad, as some people here want us to believe.

Make the whole Jackson family 'look' bad? Lemme do a review over things said and done here:

•Joseph physically and emotionally abused Michael.
•Katherine is filing a lawsuit that not only exploited her son's personal, PERSONAL info, but his financial info too.
•Rebbie's friends with Stacey Brown (that jerk talks all sorts of crap about MJ.)
•Jermaine dissed his brother (I don't care if he wanted some 'attention' or not. You don't ever diss your little brother, especially during a horrible time in his life.)
•Latoya dissed her brother on LIVE TV! (Jack Gordon made her do it? I sympathize there, but dude..you're on TV..tell them that bastard is making you say that crap. Don't go with it...at least not without a fight.)
•Randy, Janet, Jerm, and Rebbie kidnapped Katherine last year.
•Tito, Marlon and Jackie are at fault because they didn't check on Michael the last years of his life, and they sure aren't protecting those beautiful kids.

^^ They make themselves look bad..no one's making this stuff up. That's not even bad, that's horrible.

AEG is liable, and quite frankly, every single Jackson is liable too. They are ALL responsible. I think this whole trial was unnecessary, and it opened one more wound that'll be hard to heal.

 

[xosweetseducingsighsxo]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

How long is the deliberations supposed to take?

^^ We have no idea. I think they only got 6.5 hours of deliberating in. But I could be wrong.

 

[speechlesslove4michael]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

^^ We have no idea. I think they only got 6.5 hours of deliberating in. But I could be wrong.

Thanks for the answer

 

[xosweetseducingsighsxo]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Thanks for the answer

Ah, it's no problem

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Lidocaine is given with Propofol because otherwise it is very painful as it enters your vein.

Yes, thanks, I know that. It is usually given before injection or mixed with the amount to be infused. My question was for the choice of words, "cannot be given without it".

 

[ivy]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

How long is the deliberations supposed to take?

as long as the jury needs. there's no set limit

Yes, thanks, I know that. It is usually given before injection or mixed with the amount to be infused. My question was for the choice of words, "cannot be given without it".

It's Tygger's style.