Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Vici]

The same doctor who was competent and fit simply did not understand why his patient deteriorated under his negligent administration of propofol. That deterioration fell under general care. The jurors were to look at the doctor’s actions during his two month employment by AEG not on his employment date of May 1st. It saddens me this case was lost due 10 jurors confusion.

Thats what Im saying to. I get that Murray looked good on papers. He had two clinics,was a cardiologist etc and AEG couldnt possibly know in beforehand that he would be so reckless with MJs life.

However, Murray watching his patient detoriate infront of his eyes and not helping him should fall under general care.

 

[Science Freak]

The verdict was actually already won by AEG; if Katherine only wanted to seek the truth, then why would she claim 40 billion dollar as compensation for the death of her son?
The only thing this case does, is damage to MJ and his legacy.
If Katherine did go to AEG asked them what happened, she might have find the truth without the whole media on this case.

And then the 40 billion; if she ever wanted money, never go in for that kind of money.

I don't take sides, because we all know the truth, and the legacy might continues if people stop with these trials.
Just for the sake of Michael.

 

[Korgnex]

*lol* I woke up, took a quick look at the highly increased number of pages and noticed "Huh? so much talk, I must have missed something... Oo" and voilà, first verdict reached. Panish is aiming for appeal, isn't he now?

 

[Tygger]

Thats what Im saying to. I get that Murray looked good on papers. He had two clinics,was a cardiologist etc and AEG couldnt possibly know in beforehand that he would be so reckless with MJs life.

However, Murray watching his patient detoriate infront of his eyes and not helping him should fall under general care.

It was not necessary in this trial for AEG to know about propofol. It is logical to wonder why a fit and competent doctor did not understand why his patient was deteriorating in front of his eyes during his two months of employment. That is not hindsight. I believe these 10 jurors were a bit confused.

 

[Vici]

CONRAD MURRAY
Delusional Ex-Doc Thinks
MJ DEATH VERDICT VINDICATES HIM

Michael Jackson's former doctor and convicted killer, Conrad Murray, must be getting pretty strong meds behind bars ... because he thinks the jury in the wrongful death trial proved he's a good physician -- he's dead wrong.

TMZ obtained audio of Murray leaving a message for someone shortly after the judge announced AEG Live was not accountable for MJ's death -- and on the recording, Murray says the decision proves, "I have never been and never will be an inept physician."

Murray's missing one giant point ... which is that the jury really only said they felt he was fit to do what AEG hired him to do -- be a good general practitioner for MJ. The part about pumping Michael full of Propofol every night was never relevant to the questions the jury was asked to answer.

In fact, the jury foreman made it clear they were NOT saying they felt Murray was ethical -- and said the verdict might have been different if ethics were in play during this trial.

Nonetheless, Murray feels vindicated ... so, you gotta hear him gushing and praising God, the jury, and the justice system ... this time, anyway.

http://m.tmz.com/#Article/2013/10/0...-michael-jackson-wrongful-death-trial-verdict

 

[MIST]

Everyday we can all do justice for Michael. And I believe that this is much more important to him that any rulings that will be worked out in court.

I agree

So let us all keep on standing by Michael in every deed we do every day in our life. And let us keep on trying to inspire others to do the same. This is continued justice for Michael.... and it is justice for any others who have suffered under separation, alienation and hatred - and what follows from these poor qualities of the immature human race.

Let us keep the faith. Let us stand shoulder by shoulder. Let us be strong hearted warriors of Light. And let us help each other help peace, love and harmony to prevail.

This is justice for Michael.

I use to compare us to the hummingbird in this video
http://youtu.be/IGMW6YWjMxw
Let us do the best we can to heal the world.

 

[Neverland Valley Princess]

I think the jurors answered the first two questions correctly. AEG did hire Murray but at the time, they had no reason to know that he was not competent to do the job he was hired to do. The question then is did AEG become negligent in allowing Murray (their employee) to continue to care for Michael when it was clear to them that Michael was not being well cared for? The emails and conversations that came out during the trial prove that AEG has huge concerns over Michael's condition (we all know that it was their bottom line and not Michael's health that was the true issue, but nonetheless serious concerns were expressed over Michael appearing drunk and/or drugged). I think it's reasonable to state that no competent doctor would allow their patient to fall into that state if they were treating them well and we knew AEG had serious concerns so should they have looked into what was going on in more detail taken some action and not allowed Murray to fob them off with some "I'm the doctor, I know what I'm doing" line or somesuch. Was this failure to act when it was clear something was not right, negligent?

Not that I'm particularly keen for the Jacksons to make money off Michael's death (just my opinion) but I'm a little surprised that the issue of AEG becoming negligent through their inaction was not explored, especially because trying to argue that AEG were negligent in hiring Murray was always going to be a huge hurdle - what reason did they have at the outset to think he was not competent to prove general care?

 

[PurdyYungThang84]

CONRAD MURRAY
Delusional Ex-Doc Thinks
MJ DEATH VERDICT VINDICATES HIM

Michael Jackson's former doctor and convicted killer, Conrad Murray, must be getting pretty strong meds behind bars ... because he thinks the jury in the wrongful death trial proved he's a good physician -- he's dead wrong.

TMZ obtained audio of Murray leaving a message for someone shortly after the judge announced AEG Live was not accountable for MJ's death -- and on the recording, Murray says the decision proves, "I have never been and never will be an inept physician."

Murray's missing one giant point ... which is that the jury really only said they felt he was fit to do what AEG hired him to do -- be a good general practitioner for MJ. The part about pumping Michael full of Propofol every night was never relevant to the questions the jury was asked to answer.

In fact, the jury foreman made it clear they were NOT saying they felt Murray was ethical -- and said the verdict might have been different if ethics were in play during this trial.

Nonetheless, Murray feels vindicated ... so, you gotta hear him gushing and praising God, the jury, and the justice system ... this time, anyway.

http://m.tmz.com/#Article/2013/10/0...-michael-jackson-wrongful-death-trial-verdict

The man is full-blown disturbed :blink:. Uhhhh historically, his death is YOUR fault, f-cking numskull....

 

[Vici]

The question then is did AEG become negligent in allowing Murray (their employee) to continue to care for Michael when it was clear to them that Michael was not being well cared for? The emails and conversations that came out during the trial prove that AEG has huge concerns over Michael's condition (we all know that it was their bottom line and not Michael's health that was the true issue, but nonetheless serious concerns were expressed over Michael appearing drunk and/or drugged). I think it's reasonable to state that no competent doctor would allow their patient to fall into that state if they were treating them well and we knew AEG had serious concerns so should they have looked into what was going on in more detail taken some action and not allowed Murray to fob them off with some "I'm the doctor, I know what I'm doing" line or somesuch. Was this failure to act when it was clear something was not right, negligent?

Sorry, passy, it's not a fact, it's your interpretation. To ask 'was murray qualified'ie got the doctor's training, is not in the jury instructions, it is 'was murray fit or competent to do general health duties'. To me the words in the jury instructions suggested you would be considering how he practised his doctor's training on mj - and to me he showed incompetence in basic care eg with the evident decline in mj's wellbeing, the weight loss, the insomnia. Anyway, the jury obviously didn't see it that way and they're the important ones in all this but don't tell me the jury don't do any interpreting, that's their job. If we're discussing a question, it means there is interpretation.

Yes..

 

[Bubs]

Shout out to Randy, get a job loser

Btw, I wonder if his next tweet is going to be "IT'S NOT OVER YET"?

Taj Jackson ?@tajjackson3 10h
Thank you guys for all your support. Unfortunately there will be no closure for my family #bigmoneywinsagain AEG

Astonishing! Taj says big money wins again, but weren't Jackson family themselves after that big money?
I wonder if they had won, would there had been closure for them?

 

[Beshlie]

Just a question...

I get Murray was hired as Michaels regular doctor but Murray must have seen Michael detoriating as well. He knew AEG were on him (meeting at the house indicated they were alarmed of what was going on with Michael), AEG talked with him and Dileo asked him to take a blood test on Michael. He knew what he was doing.

He continued to give MJ propofol and there are no evidence he stopped with that. Murray did not pull out and refer Michael to a specialist. Isnt that what a doctor being there for general care should have been able to do in any case??? To take care of the patient?

In an ideal world Vici. But money talks louder than morals.

 

[TheSilentOne]

As much as I didn't like that this trial even took place, in the last few days I was hoping the Jacksons will at least get some money out of this ... situation.
Had the Jacksons get really huge amount of money, Michaels children could have it much easier when they grow up (and even now).
Sometimes I hear people here say that they are looking forward to when the children grow up and detach themselves from the family - IMO it doesn't work that way. You need family even when you are a grown up, and the Jacksons are the only family they have. They will only be again in Michaels position.
Now that the Jacksons didn't get the money they wanted (and I'm sure they need huge amout of money to run their large family), they have to come up with new ways how to use Michael and his children for money. But never will they ever have the chance to get this amout of money from one scheme, which could have been their final.

 

[Mechi]

CONRAD MURRAY
Delusional Ex-Doc Thinks
MJ DEATH VERDICT VINDICATES HIM

Michael Jackson's former doctor and convicted killer, Conrad Murray, must be getting pretty strong meds behind bars ... because he thinks the jury in the wrongful death trial proved he's a good physician -- he's dead wrong.

TMZ obtained audio of Murray leaving a message for someone shortly after the judge announced AEG Live was not accountable for MJ's death -- and on the recording, Murray says the decision proves, "I have never been and never will be an inept physician."

Murray's missing one giant point ... which is that the jury really only said they felt he was fit to do what AEG hired him to do -- be a good general practitioner for MJ. The part about pumping Michael full of Propofol every night was never relevant to the questions the jury was asked to answer.

In fact, the jury foreman made it clear they were NOT saying they felt Murray was ethical -- and said the verdict might have been different if ethics were in play during this trial.

Nonetheless, Murray feels vindicated ... so, you gotta hear him gushing and praising God, the jury, and the justice system ... this time, anyway.

http://m.tmz.com/#Article/2013/10/0...-michael-jackson-wrongful-death-trial-verdict

Narcistic personality disorder if you ask me. Usually I refrain from diagnosing from a distance but this is just too much jumping in front of everybody. I just hope he's never allowed to work as a doctor again! He'd be a danger! He'll always blame others for his own faults.

 

[Bubs]

Putnam said he hoped there would be no appeal.
“Sadly, the children have been through a lot,” he said, “and that has to be taken into consideration in the decision on how much longer to continue with this.”

Earlier Putnam said that this case should have never gone to trial, which I wholeheartedly agree with, and now he says he hopes no appeal, and again I agree with him. Katherine said that she wanted know what happened, she got her wish and more, there is no reason to go for appeal, unless the ultimate reason is to get money at any cost.

 

[Beshlie]

Does this mean Randy Jackson has got to get a job lol.

Hang on Gaz...just seen a pig fly over here! .

 

[Bubs]

Narcistic personality disorder if you ask me. Usually I refrain from diagnosing from a distance but this is just too much jumping in front of everybody. I just hope he's never allowed to work as a doctor again! He'd be a danger! He'll always blame others for his own faults.

I have said last 4 years that he is narcistic sosiopath, and I also said 2 days ago that we will be hearing from him after the verdict as another unanswered phone message finds its way to tabloids.

In 3 weeks time, there won't be any unaswered phone messages. He'll be giving interviews left and right, and will put the whole blame on Michael.

 

[Vici]

In an ideal world Vici. But money talks louder than morals.

In other words, Conflict of interest.

 

[LastTear]

I have some suggestions for jobs he could possibly be good at!

1. Science fiction writer
2. Central American kidnapper/Extortionist
3. Motivational speaker and organizer of the mentally weak
4. Spin doctor

He is in Minister school, oh wait - yeah you are right that covers all the above.

Note to the board: I am allowed my beliefs as well.

 

[Korgnex]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Yes, Yes, Yes!!!! FACTS WON, NOT EMOTIONS!!!

I second this. And you know what? Because of emotions people have been targeting Ivy for some time now, just yesterday her haters wrote an article that says Ivy would be an "Estate-sponsored PR plant secretly manipulating fans"...

As I'm usually called a "Sony spy", I can understand people's obsession with one nickname.
Gosh, those fan wars are so pathetic. If they only realized how much time they are losing to think about all this BS, telling oneself to know exactly the reasoning of one person and they would have "exposed" that person as some sort of spy or whatelse they could come up with.


And about emotions, I can understand what SOME (not all) people feel:

• MJ family = MJ
• Philipps/Gongaware + that "freak" dude [can't remember the name] = whole AEG ==> AEG = evil bad company
• Mesereau recommending Pansih to KJ ==> justice
• the trial would be about "the search for the truth"

However the reality is this:

• MJ's family consists of various individuals that had their own lifes and their "lion cubs" leeching philosophy is what they revealed themselves as well as their actions speak for themselves (Randy eg being a convicted criminal), they are NOT MJ
• Philipps/Gongaware + that "freak" dude [can't remember the name] are 3 individuals and NOT AEG Live as a whole, their private emails are not making AEG Live an evil bad company, the trial showed that some were suspecting Klein and that they consulted with MJ and Murray about his health
• Mesereau as a good lawyer saw a chance of winning this and thus recommended another good lawyer to KJ ==> lawyers aren't about justice in the first place (the court is!), they are representing the interests of their clients
• the trial was about money

 

[Bubs]

Juror No. 9 Kevin Smith said AEG showed it had no real control over Murray, who was handpicked by Jackson.
“AEG wanted another doctor but Michael said `no,’ ” Smith said. “If he [Jackson] couldn’t admit to his own mother that he was addict to get help, he wasn’t going to get a doctor that would help him.”

Can somebody tweet this to Randy, and he can show it to his mother.
I quess some jurors believed that crap Randy and KJ testified, and formed their opinion of MJ being addict that he could even admit that to his own mother. Randy's plan as usual backfired.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

I second this. And you know what? Because of emotions people have been targeting Ivy for some time now, just yesterday her haters wrote an article that says Ivy would be an "Estate-sponsored PR plant secretly manipulating fans"...

As I'm usually called a "Sony spy", I can understand people's obsession with one nickname.
Gosh, those fan wars are so pathetic. If they only realized how much time they are losing to think about all this BS, telling oneself to know exactly the reasoning of one person and they would have "exposed" that person as some sort of spy or whatelse they could come up with.


And about emotions, I can understand what SOME (not all) people feel:

• MJ family = MJ
• Philipps/Gongaware + that "freak" dude [can't remember the name] = whole AEG ==> AEG = evil bad company
• Mesereau recommending Pansih to KJ ==> justice
• the trial would be about "the search for the truth"

However the reality is this:

• MJ's family consists of various individuals that had their own lifes and their "lion cubs" leeching philosophy is what they revealed themselves as well as their actions speak for themselves (Randy eg being a convicted criminal), they are NOT MJ
• Philipps/Gongaware + that "freak" dude [can't remember the name] are 3 individuals and NOT AEG Live as a whole, their private emails are not making AEG Live an evil bad company, the trial showed that some were suspecting Klein and that they consulted with MJ and Murray about his health
• Mesearu as a good lawyer saw a chance of winning this and thus recommended another good lawyer to KJ ==> lawyers aren't about justice in the first place (the court is!), they are representing the interests of their clients
• the trial was about money

Great post and fully agree with it.

Btw, I love you siggy:
No person should be falsely accused, as Michael Jackson was, of a crime they did NOT commit.

 

[Selene]

I hated this trial from the start.I can't really say I'm "happy" it's over,cause all I feel is sadness and anger at the fact it ever happened.
The jury foreman said what most of us have known for a while : there were no winners.
But in trying to win both sides were eager to sacrifice Michael,his reputation and his privacy.Not for justice or knowledge,for money.
The juror also said : "somebody had to die for us to be here....it was really a tragic situation.".But Michael's death was not the reason of this trial,it was his family's greed,the same family that refused to seek restitution from the man convicted of killing him.That is also a tragedy.

I felt AEG was liable,but I understand why the verdict has been this way,as I always thought questions 2 & 3 were tricky ones and could go either way depending on how you take them.

It wasn't an easy decision for the jurors either,it seems :

After two days of deliberations, jurors decided that AEG did hire Murray but that the doctor was not "unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired."

“Now, that doesn’t mean we felt he was ethical and maybe had the word ‘ethical’ been in the question, it could’ve been a different outcome,” Barden said.

Barden repeatedly referred to the questions, calling them “confusing” and saying the group wrangled with the language.

“There were several votes taken, minds were changed more than once,” Barden said.

After three or four votes, the jury decided unanimously that AEG hired Murray. They decided 10-2 that the doctor was not unfit to do the job for which he was hired. They needed nine votes to carry.

“In the end, (Murray) was very unethical,” Barden said. “He did something he shouldn’t have done. But again, if you read the question, it didn’t refer to – it referred to the job that he had to do, what he was hired for.”

The juror cited Murray’s medical license and graduation from an accredited college as evidence he was capable of performing the duties of a general practitioner.

 

[Korgnex]

even though murrayy wasnt hired to pump propofol into mjs system, as a general doctor he saw michael detoriate and had to get him help. he didnt. so how was he a competent and fit doctor, even as a general doctor in this context???? please someone explains this to me.

That was something I explained earlier in this thread.

If Murray was hired for general medical care, him causing manslaughter of MJ wouldn't make him unfit or incompetent for performing the work for which he was hired.
However I think, like you, some jurors also might not know these legal terms here:
"unfit" means Murray was not skilled for the particular work he was hired (eg technical knowledge)
"incompetent" means Murray was missing a legal prerequisite for the particular work he was hired (a qualification)

Moral or ethical concerns (eg financial situation) are irrelevant for those terms.
Legally, he was fit and competent to provide general medical care (he was not for the propofol infusion).

That's a sore spot for Panish because he knows too well, there's no law that requires anyone to do a background check. Doing a background check is a wise thing for many businesses but it's nothing the law dictates you to do.

And there is a good reason why the question was NOT if Murray was unethical (because you'd answer this with YES):
Murray's unethical actions were a breach of his Hippocratic oath and you can't establish a negligence for anyone else but Murray himself for breaking it.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Verdict Watch - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Ivy those of us who voted Not Liable, do we get a prize, like a ticket each to go see the Unity Tour or to see the Jackson men & Janet perform in Russia?

That's a prize?

I have friends who were totally NOT fans, and who saw TII. They came away transformed, did not realize how great he was. Whatever else is the case, that film brought him to the wider-world.

Those of us who have "watched" him for decades might have seen other things in TII, but for those new to him, it only widened his fan-base, and that was a very good thing. .

This is true, TII brought new fans to this fan base, so many people said to me how they couldn't believe how awesome he was in TII - how they didn't know he was that good a performer, my reply was to remind them that TII was only a rehearsal and the real thing would totally blow their minds. But of course inside I could see something else.

***************************************
I'm pleased that the jury stopped at question 2 - it was the sticking point for me, at the point they decided AEG hired Murray they would need to look at his job description - the fact that Murray was unethical and incompetent in secret does not make AEG negligent.

I don't believe that this verdict puts any more responsibility on Michael than was there already, yes he wanted the treatment, but that has always been the case.

I don't know what planet Murray and his team come from but in actual fact this verdict puts the blame back firmly at his door. He chose to overstep the boundaries of his employment, he was the professional who took an oath to do no harm, he was the person who abused his position, he was the person who gave medical treatment that he wasn't qualified to give.

However, if the jury had carried on answering questions then I think they would have put a much higher than the 20% responsibility Katherine gave him.

 

[LastTear]

That was something I explained earlier in this thread.



And there is a good reason why the question was NOT if Murray was unethical (because you'd answer this with YES):
Murray's unethical actions were a breach of his Hippocratic oath and you can't establish a negligence for anyone else but Murray himself for breaking it.

But isn't that still with hindsight? There was nothing to suggest at the point that AEG hired Murray that he could be unethical.

 

[Bubs]

"However, the family apparently won’t be slapped with mammoth legal bills as the deal they established was a “pay if we win” case, and there is a good chance they may appeal.”
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...ed-by-verdict-in-son-wrongful-death-case-was/

I know that Panish advertises that they take cases by no win- no pay bases, but how about other attourneys that they added to legal team, like KJ own Perry S and that woman (cannot remember her name) who was involved last summers grannynapping episode? I wonder if they try to send billing to the estate? I certainly hope that the executors denies such a payments. It would be so wrong if at the end MJ had to pay for that he was trashed by his own family during the trial.
Janet can pay those bills with Randy and others who were after big payment.


Putnam said early on that after verdict that it won't be over. I wonder as they too spent lots of money to pay their experts, and I don't see that they are going to pay those from their own pockets, how they are going to recoup that money?
Does anyone know how it works in cases like this. Plaintiffs side pays defenses costs?

 

[LastTear]

From the news thread.

So Jackson family matriarch Katherine – as well as the late entertainer’s three children – lose out big time.

“They were counting on at least $2 billion, so there's no question that those who wanted this suit are devastated,” a source closely connected to the Jackson family told FOX411. “Katherine wanted the money because the Jacksons don't have what people think they do. She gets money from the estate as does Prince, Paris, and Blanket, but once Katherine dies, she has nothing to leave her children, Jermaine, Jackie, etc… There is now going to be a lot of in-house fighting.

Any guesses which family insider said this? :busted:

 

[Korgnex]

But isn't that still with hindsight? There was nothing to suggest at the point that AEG hired Murray that he could be unethical.

I agree. As you know some suggested they found out about what went on though.

 

[Bubs]

That's a prize?

However, if the jury had carried on answering questions then I think they would have put a much higher than the 20% responsibility Katherine gave him.

Not a prize but punishment :bugeyed
I thought too that if they get to as far as percentages, MJ part would have been more than 20% considering what 1 jurors said:
Juror No. 9 Kevin Smith said AEG showed it had no real control over Murray, who was handpicked by Jackson.
“AEG wanted another doctor but Michael said `no,’ ” Smith said. “If he [Jackson] couldn’t admit to his own mother that he was addict to get help, he wasn’t going to get a doctor that would help him.”


Source for that article sounds like Stacy B.
He is right about this "There is now going to be a lot of in-house fighting."

Thats why twitter is been quiet because they are fighting, and when to dust settles, they come up with united front and announce they go on tour to honour the lost brothers or something similar. When that falls flat, they go after kids and make them to promote something.

 

[Korgnex]

About Meserau: He's making a few mistakes.
From 3:30 onwards he says that AEG Live hired Murray. OK. But then he says he thought AEG Live hired him for treatment of MJ's sleep disorder. And that's something the plaintiffs failed to prove. Only MJ could have hired him for that. And the jury got it right: If AEG Live hired him, it could only have been for general medical care and we know how to answer question 2 in that regard (as "unfit" or "incompetent" has nothing to do with MJ having died or Murray being an unethical doctor breaking his Hippocratic oath).
He also says that Murray was an employee HOWEVER the judge made it clear that Murray could only be an individual contractor. Mesereau must have missed that info (and Panish hoping that jury wouldn't understand it because that would have become of importance for answering question 3).