Walgrens powerful bashing of Dr.Murray - the logic and reasoning behind it?

Lesky

Guests
Greetings.

I have just read the entire summary thread and have a question about the following segment:


Walgren mentions Murray's timeline:

"According to Murray’s own timeline, that he let MJ lie there for over an hour not breathing. Or he could be lying about his timeline, and Murray is not being truthful about his timeline. Third option, is that Dr. Murray is so utterly so incompetent and reckless, that he has no idea what he gave him or when."

What facts is he basing these 3 alternatives from? I am somewhat confused on how it can three different scenarios?

Somehow, the quote made me laugh, but in reality its an extremly sad quote...

Thanks
L
 
Murray has given several different timelines.that is what walgren is quoting
 
Greetings.
Walgren mentions Murray's timeline:

What facts is he basing these 3 alternatives from? I am somewhat confused on how it can three different scenarios?

Somehow, the quote made me laugh, but in reality its an extremly sad quote...

Thanks
L
In my opinion these are the facts for the 3 alternatives given by Walgren:

1- "He let MJ lie there for over an hour not breathing". FACTS: MJ was till on the bed when paramedics were called at 12:21. Murray declared to the police on 27June that he had found him not breathing at around 11 am, so that makes over an hour if we took that time as the real one.

2- "Murray could be lying". FACTS: Murray had previously told detectives at the hospital that he had found him not breathing at around 12 noon. (AR p 2). At the preliminary hearing we also learnt that at 11:51 Murray was on the phone with one of his girlfriends and that she heard some commotion and Murray stopped abruptly the conversation though did not hung up (she could still hear less audible noises as if the phone was in Murray's pocket). Moreover, we have the paramedics testimony that MJ had already gone by the time they arrived (12:26) between 20 minutes and 1 hour earlier.
- So we can infer that Murray was lying when he said it was at 11 (and not at 12) when he observed MJ was not breathing. Why did he lie?? Maybe to stick to the 10:40 alleged final dose given by him?? In my opinion it's likely. Murray has changed his statements several times (through his lawers and his new witnesses) BUT, they still CLING to "his 10:40 alleged final dose" so as to give room to their theory that he was not the one who gave the lethal dose, that it would have been very close in time to the moment of the tragedy. (Chernoff even said in the preliminary, "my client could not have been, because he was on the phone"!!! :no:).

3- "He has no idea what he gave him or when". FACTS: He also lied in too many other things (amounts of lorazepam and times allegedly given for example...) that could easily be demonstrated.

Personally I think alternative 2 is the most likely. Murray lied ON PURPOSE, it wasn't just a mistake as his lawyers said last year. He lied when he said he gave only 25mg of propofol, he knew they would detect higher levels in the AR but his strategy from the 27 June 2009 was to blame the victim or someone else. He also lied about the time he realised the tragedy in order to stick to the around 10:40 "last dose by Murray given only by syringe of 10cc, never never never used a drip"!!!:no: less in conflict with his busy activity on the phone or the lack of long tubing found attached to the medical evidence he attempted to hide (the opened 100ml propofol vial upside down inside an intravenous bag with a slit).


Let's hope justice is being done:yes: and DA shows all Murray's inconsistencies and his guilt is COMPLETELY proven, not leaving any minor aspect aside at all!!
 
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Thanks for the replys guys. I have begin to read all the threads in this forum to catch up with whats going on.

Shouldn´t Murray go down for just administering propofol and lying to the doctors and paramedics etc? To me it seems the bastard broke so many laws that he should get 10 years, but obviously thats not the case.
 
Yeah, but since no one besides Murray is stupid enough to administer propofol outside of a hospital, and since it is not a narcotic there was no reason for a law to be made saying it was illegal to use it else where... I'm sure now there will be...

That makes me lean more towards the possibility of murder.. it's just to convenient of a loop hole for me.
 
smoothlugar did a wonderful job with it. The following is my understanding. First of all they are using 2 statements that came from Murray. One is that he administered the last dosage around 10:40 and second is that he found Michael non-responsive around 12:00 only after leaving the room for 2 minutes.

- According to Murray’s own timeline, that he let MJ lie there for over an hour not breathing : (Here they go with the last administration of 10:40 statement) Murray said that the last time he gave Michael propofol was 10:40 AM. As the prosecution doesn't believe Michael self administered propofol and propofol is a fast acting drug they believe that Michael died shortly after Murray gave him propofol. That would make his time of death around 10:40 and as the help wasn't called around 12:00 he would lie there not breathing over an hour.

- Or he could be lying about his timeline, and Murray is not being truthful about his timeline: (Here they are going with found him non responsive around 12:00) Again going with fast acting drug and Murray administering the drug if we are to believe that Murray only left the room for 2 minutes and found Michael non-responsive when he came back it means that Murray had to administer him a dosage close to that time. Here they argue that he's lying about the last administration being at 10:40

- Third option, is that Dr. Murray is so utterly so incompetent and reckless, that he has no idea what he gave him or when : And I believe this is self explanatory. If we are to think that Murray isn't lying and that knowing that the above timeline doesn't fit , then simply Murray is clueless. For example the 10:40 administration could be at 11:40 while he was chatting up on the phone or busy with text messaging.
 
ivy;3383106 said:
smoothlugar did a wonderful job with it. The following is my understanding. First of all they are using 2 statements that came from Murray. One is that he administered the last dosage around 10:40 and second is that he found Michael non-responsive around 12:00 only after leaving the room for 2 minutes.

- According to Murray’s own timeline, that he let MJ lie there for over an hour not breathing : (Here they go with the last administration of 10:40 statement) Murray said that the last time he gave Michael propofol was 10:40 AM. As the prosecution doesn't believe Michael self administered propofol and propofol is a fast acting drug they believe that Michael died shortly after Murray gave him propofol. That would make his time of death around 10:40 and as the help wasn't called around 12:00 he would lie there not breathing over an hour.

- Or he could be lying about his timeline, and Murray is not being truthful about his timeline: (Here they are going with found him non responsive around 12:00) Again going with fast acting drug and Murray administering the drug if we are to believe that Murray only left the room for 2 minutes and found Michael non-responsive when he came back it means that Murray had to administer him a dosage close to that time. Here they argue that he's lying about the last administration being at 10:40

- Third option, is that Dr. Murray is so utterly so incompetent and reckless, that he has no idea what he gave him or when : And I believe this is self explanatory. If we are to think that Murray isn't lying and that knowing that the above timeline doesn't fit , then simply Murray is clueless. For example the 10:40 administration could be at 11:40 while he was chatting up on the phone or busy with text messaging.

I personally think Muarry knows the timeline, but by now he probably hs lied to himself so much that he is starting to belive his own lies. I still think he knows what he did, he is just trying to convince himself that he did nothing wrong. Hopefully the time line becomes clearer during the trial......
 
Yeah he knew what he did and when.that fact hes intentionally lied so much to me is confirmation of intent to cover things up. Telling the medics and drs diff stories about what he gave and when.the truth only has one story
 
I personally think Muarry knows the timeline, but by now he probably hs lied to himself so much that he is starting to belive his own lies. I still think he knows what he did, he is just trying to convince himself that he did nothing wrong. Hopefully the time line becomes clearer during the trial......

I agree. And to me personally, it's no wonder why Murray lawyers are fishing around trying to find a defense for him. Once the investigation started and he figured that he'd better get himself a team of lawyers, who knows what he told them that made them want to defend him? To my knowledge, we only have Murray's word on everything because there was nobody else even upstairs let alone in that bedroom when he gave Michael the Propofol. There is just something about this that is not adding up to me. This is all just my opinion.
 
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I personally think Muarry knows the timeline, but by now he probably hs lied to himself so much that he is starting to belive his own lies. I still think he knows what he did, he is just trying to convince himself that he did nothing wrong. Hopefully the time line becomes clearer during the trial......

I think Murray knows exactly what he did as well and he knows it resulted in the death of Michael Jackson. He is a desperate liar and sociopath who will say and do anything to keep his license and stay out of jail.
 
I think Murray knows exactly what he did as well and he knows it resulted in the death of Michael Jackson. He is a desperate liar and sociopath who will say and do anything to keep his license and stay out of jail.

Exactly Victory!

He knows what he gave MJ.. This fool has been a medical doctor for over 20 years, there's no way he's stupid at all.. Giving a supposedly healthy man a concoction of sedatives and anesthesia you would think he would know what could happen. Like I said he didn't just get out of medical school last year.. He's been a doctor for over 20 years and he knows what those drugs do and can do to a patient's breathing. He wasn't even monitoring MJ's heart rate, breathing or oxygen levels at all. He gave MJ anesthesia at home without watching him, without monitoring equipment and he says he did nothing wrong.. He is a killer, a sociopath, and an evil man.
 
what i was wondering when i read it all was, did murray the other nights make note what he give when and how much? Because i believe doctors nurses always report what they give when because its dangerous the only do it on mind.. so if that were the case on 25 he also knew what he did..

Also the 2 min out bother me.. if michael did, i dont believe this, gave the propofol somehow to himself in those 2 min and murray would be back michael could easily been saved in my opinion because the distress was just happening. Also the paramedics found michael on the bed right?? if that is the case:
He was told on the phone we all heared it to put michael on the floor a hard surface*dont know how to spell it*
why didnt they do that?

Also what bother me is he said he gave michael 25 mg at once??? that mean michael would be awake in 5 min i believe because i anestiologist told me once it doesnt work in once because the body breaks the prop down. there for it must be in drip form.
If michael died not doing it to himself, there for it must be the last dosis murray gave him, if that was at 10.40. he must have been in distress right away.
So for me what i believe is that the 10.40 may be truth, and that murray gave the dosis, how much mg?, and left immidiatly to further talk to his phoneconversation or text messages. when he came back at 1200 michael was already 1 hour in distress and died there... thats why maybe he didnt take michael to the floor?

If the timeline is wrong about the 10.40 maybe murray gave it later like 11.40, he left 2 min, what he said, and then there is like also a whole 30? min before the paramedics where called? and not knowing how to do cpr *how the .. is that possible* he should have called immidiatly for help 911, and because he didnt..: In this timeline he knew michael was already gone because of i fault he made, so he wait and paniced and try to hide things and then calll for help.


In both storys murray is quilty.. i cant see how he isnt no matter what the defense is trying?
 
25 mgs would only put a patient out for 5 minutes which is correct.. So Murray is lying. I think your scenario is right.. He gave it at 10:40 left the room for about an hour to make phone calls and send texts.. he came back to the room and Mike was already dead. He definitely wasn't monitoring him at all. The cover up started when he realized MJ was gone already.
 
In AR at the beginning under Informant/Witness statements it says 'Around 1200 hrs Dr. Murray found the decedent not breathing....'

Murray spoke with detectives briefly at the hospital.
 
The thing i dont get about all of this is Why are people still going to this man knowing that he is not well in the head? I mean seriously! My whole hangup is The CPR Why didnt he know how to do it? I mean if your going to be a cardiologist THAT is the first thing they teach you is how to do CPR Properly. This man ASKED IF ANYONE KNEW IT BECAUSE HE HAD NEVER DONE IT BEFORE. That right there tells me that this man is no damn doctor or one to be trusted with my life... Only recommend if you intend on having someone done in.
 
The thing i dont get about all of this is Why are people still going to this man knowing that he is not well in the head? I mean seriously! My whole hangup is The CPR Why didnt he know how to do it? I mean if your going to be a cardiologist THAT is the first thing they teach you is how to do CPR Properly. This man ASKED IF ANYONE KNEW IT BECAUSE HE HAD NEVER DONE IT BEFORE. That right there tells me that this man is no damn doctor or one to be trusted with my life... Only recommend if you intend on having someone done in.


Did Murray actually say he had never done it before OR was he asking for help with cpr? It is not unusual for cpr to be done by more than 1 person, in fact it is recommended that it is done by more than 1 person.
 
Also, if Murray's statement to LAPD is not clear or is ambiguous, they should have re-interviewed him to clarify what he said.
 
The thing i dont get about all of this is Why are people still going to this man knowing that he is not well in the head? I mean seriously! My whole hangup is The CPR Why didnt he know how to do it? I mean if your going to be a cardiologist THAT is the first thing they teach you is how to do CPR Properly. This man ASKED IF ANYONE KNEW IT BECAUSE HE HAD NEVER DONE IT BEFORE. That right there tells me that this man is no damn doctor or one to be trusted with my life... Only recommend if you intend on having someone done in.

I totally agree.. the fact that this 20 year licensed cardiologist didn't care that he was giving a man anesthesia at home without monitoring equipment and that he had no clue of how to perform CPR should be enough to strip him of his license right now..
 
That tape will stuff him up bigtime and i hope they will play it at the trial

they will.. The prosecutor has already mentioned to the judge that they will be playing his interview with the police
 
I think Murray knows exactly what he did as well and he knows it resulted in the death of Michael Jackson. He is a desperate liar and sociopath who will say and do anything to keep his license and stay out of jail.

I totally agree
 
QUOTE=elusive moonwalker;3385565]Of course they will. Its key evidence[/QUOTE]

Thank god
 
Did Murray actually say he had never done it before OR was he asking for help with cpr? It is not unusual for cpr to be done by more than 1 person, in fact it is recommended that it is done by more than 1 person.

no its not true i know cpr im with the red cross, its done by one, you can switch but its not done by two because you need to count right 30 pressure 2 air.. etc
 
does anybody know if there were notes found about other nights? And is he asked how did you remember when you give what when? because every nurse and doctor is teached to write it down.. so maybe he did other nights??
 
Have to wait to hear the interview.we omly know the basics
 
no its not true i know cpr im with the red cross, its done by one, you can switch but its not done by two because you need to count right 30 pressure 2 air.. etc

Well, i'm not a member of the red cross but i have never seen that stated before. Are you saying that cpr is NOT recommended to be done by 2 people? That it should NOT be done by 2 people? When paramedics resuscitate ppl one person does chest compressions and the other bags the airways. Could you clarify your comment?
 
Recomendations on how to do cpr change all the time.well they here in the uk.how many breaths,compression whether two ppl should do it etc.so tbh imo there is no set in stone rules
 
Recomendations on how to do cpr change all the time.well they here in the uk.how many breaths,compression whether two ppl should do it etc.so tbh imo there is no set in stone rules

The cpr recommendations do keeping changing every few years. Right now I'm doing the mandatory every 2 yrs recertification for ACLS/CPR for ICU/ER/PACU nurses. 2 person trained cpr is recommended, switching positions during prolonged resus scenarios; but one person cpr is certainly far better than no cpr. My gut feeling is that by the time Murray actually started his "version" of cpr it was too little too late. jmo
 
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