Was MJs success worth it?

[Blues_Away2023]

And that's the real tragedy!
Such a cruel twist of fate that the thing he loved the most was the thing that nearly destroyed him.

That is so true

 

[SolAura]

I guess I see a lot of this through the lens of the very long history of black people being persecuted by a white supremacist society for being brilliant and having a stronger moral commitment to humanity than a white supremacist society is capable of. Personally, I think once they (racist white folks) realized that physically assassinating black folks preaching love martyrs them and enhances their message (MLK), they’ve instead embarked on a campaign of character assassination in order to try to neutralize them (MJ).

Mind you, I’m not saying this systematic character assassination of MJ was consciously planned and carried out by the government or some such, rather I think it can be attributed to something deep and malignant within the white supremacist psyche that continues to animate white western culture, especially in the US and Britain. In exactly the same way that racist white people in America lost their damn minds after Obama won and vindictively elected Trump, I see MJs persecution similarly - racist white society succumbing to their petty, vindictive nature.

Michael released Black or White in which he morphed into a black panther and simulated a riot. He released it after the Rodney King beating but before the actual LA riots. White folks were extremely upset and outraged by that. Then he showed black folks as Kings and Queens in Remember The Time. Then he started the Heal The World foundation and donated tens of millions of his own money. Far too many people still underestimate how upsetting all of that really was for white folks at that time. Within a year of that MJ was fighting child abuse allegations. The timing is not an accident if you actually understand the white supremacist mentality.

I get that many white folks reading my take may be skeptical, but as a society we still haven’t truly reckoned with just how threatened white society still is by black exceptionalism. They hate it with a passion and actively organize to destroy it. I’m a black immigrant to the US who lived in the Deep South for 20 years and let me tell you, that demon of hatred is extremely real and alive and well, and unfortunately still quite pervasive in “softer” forms like assuming the worst must be true when attributed to black folks who therefore never or very rarely get the benefit of the doubt.

To that end, I can’t co-sign on the idea that living in fear of this kind of white supremacist backlash should determine whether someone, especially if they’re black, decides to strive for greatness and show the world the brilliance they are capable of. To do so is to capitulate to the notion that the worst elements of society should set the standards. I don’t damn think so.

 

[R1chard]

Thank you to all for contributing to this discussion.
I realise it was a difficult one, and in part I wonder if that's because we had to imagine the unimaginable, a world where there was no MJ as we know it.

Yeah, I think it's just the classic dilemma. And a big what-if.

From a fan perspective I think the significant contributions he made were:

*Breaking down racial barriers as a black artist.

I think people outside the USA don't make nearly such a big deal out of this. I don't think I've ever met anybody face-to-face that's even brought this up in conversation.

In the UK we don't really have that kind of segregation or racism. Nobody celebrates "the first black person to do xyz". Plus we've come to realise that if you ignore racism it goes away.

So I wouldn't say this was one of MJs major achievements. Besides, it's not like he chose to be born black.

I think you're spot on with everything else though.

James Brown is unquestionably the Godfather of Soul irrespective of the somewhat controversial life he led, yet MJs King of Pop title is always referenced as 'self-proclaimed'.

I never got into this whole thing. It's obvious MJ was jealous of Elvis being known as the king, so he invented his own nickname and asked everybody else to use it. The whole phrase really makes me cringe. Titles are so unnecessary.

he is not largely considered a black hero. It frustrates me no end that his blackness is seemingly denied due to a disease he had no control over.

He was always saying how colour didn't matter.

 

[SolAura]

Michael Jackson was deeply aware of who he was and what he represented as a black man and black artist, and he absolutely is a hero to many black people world wide because of what he accomplished. People continue to confuse Michael’s willingness to expand and defy the boundaries of “blackness” with the idea that he actually eschewed blackness, which are two very, very different things.

Michael stated that color didn’t matter in determining what is good music or artistry, but to pretend he didn’t care about race and racism is to willingly dismiss a very significant and obvious part of who he was.

Also, always important to keep in mind that your culturally mediated perceptions are exactly that and not necessarily accurate to other people’s reality. MJ is included in discussions of black heroes during black history month in many parts of the US, for example, which you may be unaware of if you’re not from here. Just as the way that he is revered and celebrated throughout many parts of the black diaspora may also not be known to you if you don’t interact much with that community.

 

[SolAura]

Yeah, I think it's just the classic dilemma. And a big what-if.


I think people outside the USA don't make nearly such a big deal out of this. I don't think I've ever met anybody face-to-face that's even brought this up in conversation.

In the UK we don't really have that kind of segregation or racism. Nobody celebrates "the first black person to do xyz". Plus we've come to realise that if you ignore racism it goes away.

So I wouldn't say this was one of MJs major achievements. Besides, it's not like he chose to be born black.

The idea that overcoming what he had to overcome as a poor black boy in the still segregated United States in order to achieve what he did is not in and of itself an achievement of epic proportions is so bizarre I can hardly make sense of it. Smdh. This is the kind of willful ignorance about what whites supremacy is and how it hampers and harms black folks that is really tiresome to encounter. For the life of me I’ll never understand how MJ fans of all people see fit to pretend that his race is insignificant to who he was and what he accomplished.

And let me assure you, for poor black folks the world over who know MJ, it’s a very very big deal, and always will be,

 

[Blues_Away2023]

The idea that overcoming what he had to overcome as a poor black boy in the still segregated United States in order to achieve what he did is not in and of itself an achievement of epic proportions is so bizarre I can hardly make sense of it. Smdh. This is the kind of willful ignorance about what whites supremacy is and how it hampers and harms black folks that is really tiresome to encounter. For the life of me I’ll never understand how MJ fans of all people see fit to pretend that his race is insignificant to who he was and what he accomplished.

And let me assure you, for poor black folks the world over who know MJ, it’s a very very big deal, and always will be,

I hate to be that guy but your posts scream hatred towards white people. Perhaps you are the racist one?

We’re honestly not that bad.

 

[bluemoon7]

Such an interesting thread topic! I have so many thoughts ...

 

[bluemoon7]

I recently found out about yet another humiliation that MJ had to face, that I'm sure others on this forum are well aware of. I watched a video from the late 80s where MJ went to his old school where they named an auditorium in his honour. He looked so happy and even described it as the happiest day of his life. I work in a school so the whole video made me really emotional. Then I found out that the school covered up his name due to 2003. I was sad to learn this and thought how mortified MJ must have felt when he heard the news. Thankfully, they restored his name but only after he had passed.

He worked so hard for his success and deserved all the accolades, but the allegations and the trial really did derail all of it.

This might be provocative, but , no, I don´t think the trial derailed his success. It kind of "dampened" it for many people, but firstly, many fans became even more involved in his art / defending his innocence, and secondly, I feel that recently many young people start discovering Michael Even the general public slowly begins to remember Michael as the artist, ... and many people start doubting the allegations.

 

[bluemoon7]

Generally, as I grow older, I try not to think "what if" too often/intensely. Thinking about different scenarious and how life could have played out for people (or even myself), does not serve me very well. It is completely legitimate and also interesting to ask "what if" questions, though.

 

[R1chard]

the very long history of black people being persecuted by a white supremacist society

I just think you're taking this way too seriously. Look at the words you're using!!! It's like you're going out of your way to perpetuate hatred.

they’ve instead embarked on a campaign of character assassination in order to try to neutralize them (MJ).

That's because he's rich and because he's eccentric. Nothing else. He's just an easy target.

Michael released Black or White in which he morphed into a black panther and simulated a riot. He released it after the Rodney King beating but before the actual LA riots.

Again, you're reading too much into it. MJ was just messing around. He was copying what he'd seen in videogames.

White folks were extremely upset and outraged by that

That didn't happen. Sony just likes to call it "controversial" because it generates interest. It's one of those things where newspapers print stories about how outraged everybody is, except nobody actually was.

Then he showed black folks as Kings and Queens in Remember The Time.

Because it was set in ancient Egypt?!

Far too many people still underestimate how upsetting all of that really was for white folks at that time. Within a year of that MJ was fighting child abuse allegations. The timing is not an accident if you actually understand the white supremacist mentality.

Omg. Just, omg.

he absolutely is a hero to many black people world wide because of what he accomplished.

Nobody is saying he isn't.

A correction though: I'd hope he was a hero to people because of how good the music was. It would be pretty sad if people liked him only because he was successful.

to pretend he didn’t care about race and racism is to willingly dismiss a very significant and obvious part of who he was.

Again, nobody is saying that.

Also, always important to keep in mind that your culturally mediated perceptions are exactly that and not necessarily accurate to other people’s reality.

I've lived in 4 countries and been to 6 continents, I'd like to think I have a good understanding of culture. I've discussed MJ with people in everywhere from Gary, to Detroit, NY, Philadelphia, Louisville, Alabama, California and others. If anything, it's the USA that's the exception.

Just as the way that he is revered and celebrated throughout many parts of the black diaspora may also not be known to you if you don’t interact much with that community.

Let's just say he was celebrated throughout the world. No need to specify black or white.

The idea that overcoming what he had to overcome as a poor black boy in the still segregated United States in order to achieve what he did is not in and of itself an achievement of epic proportions is so bizarre I can hardly make sense of it.

I don't suddenly appreciate MJ's music more just because he's a "poor black boy". It's not even like MJ was the first successful black artist. Look back to Chuck Berry, Little Richard, not to mention Diana Ross, or even Leadbelly.

It's like somebody saying they like Madonna because she's female, lol.

 

[bluemoon7]

I just think you're taking this way too seriously. Look at the words you're using!!! It's like you're going out of your way to perpetuate hatred.


That's because he's rich and because he's eccentric. Nothing else. He's just an easy target.


Again, you're reading too much into it. MJ was just messing around. He was copying what he'd seen in videogames.


That didn't happen. Sony just likes to call it "controversial" because it generates interest. It's one of those things where newspapers print stories about how outraged everybody is, except nobody actually was.


Because it was set in ancient Egypt?!


Omg. Just, omg.


Nobody is saying he isn't.

A correction though: I'd hope he was a hero to people because of how good the music was. It would be pretty sad if people liked him only because he was successful.


Again, nobody is saying that.


I've lived in 4 countries and been to 6 continents, I'd like to think I have a good understanding of culture. I've discussed MJ with people in everywhere from Gary, to Detroit, NY, Philadelphia, Louisville, Alabama, California and others. If anything, it's the USA that's the exception.


Let's just say he was celebrated throughout the world. No need to specify black or white.


I don't suddenly appreciate MJ's music more just because he's a "poor black boy". It's not even like MJ was the first successful black artist. Look back to Chuck Berry, Little Richard, not to mention Diana Ross, or even Leadbelly.

It's like somebody saying they like Madonna because she's female, lol.

 

[Blues_Away2023]

I just think you're taking this way too seriously. Look at the words you're using!!! It's like you're going out of your way to perpetuate hatred.


That's because he's rich and because he's eccentric. Nothing else. He's just an easy target.


Again, you're reading too much into it. MJ was just messing around. He was copying what he'd seen in videogames.


That didn't happen. Sony just likes to call it "controversial" because it generates interest. It's one of those things where newspapers print stories about how outraged everybody is, except nobody actually was.


Because it was set in ancient Egypt?!


Omg. Just, omg.


Nobody is saying he isn't.

A correction though: I'd hope he was a hero to people because of how good the music was. It would be pretty sad if people liked him only because he was successful.


Again, nobody is saying that.


I've lived in 4 countries and been to 6 continents, I'd like to think I have a good understanding of culture. I've discussed MJ with people in everywhere from Gary, to Detroit, NY, Philadelphia, Louisville, Alabama, California and others. If anything, it's the USA that's the exception.


Let's just say he was celebrated throughout the world. No need to specify black or white.


I don't suddenly appreciate MJ's music more just because he's a "poor black boy". It's not even like MJ was the first successful black artist. Look back to Chuck Berry, Little Richard, not to mention Diana Ross, or even Leadbelly.

It's like somebody saying they like Madonna because she's female, lol.

The poster probably means well but they are coming across as a bit racist towards white folk with all those comments

 

[SolAura]

I hate to be that guy but your posts scream hatred towards white people. Perhaps you are the racist one?

We’re honestly not that bad.

:sigh: the funniest thing about your weird reverse racism gambit is that my husband is white, and every time I very clearly stated “racist while people”, so if you’re not that, why are you offended? Are you so obtuse that you think racist white people don’t exist? Or do you think that it’s just “not that bad” and “black people exaggerate” or “they just have a chip on their shoulders”? It seems to me the problem actuallyis that you identify with being “racist white people”, and that is definitely a you problem.

 

[SolAura]

I just think you're taking this way too seriously. Look at the words you're using!!! It's like you're going out of your way to perpetuate hatred.


That's because he's rich and because he's eccentric. Nothing else. He's just an easy target.


Again, you're reading too much into it. MJ was just messing around. He was copying what he'd seen in videogames.


That didn't happen. Sony just likes to call it "controversial" because it generates interest. It's one of those things where newspapers print stories about how outraged everybody is, except nobody actually was.


Because it was set in ancient Egypt?!


Omg. Just, omg.


Nobody is saying he isn't.

A correction though: I'd hope he was a hero to people because of how good the music was. It would be pretty sad if people liked him only because he was successful.


Again, nobody is saying that.


I've lived in 4 countries and been to 6 continents, I'd like to think I have a good understanding of culture. I've discussed MJ with people in everywhere from Gary, to Detroit, NY, Philadelphia, Louisville, Alabama, California and others. If anything, it's the USA that's the exception.


Let's just say he was celebrated throughout the world. No need to specify black or white.

Please explain why naming Michael’s race is a problem to you?

It’s interesting that discussing race and its relevance distracts from his legacy for you. What’s amazing is that is literally his legacy. A poor black boy in white supremacist America becoming a beloved global icon.

I’m always curious as to what other story about MJ’s legacy people have constructed to explain just why it is as remarkable an achievement as it actually is.

 

[SolAura]

You know, at first I was pissed off, but now I’m just shaking my head again.

That you think MJ would actually endorse your “his race doesn’t matter/isn’t relevant” perspective when what hurt him most besides the child abuse allegations was the insinuation that he didn’t want to be black and wasn’t proud of his race.

And here are some of his white fans now diminishing the importance of his race to a black woman.

:sigh:

Poor MJ.

Maybe he did fail after all.

 

[Blues_Away2023]

Black or white , blue hair , green hair what the **** does it matter?

MJ was a global icon who was loved by all races and different religions, yes he was a black man who experienced prejudice because of being black but did it stop him? Hell no, he literally smashed through the barrier.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

Ok.

So I mentioned that I thought one of MJs significant contributions was breaking down racial barriers, and this was all in the context of whether his successes were worth the sacrifices he made.

Boy did I open a can of worms!

I thought I would clarify my initial point. I think it was significant that MTV finally played a black artist on heavy rotation, because that paved the way for other black artists to finally receive that level of airplay that was not available to them before MJs breakthrough. Had MJ not done that, who knows how long that process would've taken? MJ was part of a historical black achievement.

I think it's important to remember that we are all shaped by our own personal experiences and while they maybe valid to us, there will be alternative narratives that are valid to others.

I also live in the UK @R1chard! However, I would not agree that a kind of racism does not exist here or that if it's ignored it goes away. We also have to bear in mind, that while Britain played a pivotol role in the slave trade, abject slavery was not practised in Britain, therefore black Americans will have a perspective that is not accessible to those in the UK.
Also, I love that he gave himself the title King of Pop! But I think it was ET who used it initially, irrespective of who it was, he was worthy of it!

@SolAura while MJ is celebrated by many black people as a black figure, he has also been criticised for not being black enough by those within and outside the black community.

@bluemoon7 I agree there was a stronger sense of community when we all rallied around MJ for the trial and even in 2019, from a fan perspective. But I'm talking about the overall perspective, outside the fan community, because sadly it's very hard to read anything about MJ without having negative things mentioned.

 

[R1chard]

The poster probably means well but they are coming across as a bit racist towards white folk with all those comments

How can anybody mean well by being so totally consumed with "white supremacy"?

Please explain why naming Michael’s race is a problem to you?

Because I judge people based on their actions, and not the colour of their skin. It's unimportant.

It’s interesting that discussing race and its relevance distracts from his legacy for you. What’s amazing is that is literally his legacy. A poor black boy in white supremacist America becoming a beloved global icon.

Or that he was just a poor boy who released great music and had worldwide success because of it?

It doesn't define him. It's an accident of birth. He would have been successful regardless of what skin he happened to be born with.

Nobody specifies that John Lennon was a poor white boy growing up in a poor part of Liverpool, or that Kurt Cobain was a poor white boy growing up in a poor part of Seattle.

You know, at first I was pissed off, but now I’m just shaking my head again.

For your own good, you've really got to drop this. It's not good for you. Being so obsessed with the evil bad white bogeyman is just gonna eat you up inside.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Wild to me that we have people on this forum trying to imply someone is racist for pointing out that MJ being black and successful is important. Talk about total ignorance.

 

[wendijane]

Yes. Because otherwise his work would be all in vain, People did listen to his message there is proof of that cause we pretty much all want to live in a world where if they could just turn down the heat .... war and weather wise, i mean...so I think it was worth every tear he and [we] shed to make that stance, that he was the only one to do that ,, those humanitarian efforts should always be remembered.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

he was the only one to do that

He sure was, I can't think of anyone before or after him that embodied the messages he did in the way that he did.

So it sounds like you think the global impact of his message and work during his lifetime outweighs the global impact of his tarnished legacy. Thanks for sharing.

Certainly when looking at his life his humanitarian efforts are undeniable, they are littered throughout his adult life. I wish it played more of a role within the prevailing narratives about him.

 

[wendijane]

He sure was, I can't think of anyone before or after him that embodied the messages he did in the way that he did.

Mmmm because his peers were mostly focused on ...sex. Michael was not about the mundane he really had something to say.

So it sounds like you think the global impact of his message and work during his lifetime outweighs the global impact of his tarnished legacy. Thanks for sharing.

You are welcome jasmine.

Certainly when looking at his life his humanitarian efforts are undeniable, they are littered throughout his adult life. I wish it played more of a role within the prevailing narratives about him.

Yeah. I think overall his story highlights what a broken world we live in, How it might have been, had he been able to spread his message a little more without all the filthy lies created to stop him. Like his mother said on the second trial ..it was a witch hunt so I have to believe that. MJJ for me highlights how bloody broken the system is. Hey, ..we learnt alot from him and many of his supporters have gone into law, career-wise. or health or education. We are a talented bunch. I think i can only think good thoughts when I think of my lovely hero, Michael Jackson. Sorry i'm late to the thread but ..you know..

 

[Blues_Away2023]

Wild to me that we have people on this forum trying to imply someone is racist for pointing out that MJ being black and successful is important. Talk about total ignorance.

Perhaps it was the constant mention of white supremacy and general bitterness towards white people is the reason why they got called out for being racist?

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Perhaps it was the constant mention of white supremacy and general bitterness towards white people is the reason why they got called out for being racist?

Being offended at someone talking about white supremacy existing is extremely hilarious. This bitterness you speak of is entirely fabricated in your own head.

 

[Blues_Away2023]

Being offended at someone talking about white supremacy existing is extremely hilarious. This bitterness you speak of is entirely fabricated in your own head.

Let me guess….you are black and see nothing wrong with what has been written by the poster?

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Let me guess….you are black and see nothing wrong with what has been written by the poster?

Weird that you're assuming I'm black because I'm not so sensitive as to be offended when someone talks about white supremacy. Anyway, I'm not gonna continue this wildly unserious discussion with you.

 

[Spaceship]

Personally, no, I don't think so.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I'm gonna say it's not worth it. But I derive a lot of satisfaction and value from it so I do appreciate it still. But no, fame is never worth it.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

I'm gonna say it's not worth it. But I derive a lot of satisfaction and value from it so I do appreciate it still. But no, fame is never worth it.

So you feel that any difference he could have made or did make was not worth the price of fame.
His level of fame was certainly debilitating and unrivalled really.

 

[someplace_else]

Sure this level of fame is insane and I think no one can imagine to live like that. But let's not forget, he also chose that path and pushed it further with a lot of choices he made.