Was MJs success worth it?

[jasmine.uddin]

I recently found out about yet another humiliation that MJ had to face, that I'm sure others on this forum are well aware of. I watched a video from the late 80s where MJ went to his old school where they named an auditorium in his honour. He looked so happy and even described it as the happiest day of his life. I work in a school so the whole video made me really emotional. Then I found out that the school covered up his name due to 2003. I was sad to learn this and thought how mortified MJ must have felt when he heard the news. Thankfully, they restored his name but only after he had passed.

He worked so hard for his success and deserved all the accolades, but the allegations and the trial really did derail all of it.

I saw a black and white picture of a young MJ curled up on a sofa or something, and I felt so sad for that little boy, he had no idea of the colossal burden he would have to carry. It made me wonder whether he would have been better off without any of it.

MJ is a cultural icon who changed the landscape of music, he was a musical genius who contributed greatly to his craft, and is deservedly called the greatest entertainer that lived, but was any of it really worth the humiliation of seeing so much of what he had built destroyed in the end? Even Neverland did not escape this fate. I know his success gave him the means to pursue his humanitarian goals, but I can't help but feel his enormous success is only matched by his enormous personal cost.

The world would have continued at the pace that it was at without the significant contributions MJ made, were those contributions necessary and ultimately worth it in the end?

Just curious about what others think.
I apologise if this is a topic that has already been discussed on some thread here before.

 

[someplace_else]

That is something only Michael could answer.

Could he have had a way easier/happier life if he hadn't been so successful? Probably. Would he have been satisfied with this life? Probably not. I guess, it was so important for him to have an influence on the world and to help so many people that he chose this path and would do it again if he had the chance.

The main problem will always be the allegations, I guess everything else was bearable for him.

I'm not really into superficial stuff, but I often feel like that's exactly the way his life had to be, as tragic as it was in so many situations .

And I also feel that everyone who understands his message and tries to be a "better person" because of it (cheesy wording, you know what I mean), is important for society.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

I'm not really into superficial stuff, but I often feel like that's exactly the way his life had to be, as tragic as it was in so many situations .

That's an interesting comment. That he couldn't have one without the other? It makes me wonder how history will choose to remember him, we often gloss over the personal lives of our historical figures with the passage of time.

I agree that his message about healing the world is something that has undoubtedly impacted fans all over the world. It's not really a message we hear from anyone anymore.

 

[SolAura]

I think we tend to underestimate Michael’s spiritual commitment, wisdom and fortitude. I’ve wondered this myself and felt like I got a very swift answer from MJ himself to the question of was it really worth it when I had the temerity to ask him that myself. I was feeling very dejected and stated that the world was undeserving of him and his gifts. An image of him laughing immediately popped into my mind. He shook his head and smiled. “Of course it was worth it. Look at my children. Look at yours. Our children are always worth it, no matter how great the suffering.” Perhaps that was just a projection of my subconscious, but it didn’t feel like it.

 

[Hot_Street]

It made me wonder whether he would have been better off without any of it.​

in his own words:

 

[someplace_else]

That's an interesting comment. That he couldn't have one without the other? It makes me wonder how history will choose to remember him, we often gloss over the personal lives of our historical figures with the passage of time.

I agree that his message about healing the world is something that has undoubtedly impacted fans all over the world. It's not really a message we hear from anyone anymore.

Butterfly effect - history is exactly how everything went down. Good and bad. One little change and everything could have gone totally different. Better? Worse? Who knows.

People will mainly remember his art, I guess...the music. That's also interesting to me - people who say they don't like him, always say that they appreciate his music or at least recognize that it's special, even if it's not their specific taste of music. So you can say, he definitely had the gift to touch people even if they don't realise it consciously.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

in his own words:

Wonder if he would have replied the same after the trial

 

[jasmine.uddin]

Butterfly effect - history is exactly how everything went down. Good and bad. One little change and everything could have gone totally different. Better? Worse? Who knows.

People will mainly remember his art, I guess...the music.

Very true, and I hope he will be remembered more for his art than anything else.

But the question I'm trying to get at is whether his sacrifices were worth the success from a fan perspective.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

I think we tend to underestimate Michael’s spiritual commitment, wisdom and fortitude. I’ve wondered this myself and felt like I got a very swift answer from MJ himself to the question of was it really worth it when I had the temerity to ask him that myself. I was feeling very dejected and stated that the world was undeserving of him and his gifts. An image of him laughing immediately popped into my mind. He shook his head and smiled. “Of course it was worth it. Look at my children. Look at yours. Our children are always worth it, no matter how great the suffering.” Perhaps that was just a projection of my subconscious, but it didn’t feel like it.

Wow, was this a from a conversation you had with him?
Thanks for sharing! Would be lovely to hear more about the context of this conversation. Was it after the trial?
It sounds like he was content to give himself up as a sacrificial lamb for a higher purpose.
Do you, as a fan, feel like it was worth it?

 

[someplace_else]

Very true, and I hope he will be remembered more for his art than anything else.

But the question I'm trying to get at is whether his sacrifices were worth the success from a fan perspective.

To me, the success he had is connected to the fact he could help a lot of people. So when you look at it from a completely objective point of view, of course it was worth it.

Can I look at it that way? No, not really. So I can't decide.

But I hope there will be more answers, interesting topic .

 

[SolAura]

Wow, was this a from a conversation you had with him?
Thanks for sharing! Would be lovely to hear more about the context of this conversation. Was it after the trial?
It sounds like he was happy to give himself up as a sacrificial lamb for a higher purpose.
Do you, as a fan, feel like it was worth it?

No, I didn’t speak with a living MJ. I was saying that I’ve asked that question and felt like his spirit answered.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

No, I didn’t speak with a living MJ. I was saying that I’ve asked that question and felt like his spirit answered.

Thanks for the clarification. I'd be interested to know how you asked him that, was it through a dream or something?

I agree with you that MJs spirituality often gets overlooked.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

To me, the success he had is connected to the fact he could help a lot of people. So when you look at it from a completely objective point of view, of course it was worth it

I often turn that point in my mind too. His success certainly gave him a huge capacity to help others, whether it was a fair exchange for his legacy to be forever tainted with peadophilia is something I can't resolve either.

I work with children, and if I was given the choice between making significant contributions to my desired field in exchange for my name to be eternally dragged through the mud, I'm not sure I could endure such a character assassination. I would feel like my sullied reputation would undermine any good I could do. I could only imagine it being worthwhile if I was totally eradicating or significantly impacting a social/global issue, like world hunger or climate change.

This brings me to the other point I turn in my head, which is MJs significant impact as a black artist. Was it significant enough to justify that level of sacrifice?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, would love to hear from others too!

 

[R1chard]

Then I found out that the school covered up his name due to 2003.

That is sad. But I guess that's the way of the world these days - don't give the benefit of the doubt, exercise caution first and think about it later.

Even Neverland did not escape this fate.

At the end of the day, nothing is permanent. It's just a house. You can't take it with you, etc.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

That is sad. But I guess that's the way of the world these days - don't give the benefit of the doubt, exercise caution first and think about it later.


At the end of the day, nothing is permanent. It's just a house. You can't take it with you, etc.

I agree, a house or a sign are not permanent, these were just the collateral damage from his name being dragged through the mud.
But I think a reputation can be permanent, especially when it comes to the legacy of historical figures. Do you think the success was worth that damage to his reputation?

 

[R1chard]

I was aware that I didn't answer your question.

It's a really hard one. I don't know.

There's the interview where Michael says he has to create. He's the only one who can answer the question. I don't want to be famous, but millions of people do.

I think it's a huge mistake for Paris to undo all of Michael's great work keeping her out of the spotlight.

 

[zinniabooklover]

[...] I think it's a huge mistake for Paris to undo all of Michael's great work keeping her out of the spotlight.

Paris and Prince were photographed attending TII rehearsals with Michael without their face masks.

Michael says in his interview with Geraldo Rivera that at some point he will do some shows and bring his kids onstage and everyone will see them for the first time.

If Paris continues to do music and acting she's inevitably going to be in the public eye. It's her choice to pursue a career as a performing artist. That said, so far she's been very indie about the choices she's made and how she's building her career. I don't think she's aiming to be the next global superstar, necessarily.

If Michael had lived the kids would probably have thrown off the face masks. No teenager is going to go along with that for too long!

 

[someplace_else]

I would feel like my sullied reputation would undermine any good I could do.

What really matters are the people he helped. Imagine your child is sick and could only survive because of his help. If it was my child, I would say f* the reputation because only narrow minded idiots believe all that garbage. That saved life is worth so much more than the opinion of people who so not use their brains.

No matter what you do, there will always be people who try to bring you down, so... you could write a whole book about this topic, I guess . So many points to consider...

 

[jasmine.uddin]

There's the interview where Michael says he has to create.

Yes, I do understand that perspective. I have on occasion worked with gifted children, and it is something they cannot contain, it kind of seeps out of them, and they charge ahead with their gift with or without you because you are miles behind them anyway. But I'm not sure being gifted needs to be synonymous with being globally famous.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

What really matters are the people he helped. Imagine your child is sick and could only survive because of his help. If it was my child, I would say f* the reputation because only narrow minded idiots believe all that garbage. That saved life is worth so much more than the opinion of people who so not use their brains.

No matter what you do, there will always be people who try to bring you down, so... you could write a whole book about this topic, I guess . So many points to consider...

Yes, making personal sacrifices for the greater good is certainly a compelling point to consider.

Unfortunately, it can also been seen as a manipulation tactic. Over here in the UK we had a celebrity who spent much of his career helping the sick in hospital only to find out he was abusing them. He did help children along the way, but no one cares about that now. And the reality is that many will view MJ this way, maybe even the parents of the children he helped, remember Janet Arvizo was one such mother. That damage has been done, and sadly I'm not sure it can ever be undone.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Very difficult thing to answer. He reached heights in his life that many could only dream of, was able to make his dreams reality, and was committed to this to an extreme extent, through his dance, music and songwriting. His work of helping many people through charity is also something we can add to his history and story. Of course, many things happened in his life that nobody should have to deal with. I often think about his serious strength in order to be able to continue and come back every time without letting it ruin it totally him. From his small beginnings with his family through his adult career his story is much more than the bad things that happened, or how it ended.

I think if we are asking if something was ultimately worth it then it can't be answered by any of us.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

From his small beginnings with his family through his adult career his story is much more than the bad things that happened, or how it ended.

Totally agree.
But sadly the bad things take up a disproportionate amount of space in his legacy.

 

[SolAura]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that we are asking this question at this point in time with a lawsuit still looming and unresolved, and I think that colors things somewhat.

Personally, I think that the importance of Mike’s legacy and the humanitarian values he stood for have and will only become more apparent over time, especially as the world becomes a darker place in his absence. I think that future generations will continue to discover the truth of who he really was, and that he will eventually be seen much more favorably. The cynical ones who are convinced he’s a pedophile are mostly all of the older generations who hated him in life because he was unconventional. Most people newly discovering MJ don’t seem to be as convinced of his deviance as those people are. The truth of these false allegations are out in the world and will, I believe, continue to be amplified over time.

So, in so far as I genuinely believe that he will eventually be rightly remembered for who he truly was, and will continue to inspire millions for generations, yeah… I’d say it was worth it.

 

[SolAura]

Thanks for the clarification. I'd be interested to know how you asked him that, was it through a dream or something?

I agree with you that MJs spirituality often gets overlooked.

No, it wasn’t through a dream. I sometimes address him directly in my mind when I’m thinking about him. Occasionally, he vividly pops in to my mind’s eye to respond. It’s jarring when it happens cause it genuinely doesn’t feel like it’s coming from my own subconscious.

I can only speak to my experience, but I do genuinely feel like his spirit is still active in the world. I know we all have wanted him to rest in peace, but I honestly can’t imagine him doing that when he left his three babies behind so unexpectedly with so much still so unresolved in the world. I feel like in so far as his mission isn’t done he is still here, quietly and sometimes more directly influencing people, nudging the timeline in the right direction. Or, so I hope.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that we are asking this question at this point in time with a lawsuit still looming and unresolved, and I think that colors things somewhat.

So, in so far as I genuinely believe that he will eventually be rightly remembered for who he truly was, and will continue to inspire millions for generations, yeah… I’d say it was worth it.

MJ was acquitted while he was alive, and still many refused to believe he was innocent, and that was within his own lifetime. I'm not sure the impending lawsuit will change much of anything when it comes to the guilters narrative.

Unfortunately the older generation pass on all their biases to their kids, and along with media coverage that is still obsessed with covering the absurd when it comes to MJ, he remains a controversial figure even to the younger ones I work with.

I loved your last sentence, I too hope he will be rightly remembered, I just can't see it happening in our lifetime.
The only way I can see that happening within our lifetime is through more balanced media coverage or JC clearing up the narrative. And frankly both are unlikely.

 

[R1chard]

Paris and Prince were photographed attending TII rehearsals with Michael without their face masks.

And I think that was a bad decision.

Michael says in his interview with Geraldo Rivera that at some point he will do some shows and bring his kids onstage and everyone will see them for the first time.

Meh, that's just an interview. It's publicity. He could say anything.

If Paris continues to do music and acting she's inevitably going to be in the public eye. It's her choice to pursue a career as a performing artist

It just makes her a stupid little girl. It's very naive. She's already rich, there's no need to take the risk.

It's like she never listened to "Privacy".

In 10 years time, she's gonna be complaining about harassment and allegations. But she's already given up that right.

That said, so far she's been very indie about the choices she's made and how she's building her career.

That's just a marketing label. She's signed with Universal. Alongside Taylor Swift.

If Michael had lived the kids would probably have thrown off the face masks. No teenager is going to go along with that for too long!

It had got to the point where the media had lost interest.

Put it another way - they were nearly old enough that they would be walking around without Michael, and at that point, nobody would know who they are. The point is that nobody recognises your face. You only need masks when you're with your parents, that phase was always going to end.

But I'm not sure being gifted needs to be synonymous with being globally famous.

No, but if you want to be the best at everything, and set records... Like I said, it's Michael's choice. You know the pros and the cons. If you still decide to go ahead, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

 

[zinniabooklover]

OK, face masks. You say ...

And I think that was a bad decision.

... about Paris and Prince not wearing masks at the TII rehearsals. And yet, also this in response to my remark about P&P, as teenagers, throwing away the masks ...

It had got to the point where the media had lost interest.

Feels like the goalposts are being moved but, OK.

It's very naive. She's already rich, there's no need to take the risk.

Here's a thought ... maybe she's not doing music and acting (and fashion) for fame or money. Maybe she really is moved by the creative spirit. Maybe she really needs to do the performing artist thing bc that's what creative people do.

It's like she never listened to "Privacy".

Personally, I would never try to figure out what a public figure has or hasn't listened to. I have no idea why Paris might be willing to enter the public space by being a performing artist. Maybe she'll come to regret it in years to come, who knows? Or maybe she won't. Maybe she'll be just fine. I think she's allowed to live her life on her terms.

In 10 years time, she's gonna be complaining about harassment and allegations. But she's already given up that right.

OK, so we're very different. I don't agree with this at all. I don't believe that, just bc someone is in the public eye, that they give up all their rights to privacy. I don't believe that it's OK for the public to demand to know everything about that person. To criticise a person simply bc she keeps her feelings private on the anniversary of her father's death. Or, alternatively, that she gets on with her life even around the time of that anniversary. Public figures do not owe the entirety of their life to the public (or the media) and if people (and the media) would accept that simple idea there wouldn't be a problem. There's probably not much to be done about media but social media? People need to grow up and live their own lives and not try to control the lives of public figures. It's really simple.

That's just a marketing label. She's signed with Universal. Alongside Taylor Swift.

OK, I didn't know that she was with Universal (bc I don't pay that much attention to how Paris lives her life) . That's actually interesting bc, imo, she shows no signs of ever moving in the direction of global dominance. She's so indie! I can't see her as the next TS or B or OR or any of them, tbh. I guess time will tell.

It just makes her a stupid little girl. [...]

Well, that's offensive and sexist.

Think I'll just exit, stage left.


@jasmine.uddin - feels like I'm derailing your thread. Regarding your question, I totally understand why people wrestle with this stuff. I just don't think we can ever know. I think SG has summed it up best ...

[...] I think if we are asking if something was ultimately worth it then it can't be answered by any of us.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

Thank you to all for contributing to this discussion.
I realise it was a difficult one, and in part I wonder if that's because we had to imagine the unimaginable, a world where there was no MJ as we know it.

From a fan perspective I think the significant contributions he made were:

*Breaking down racial barriers as a black artist.

*His humanitarian efforts.

*Combining the world of dance within pop music.

*Combining genres within pop music.

*Innovating and elevating music through the forms of dance, short videos and theatrical live performances.

*His lasting influence in the music industry.

*His lasting influence worldwide on the fans he inspired through his message and his music.

Out of the above I feel the only ones that were necessary contributions and worth big sacrifices were breaking down racial barriers, his humanitarian efforts, and maybe his impact on his fans worldwide.

But I'm not sure whether even these contributions were worth the damage to his reputation, as I feel the allegations leveled against him undo his impact in two of these areas.

There are people within the black community as well as the wider community that still believe he tried to turn himself white. Just as few cared that he was found innocent of his crimes, few cared that he had vitiligo. MJ turning himself white is still a prevailing narrative. Black heroes, however controversial are usually regarded as heroes. James Brown is unquestionably the Godfather of Soul irrespective of the somewhat controversial life he led, yet MJs King of Pop title is always referenced as 'self-proclaimed'. Black historical figures have typically made huge unjust sacrifices to further any black cause but they are given their heroe status. MJ is not given this hero status, he is not largely considered a black hero. It frustrates me no end that his blackness is seemingly denied due to a disease he had no control over. To have made such significance as a black artist then be denied that blackness undermines his reputation. I cannot imagine the hurt he must have felt over this.

There's a similar contradiction when it comes to his humanitarian efforts. He wanted to make lasting impact on children, particularly the sick, and he did this. Yet he is considered a child molester. That is still a prevailing narrative however untrue. All the good he did with regards to children is undermined by this narrative. Speaking as someone who has dedicated a career to working with children, I would find this soul crushing.

His impact on his fans. I find him enormously inspirational, particularly at a time when he was the only one spreading such messages. Those messages did and still do impact my life. But I would feel I was being selfish if I said the impact he made in my lives and others as fans was worth the sacrifices he had to make.

Contemplating this question has been like contemplating whether a huge miscarriage of justice was worth it.

If I felt that there was a chance those false narratives could be removed, then I would say that he lived a phenomenal life and the sacrifices were worth it. However, I think those false narratives are so embedded in his story, that they not only caused him immense pain in life, but continue to cause immense pain to his legacy in his death.

I would need the bar raised much higher if I was going to have my legacy tainted for posterity. From MJs angle, maybe if sick children were forever helped in his name, or racial inequalities within the music industry were addressed in his name, or even if past historical racial injustices in music were wiped out in his name. And I'm aware that all of these are near enough impossible, which makes me feel that the sacrifices he made outweighed any success he could have ever realistically achieved.

So I guess I'm veering towards a no in answer to my question. And there is no right or wrong answer to this question, it's just a thought experiment.

Some have expressed that this is only a question he could answer, and I fully agree, but I was after a fan perspective as we can look back retrospectively at his whole life and view his legacy after his death (especially 2019, had MJ lived his career would never have survived one more allegation irrespective of however innocent he was and however ludicrous the allegation was).

Would love to hear your thoughts on my views if you made it this far , maybe I am missing something very obvious.

 

[Blues_Away2023]

The allegations have tainted everything. It’s that simple.

If you remove the allegations and his relationship with children. I suspect MJ would be to this day sitting on a perch that nobody could reach (he’s already there)

The mystery around MJ , plastic surgery, face masks military outfits fedora , white socks , vitiligo etc is all part of his persona and that’s what I love about him!

All these eccentricities are nothing in the grand scheme of things . He was larger than life but these allegations ruin it all and unfortunately he will always be associated with that tag despite being found innocent.

 

[jasmine.uddin]

If you remove the allegations and his relationship with children. I suspect MJ would be to this day sitting on a perch that nobody could reach (he’s already there)

And theres the real tragedy!
Such a cruel twist of fate that the thing he loved the most was the thing that nearly destroyed him.