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Would your opinion on Victory change if Michael was the lead singer?

filmandmusic

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Kind of a completely stupid question on an MJ forum but I also find it stupid to kill off an albums worth because your favorite singer isn’t the lead singer.
There simply is nothing wrong with the songs in itself, they’re pretty good to very good, pretty much all of them.

I’d like to know more about how the album came to be though. Michael had several songs ready for this album so at some point he or the brothers must have decided to not use them.
 
yes!
he would've made One More Chance a classic.
I didn't know there was a cover by Phil Collins. thanks to you!
 
If only Michael was here at live aid, this performance while chaotic and pretty much just shouted from start to finish is pure rock and roll. It is cool to see 2 superstars performing an MJ song.
I wonder what Mick disliked about the production and mixing of State of Shock, maybe this live performance was more to his liking?
Mick ripping off Tina's skirt also predates the super bowl JT and Janet controversial performance.
 
They'd have to change the track listing a bit in that case. Outside of Torture and State Of Shock, it's one of the worst albums by The Jacksons.
 
Prince Of Pop said:
They'd have to change the track listing a bit in that case. Outside of Torture and State Of Shock, it's one of the worst albums by The Jacksons.
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Sorry but I find it comical that only torture and state of shock are liked on here just because Michael sings on them . State of Shock is in fact the worst song on the album (still like it though). It literally feels like an unfinished demo. As often I think fans just refuse to give the Jacksons a fair chance.

The only justified criticism is that for example Tito’s and Jackie’s song are brought down a bit by mediocre singing and that body feels a bit too much like “wanna be starting something”. But the songs in itself they are strong, they have good lyrics, a good foundation, good production, good melody. It is all there imo.

I could make a thread on Triumph, Goin Places or Destiny and it would still not gather any interest on here despite Michael singing. If they re release these albums under the name of MJ people will suddenly magically enjoy the albums more I am sure of it.
 
filmandmusic said:
Sorry but I find it comical that only torture and state of shock are liked on here just because Michael sings on them . State of Shock is in fact the worst song on the album (still like it though). It literally feels like an unfinished demo. As often I think fans just refuse to give the Jacksons a fair chance.

The only justified criticism is that for example Tito’s and Jackie’s song are brought down a bit by mediocre singing and that body feels a bit too much like “wanna be starting something”. But the songs in itself they are strong, they have good lyrics, a good foundation, good production, good melody. It is all there imo.

I could make a thread on Triumph, Goin Places or Destiny and it would still not gather any interest on here despite Michael singing. If they re release these albums under the name of MJ people will suddenly magically enjoy the albums more I am sure of it.
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I think it's the same way around, if Invincible songs were made by other people they'd be considered their greatest hits. If Bad was made the same way as OTW and Thriller, they'd stop being "dated", if Dangerous was Quincy it'd have the same reputation as the others, etc

We've all got our axe to grind.

For the record I think The Hurt is the best song on Victory. And that is in part due to it's MJ background vocals. But just overall, it's so smooth. The other songs are, fine. But I don't think I'm biased; I actually like 2300 Jackson Street way more than Victory and it has way less MJ. Some of those songs are fierce.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
I think it's the same way around, if Invincible songs were made by other people they'd be considered their greatest hits.
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I doubt this
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
If Bad was made the same way as OTW and Thriller, they'd stop being "dated"
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I thought I was the only one finding bad dated, I had no idea it was a thing in the fandom. I thought it was his most popular album by far.
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
if Dangerous was Quincy it'd have the same reputation as the others, etc
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I doubt this as well, people find the album too long and like Invincible a too drastic change in sound. Quincy wouldn’t have made a difference I reckon
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
For the record I think The Hurt is the best song on Victory. And that is in part due to it's MJ background vocals. But just overall, it's so smooth. The other songs are, fine. But I don't think I'm biased; I actually like 2300 Jackson Street way more than Victory and it has way less MJ. Some of those songs are fierce.
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I personally dislike 2300 I’m not a fan of the NJS sound I don’t find the songs particularly strong personally. Compared to what the brothers wrote in the early 80s for me there is a big gulf in quality material
 
filmandmusic said:
I personally dislike 2300 I’m not a fan of the NJS sound I don’t find the songs particularly strong personally. Compared to what the brothers wrote in the early 80s for me there is a big gulf in quality material
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I think She is by far the best song on 2300. Almost as good as Wait on Victory.
 
DuranDuran said:
I'm sure if those songs had been released by Rihanna, P!nk, Beyoncé, Nelly, Drake, Lil Wayne, or Nicki Minaj they would have been popular hits. Drake could release a track of just sneezing and it would go to #1. 🤣
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For popular artists sure enough, anything sells when you’re hot but Michael really needed stronger material after a 6 year hiatus. That said we don’t truly know if they could have become hits as only 2 singles were released but imo there really wasn’t anything spectacular on Invincible.
Imo it are the 3rd to 6th single releases that really determine if the songs are good. The first 2 singles usually sell quite well out of anticipation after a long wait for new music.
 
filmandmusic said:
For popular artists sure enough, anything sells when you’re hot but Michael really needed stronger material after a 6 year hiatus. That said we don’t truly know if they could have become hits as only 2 singles were released but imo there really wasn’t anything spectacular on Invincible.
Imo it are the 3rd to 6th single releases that really determine if the songs are good. The first 2 singles usually sell quite well out of anticipation after a long wait for new music.
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How can you determine what is going to be a hit though? You said you don't like hip hop and that has been the most popular genre in the USA for many years now. Even some contemporary country music has hip hop elements in it. If Mike released an album in where every song has a featured rapper, you probably wouldn't like it. Which means your tastes don't match with what the mainstream audience listens to. And by rapper I mean ones that people know and not Fats. Much of Mariah Carey's career has been doing that. Jay-Z, Eminem, & Kanye West have won more Grammys than Mike & The Beatles. DJ Khaled get hits by saying "We da best music" & "another one" on a track. LL Cool J, The Fresh Prince (aka Will Smith), Ice Cube, Queen Latifah, & Ice-T are all rappers who became popular actors. Madonna, Diana Ross, Mick Jagger, & Prince couldn't do that. Elvis Presley was never really taken seriously, because the Colonel mostly had him making movies for teens.
 
The way I see it, MJ as a solo artist had eclipsed The Jacksons in both sound and quality with the release of Off The Wall and Thriller.

Changing vocalists would not have much of an impact tbh.

The best tracks on Victory , Torture and State of Shock( not a fan) are still pretty weak in comparison to what MJ was releasing himself.
 
DuranDuran said:
How can you determine what is going to be a hit though? You said you don't like hip hop and that has been the most popular genre in the USA for many years now. Even some contemporary country music has hip hop elements in it. If Mike released an album in where every song has a featured rapper, you probably wouldn't like it. Which means your tastes don't match with what the mainstream audience listens to. And by rapper I mean ones that people know and not Fats. Much of Mariah Carey's career has been doing that. Jay-Z, Eminem, & Kanye West have won more Grammys than Mike & The Beatles. DJ Khaled get hits by saying "We da best music" & "another one" on a track. LL Cool J, The Fresh Prince (aka Will Smith), Ice Cube, Queen Latifah, & Ice-T are all rappers who became popular actors. Madonna, Diana Ross, Mick Jagger, & Prince couldn't do that. Elvis Presley was never really taken seriously, because the Colonel mostly had him making movies for teens.
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I can’t determine it which is why I used “imo”.
 
Victory just wasn’t any good. MJ’s lack of participation showed he wasn’t interested. Only thing I liked was the tour and I got to see Mike live for the first time. Good stuff back in the day and it only cost me about $38 bucks for a ticket if I remember correctly. What a bargain that was.
 
Smooth72 said:
Victory just wasn’t any good. MJ’s lack of participation showed he wasn’t interested. Only thing I liked was the tour and I got to see Mike live for the first time. Good stuff back in the day and it only cost me about $38 bucks for a ticket if I remember correctly. What a bargain that was.
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What concert did you see? Any particularities you remember?
 
filmandmusic said:
I can’t determine it which is why I used “imo”.
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But your opinion is likely ignoring what people like. Also you're using an outdated idea of a "single". Technically there isn't a such thing as singles today with streaming & digital downloads. Some artists release more than 1 music video at the same time too, so you can't really go by that either. Beyoncé put out a video album called Lemonade. Artists like Drake & Taylor Swift got so many hits because when they release an album everything on the album charts at the same time, even multiple songs in the Top 10. So the 6th, 7th, & 8th singles hit the Hot 100 the same time as the 1st, lol. They didn't release a 45 or a cassette/CD single that you could buy at a record store. They also get hits from doing guest features on other artists songs. It's not like in the past where occasionally 2 artists release a duet (The Girl Is Mine). With modern mainstream popular albums, many of them have several features, usually a rapper. Maroon 5 has a song with Cardi B and Bruno Mars has 2 with her.
 
filmandmusic said:
What concert did you see? Any particularities you remember?
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Pontiac Silverdome August 17, 1984. Michael was great! Human Nature and Billie Jean were the standouts. Looking back the venue and stage were too big in my opinion. Compared to when I seen the Bad tour at the Palace in Auburn Hills. Bad Tour is the Holy Grail so to speak.
 
a little while ago, someone posted an a.i of michael singing lead on ‘wait’. while it elevated the track, it was still far behind the standards of classics like ‘blame it on the boogie’.

I don’t think the method of michael replacing his brothers as lead would work, because their songs lack the vocal range that he has. just like how freddie mercury replacing mick jaggar on ‘state of shock’ didn’t improve the song (may have actually made it worse).

the album has a lot of 80’s trappings and isn’t very memorable. especially for michael just coming off of ‘thriller’ - or even ‘off the wall’. the brothers aren’t lead singers. they’re decent at harmonising, but michael was better at stacking and blending his own vocals. he simply didn’t need them at this point.
 
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I think Victory as an album sounds very dated, a lot of the uptempo tracks sound like they could have fit right on the Beverly Hills Cop soundtrack for instance.
Which for an artist of Michael's calibre would have been disappointing

One of the best decisions he ever made was holding onto his best material for himself, thank God groundbreaking tracks like, Liberian Girl and Dirty Diana didn't end up on Victory.
 
kreen said:
He's involved as a singer or songwriter in 5 of the 8 songs on the album. By comparison, Jermaine is on 2 songs.
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That's because Jermaine wasn't originally involved with the Victory album. He came in way after the sessions had started. Jermaine's part on Torture was originally sung by Jackie. When Jermaine rejoined the group, he replaced Jackie's lead. On the 12" version Jackie's adlibs (that were removed on the album version) are still on it. There were even photo shoots involving the 5 member Triumph lineup, including the album cover done in a Little Rascals style. Jermaine was working on his 1984 self-titled solo album (I think it was titled Dynamite in some countries outside of the USA). Jermaine also recorded several duets with then new singer Whitney Houston. Including the song Don't Look Any Further, which was never released, but not long after it was recorded & released as a duet by Dennis Edwards (from The Temptations) & Siedah Garrett. I don't know how he became involved with Victory. Jermaine also asked Mike to sing on Rockwell's Somebody's Watching Me and Jermaine is on background vocals for that too. Rockwell was Jermaine's brother-in-law at the time. Around the same time, all the brothers, except Randy, sang background vocals on Janet's song Don't Stand Another Chance, which was produced by Marlon.
 
DuranDuran said:
That's because Jermaine wasn't originally involved with the Victory album. He came in way after the sessions had started. Jermaine's part on Torture was originally sung by Jackie. When Jermaine rejoined the group, he replaced Jackie's lead. On the 12" version Jackie's adlibs (that were removed on the album version) are still on it. There were even photo shoots involving the 5 member Triumph lineup, including the album cover done in a Little Rascals style. Jermaine was working on his 1984 self-titled solo album (I think it was titled Dynamite in some countries outside of the USA). Jermaine also recorded several duets with then new singer Whitney Houston. Including the song Don't Look Any Further, which was never released, but not long after it was recorded & released as a duet by Dennis Edwards (from The Temptations) & Siedah Garrett. I don't know how he became involved with Victory. Jermaine also asked Mike to sing on Rockwell's Somebody's Watching Me and Jermaine is on background vocals for that too. Rockwell was Jermaine's brother-in-law at the time. Around the same time, all the brothers, except Randy, sang background vocals on Janet's song Don't Stand Another Chance, which was produced by Marlon.
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I know all of this my man, I'm a long-time MJ nerd! :) But my point was to show that, for all the people who say MJ "was barely involved in Victory", he's actually got his hands in 5 of the 8 songs, so it's not like Jermaine, who indeed was barely involved, as he only contributes to two songs.
 
kreen said:
I know all of this my man, I'm a long-time MJ nerd! :) But my point was to show that, for all the people who say MJ "was barely involved in Victory", he's actually got his hands in 5 of the 8 songs, so it's not like Jermaine, who indeed was barely involved, as he only contributes to two songs.
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I think Smooth72 is taking about more so that his presence wasn't felt as much. He sang lead on 2 songs, whereas in other Jackson albums he was the lead singer of the album. He also was not in neither video supporting the album. There's a clear correlation to how much MJ sang and how well an album was received.

Are we really going to say that we (and the general public) don't favor the songs MJ plays a more dominate roll vocally?
 
Not really, I like a few songs on it, I'm not really going out of my way to compare it to stuff MJ did on his own, either.
 
filmandmusic said:
Mick ripping off Tina's skirt also predates the super bowl JT and Janet controversial performance.
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Unfortunately, it doesn't predate the Brotherhood of Man performance in 1981 on the Eurovision Song contest. Skirt ripping just didn't survive that, for me. :ROFLMAO:
 
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