Xscape General Discussion

[OnirMJ]

Then again, because the No 1 spot was tight, I wonder if all the boycotters(Sony, estate etc) or people who illegally downloaded it, had bought the album, maybe Xscape would have been No 1 even without any gimmicks.

It would, absolutely. Then it wouldn't be tight at all. Because there are a lot of boycotters. First you have people who boycott without any valid reason (people that lives in 2001-2002 time period and fight against Mottola led Sony, Branca haters - "fake will" conspiracy theories people, gullible people who don't have their opinion but blindly follow what Karen Faye or Randy says). That alone is a lot. And then you have people who boycott Estate because of releasing fake songs. So if you sum all that up, I'd say it's half of all fanbase.

 

[OnirMJ]

First of all, Xscape is not eligible because 51% must be newly recorded material and Xscape isn't recorded within 5 years (as per Grammy rules).
http://a2im.org/downloads/55_Grammy_Guidlines.pdf

If you look at Standard Edition only, then it is 100% newly recorded material (recorded in 2013 and 2014) (music). Or it has to be music + vocals?

But explain this:

The title track from the album, "This Is It", earned Michael Jackson a Grammy Nomination in 2011 for Best Male Pop Vocal Performance at the 53rd Annual Grammy Awards.

If the album is not eligible. They could have nominated MJ for best Vocal Performance.

 

[HIStoric]

But explain this:

The title track from the album, "This Is It", earned Michael Jackson a Grammy Nomination in 2011 for Best Male Pop Vocal Performance at the 53rd Annual Grammy Awards.

Hmm... perhaps new instrumental + newly recorded Jacksons background vocals were enough to make it eligible?

 

[Bubs]

If you look at Standard Edition only, then it is 100% newly recorded material (recorded in 2013 and 2014) (music). Or it has to be music + vocals?

But explain this:

The title track from the album, "This Is It", earned Michael Jackson a Grammy Nomination in 2011 for Best Male Pop Vocal Performance at the 53rd Annual Grammy Awards.

If the album is not eligible. They could have nominated MJ for best Vocal Performance.

To be honest, I think TII nomination for Best male pop vocal was mistake by screening members of committee
They are supposed to go thru eligibility of the songs:
Screening
Reviewing sessions by more than 150 experts in various fields are held to ensure that entered recordings meet specific qualifications and have been placed in appropriate fields such as Rock, R&B, Jazz, Country, Gospel, New Age, Rap, Classical and Latin, among others. The purpose of screenings is not to make artistic or technical judgments about the recordings, but rather to make sure that each entry is eligible and placed in its proper category.

and Grammy rules states:
Male Pop Vocal Performance Singles or Tracks Only
For newly recorded solo pop vocal performances. Vocal solos performed by members of an established duo or group are not eligible in this category as separate entries from the duo or group performances.

I would imagine that Grammy screening members discovered their mistake later when they found out that TII wasn't MJ's newly recorded track to accompany his 02 concert, and they kept their mistake under the wraps.

As for the bolded part, who do you refer as "they"?
I'm certain Epic submitted all of their acts/albums and songs where possible, but that doesn't mean that they get nominated.
It is up to Grammy's voting members, and if they don't like what they hear, there isn't going to be nomination.

 

[OnirMJ]

Hmm... perhaps new instrumental + newly recorded Jacksons background vocals were enough to make it eligible?

Then Love Never Felt So Good was also eligible. Especially as a duet.

 

[OnirMJ]

To be honest, I think TII nomination for Best male pop vocal was mistake by screening members of committee

I would imagine that Grammy screening members discovered their mistake later when they found out that TII wasn't MJ's newly recorded track to accompany his 02 concert, and they kept their mistake under the wraps.

Impossible as Paul Anka came out very publicly and said it was recorded in 1983. They obviously knew.

 

[OnirMJ]

As for the bolded part, who do you refer as "they"?
I'm certain Epic submitted all of their acts/albums and songs where possible, but that doesn't mean that they get nominated.

I was referring to Epic, yes. I meant submitted, not nominate. And it was posted here when that was actual. Epic did not submit anything MJ or Xscape related!

 

[Tygger]

Respect77, correct, that is the slide. I believe “release revenue in millions” means just that. These are the key 2014 releases and their expected business plan and/or projection in million$. It is logical because I believe there was an email complaining about Sony/ATV not generating enough monies for Legend’s “All of Me” (if I am remembering correctly). Xscape benefited from several revenue sources in the One Sony portal where others it seems relied on more traditional revenue sources, retail, royalties, etc.

I think their decision about Bad 25 was good business decision. That film was nothing special, decent film for TV special - in my opinion. And as a businessman I would make the same decision. Spike could have made a lot better film. Also you have to think that even if it was great (which it wasn't) that film wouldn't bring them revenue as the general public are not that interested in unknown (to them) people (engineers, MJ's friends and musicians from the 80's) talking about MJ and Bad.

Completely disagree. Similar films with less entertainment value have been made about the Beatles and those films are heavily promoted. The Beatles are also promoted as artistic geniuses as well as pop legends.

For Bad25, packaging would cure content. I agree with you that, although valuable, the demos would not receive extensive airplay. However; if the documentary was sold with the cd, promotion would hopefully focus more towards the artistic process of a musical genius and how the original Bad album was created. Thus, the Bad25 album is a companion piece and not the selling focus.

Instead, Sony chose to sell a 25 year old album in several confusing manifestations (collectors edition, deluxe collectors, different additional products depending on the retailer chosen, etc) to a public that for the most part had the album already. Sony also did not utilize the remixes they commissioned effectively. Pitbull is very successful as shown in the link and a dance video (similar to BTM's video) should have been created to capitalize on Pitbull's success, promote the remix and the Bad 25 album, and show Michael's music stands the test of time.

 

[Tygger]

Yes, it would have been great, but unfortunately they didn't have crystal ball to see that No 1 spot was so tight, although I'm quite sure there would have been outcry in media if those albums were included.

Then again, because the No 1 spot was tight, I wonder if all the boycotters(Sony, estate etc) or people who illegally downloaded it, had bought the album, maybe Xscape would have been No 1 even without any gimmicks.

--------------------------------------------

AS for poster who keeps bringing in nonsense about Xscape not being nominated for Grammy.
I have posted this info already that record labels don't nominate albums or songs for Grammy's, only submit them for screening.

Bubs, do not fear to type my name. laughs I see you are still posting the same nonsense that the Estate/Sony was not to blame for Xscape missing the U.S. number one spot.

Xscape could and should have been submitted for nomination.

First of all, Xscape is not eligible because 51% must be newly recorded material and Xscape isn't recorded within 5 years (as per Grammy rules).

That is why the LNFSG duet was submitted for a nomination.

If you would have continued reading the one page guideline, you maybe would have seen this:

The only categories that allow entries not newly recorded are Best Historical Album, Best Compilation Soundtrack Album, Best Surround Sound Album, Best Remixed Recording, Best Recording Package (if package is new), Best Album Notes (if notes are new) and certain multi-disc set releases in the classical Field.

And this:

Remixes of recordings released in a previous eligibility year are not eligible in any category except Best Remixed Recording.

Xscape could have been submitted for this category, nominated, and won. However; to submit Xscape for nomination would go against Xscape's promotion that it was contemporized and not a remix album, when it was a remix album by definition.

A Grammy nomination would promote Xscape the way it promoted TII. No worries because we learned Xscape was considered successful by Sony's standards because it showed profit could be generating through their One Sony portal.

Impossible as Paul Anka came out very publicly and said it was recorded in 1983. They obviously knew.

OnirMJ, it could be that TII was nominated because it came from a "compilation soundtrack album."

 

[OnirMJ]

Completely disagree. Similar films with less entertainment value have been made about the Beatles and those films are heavily promoted. The Beatles are also promoted as artistic geniuses as well as pop legends.

For Bad25, packaging would cure content. I agree with you that, although valuable, the demos would not receive extensive airplay. However; if the documentary was sold with the cd, promotion would hopefully focus more towards the artistic process of a musical genius and how the original Bad album was created. Thus, the Bad25 album is a companion piece and not the selling focus.

Instead, Sony chose to sell a 25 year old album in several confusing manifestations (collectors edition, deluxe collectors, different additional products depending on the retailer chosen, etc) to a public that for the most part had the album already. Sony also did not utilize the remixes they commissioned effectively. Pitbull is very successful as shown in the link and a dance video (similar to BTM's video) should have been created to capitalize on Pitbull's success, promote the remix and the Bad 25 album, and show Michael's music stands the test of time.

I think that Spike Lee's documentary could have been much better. And in my opinion Pitbull remix suck (remix is actually not bad, but his rapping is and that makes it bad).

 

[OnirMJ]

Xscape could have been submitted for this category, nominated, and won. However; to submit Xscape for nomination would go against Xscape's promotion that it was contemporized and not a remix album, when it was a remix album by definition.

I disagree, it's not a remix album and it should not have been nominated in that category. Epic was right about that. Grammys should then add a category "best posthumous album". Because that's what Xscape is. In my opinion it should have been eligible as new album.

 

[Tygger]

I think that Spike Lee's documentary could have been much better. And in my opinion Pitbull remix suck (remix is actually not bad, but his rapping is and that makes it bad).

Then you are hoping Lee does better with OTW? Estate/Sony must have been fine with the results of Bad25 to chose Lee again for OTW. They could chose another if they are so inclined.

Why not capitalize from Pitbull's success? That is why he was chosen.

I disagree, it's not a remix album and it should not have been nominated in that category. Epic was right about that. Grammys should then add a category "best posthumous album". Because that's what Xscape is. In my opinion it should have been eligible as new album.

I know you do not and will not see Xscape as a remix album but, it is by definition. To not see it nominated was to watch it not be promoted effectively and the producers not receiving their proper due.

 

[Paris78]

http://www.ifpi.org/news/Taylor-Swift-named-IFPI-global-recording-artists-of-2014

Top 10 global recording artists 2014

1 Taylor Swift
2 One Direction
3 Ed Sheeran
4 Coldplay
5 AC/DC
6 Michael Jackson
7 Pink Floyd
8 Sam Smith
9 Katy Perry
10 Beyoncé

 

[OnirMJ]

Then you are hoping Lee does better with OTW? Estate/Sony must have been fine with the results of Bad25 to chose Lee again for OTW. They could chose another if they are so inclined.

Why not capitalize from Pitbull's success? That is why he was chosen.

Absolutely. I hope there won't be Bieber, Mariah, Chris Brown, Cee Lo & Kanye talking about nothing, I hope there will be no unwatchable VHS clips and I hope there will be no "where were you when MJ died" irrelevant questions.

And I think Off The Wall is Spike Lee's independent project allowed by Estate (usage of MJ's image) and Sony Music (usage of MJ songs). It's not their project.

I think Pitbull was a bad choice.

I know you do not and will not see Xscape as a remix album but, it is by definition. To not see it nominated was to watch it not be promoted effectively and the producers not receiving their proper due.

By definition it is not a remix album. By definition it is posthumous compilation of unreleased material. But let's not open this topic again. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

 

[OnirMJ]

http://www.ifpi.org/news/Taylor-Swift-named-IFPI-global-recording-artists-of-2014

Top 10 global recording artists 2014

1 Taylor Swift
2 One Direction
3 Ed Sheeran
4 Coldplay
5 AC/DC
6 Michael Jackson
7 Pink Floyd
8 Sam Smith
9 Katy Perry
10 Beyoncé

Nice!

 

[HIStory]

^ Interesting, because this too says MJ sold more than Beyonce. I know this includes all sales, ie. catalog sales too, but I'm sure Beyonce's catalog sales too get a boost whenever she releases a new album. So I wonder how accurate Mediatraffik actually is when both Sony and the International Federation of Phonographic Industry say that MJ sold more.

 

[OnirMJ]

^ Interesting, because this too says MJ sold more than Beyonce. I know this includes all sales, ie. catalog sales too, but I'm sure Beyonce's catalog sales too get a boost whenever she releases a new album. So I wonder how accurate Mediatraffik actually is when both Sony and the International Federation of Phonographic Industry say that MJ sold more.

Beyonce catalog sales can't be compared to MJ's. Xscape helped all other MJ albums to have this great success this year that we are seeing right now. And that is the importance of new releases.

 

[Tygger]

It's not their project.

Question please: was Bad25 documentary their project or was that independent? How many more projects are available for Estate/Sony?

By definition it is not a remix album. By definition it is posthumous compilation of unreleased material. But let's not open this topic again. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

Agree to disagree.

Another question please: would you have like to have seen Xscape receive a Grammy nomination(s)? Do you believe that would be a positive to Michael's artistic legacy?

 

[Hess]

Xscape did well - and MJ is still extremly popular !!

 

[OnirMJ]

Question please: was Bad25 documentary their project or was that independent? How many more projects are available for Estate/Sony?

It was Estate/Sony project but as part of Bad 25 project so it is not counted separately. It was part of Bad 25 promotion.

1. This Is It Soundtrack
2. Vision
3. MICHAEL
4. Immortal Soundtrack
5. Bad 25
6. Xscape
7.
8.
9.
10.

So 4 more to go.

Agree to disagree.

Another question please: would you have like to have seen Xscape receive a Grammy nomination(s)? Do you believe that would be a positive to Michael's artistic legacy?

Absolutely. But in adequate category. Like Album of The Year, Record of the Year, Song of the Year, Best Pop Solo Performance, Best Pop Duo/Group Performance, Best Pop Vocal Album, Best R&B Performance, Best R&B Song, Best Urban Contemporary Album, Best R&B Album, Best Engineered Album Non-Classical, Producer of the Year Non-Classical, Best Music Video.

If there is some good remix released then Best Remixed Recording Non-Classical, yes. But I haven't heard a good remix of his work since he died. Maybe Nero remix of Speed Demon. Also Hollywood Tonight remixes weren't bad. Immortal was awful.

 

[OnirMJ]

I forgot.. David Morales remix of Love Never Felt So Good was pretty good. That should have been nominated for Best Remixed Recording.

 

[Tygger]

It was Estate/Sony project but as part of Bad 25 project so it is not counted separately. It was part of Bad 25 promotion.

1. This Is It Soundtrack
2. Vision
3. MICHAEL
4. Immortal Soundtrack
5. Bad 25
6. Xscape
7.
8.
9.
10.

So 4 more to go.

Thanks.

As long as we both agree that Xscape deserved a nomination(s), I have no issue with a disagreement in category. Not submitting Xscape was a wasted opportunity.

 

[Koopa Troopa]

 

[Hess]

Hmm, can't see it. - Think you put it in wrong.

 

[OnirMJ]

Hmm, can't see it. - Think you put it in wrong.

Me too.

 

[Bubs]

Impossible as Paul Anka came out very publicly and said it was recorded in 1983. They obviously knew.
---------------------------------------
Then Love Never Felt So Good was also eligible. Especially as a duet.

I don't think LNFSG was submitted to this category:
Pop Performance By A Duo Or Group With Vocals Singles or Tracks Only
For newly recorded pop performances with vocals. For established duos or groups only.

I think LNFSG was submitted for this category:
Pop Collaboration With Vocals Singles or Tracks Only
For newly recorded collaborative pop performances with vocals. For artists who do not normally perform together. The collaborative artist(s) should be recognized as a featured artist(s). In addition, there must be significant performance by the collaborative artist(s) beyond what might be considered merely accompaniment. These guidelines are essential for a collaboration to qualify. Final determination will be made by The Recording Academy's Screening Committees.

I still think TII was entry mistake as rules states
Male Pop Vocal Performance Singles or Tracks Only - For newly recorded solo pop vocal performances.

And it was posted here when that was actual. Epic did not submit anything MJ or Xscape related!

Maybe because Xscape didn't qualify, even if it did qualify, it still doesn't mean that it would have been nominated. Voting members may not agree with MJ fans

I see you are still posting the same nonsense that the Estate/Sony was not to blame for Xscape missing the U.S. number one spot.

You are funny Tygger. You cannot be any more obvious even if you tried.
Not only you blame The Estate for losing out No 1 spot, but you blame on Sony too. What Sony has got to do with the estates decision to reward MJ1 customers with Xscape album? Nothing at all, but hey its ok if you feel that way

I know that giving free album for MJ1 customer is a drop in the sea to compare people who boycott this or that, or just illegally downloaded it, but if it makes you happy to pinpoint losing No1 spot on those few thousand giveaways, its ok :smilerolleyes:


Remixes of recordings released in a previous eligibility year are not eligible in any category except Best Remixed Recording.
Xscape could have been submitted for this category, nominated, and won.

You need to read that bolded again.

"Xscape could have been submitted for this category, nominated, and won."
:rollin:

You know for sure that all voting members would have voted Xscape for winner, that's funny.

I'm going to leave you with this:
http://www2.grammy.com/pdfs/recording_academy/52guide.pdf

Happy readings.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

It was Estate/Sony project but as part of Bad 25 project so it is not counted separately. It was part of Bad 25 promotion.

1. This Is It Soundtrack
2. Vision
3. MICHAEL
4. Immortal Soundtrack
5. Bad 25
6. Xscape
7.
8.
9.
10.

So 4 more to go.

Onir, it's nice that you bring up that topic again!
Because i often think about it..
And i already posted my opinion on these 10 projects several times. Maybe you know my take on this is a little different. But i'm not 100% sure & so i think we can debate a little further.
I think there are more possibilities as to what was & will be part of those 10 projects.
Here are 3 possibilities:

a)
Project #1 - This Is It (Movie, Soundtrack, DVD)
Project #2 - Vision
Project #3 - MICHAEL
Project #4 - The Experience
Project #5 - Immortal (Tour & Soundtrack)
Project #6 - Bad 25 (CD, DVD, Spike-Docu Blu Ray)
Project #7 - The Indispensable & Fan Extra's Collections
Project #8 - Xscape
Project #9 - ??? (maybe Dangerous 25th in '16)
Project #10- ??? (maybe an audio-visual release like Thriller 3D, or 3D concert, or both combined for a double header)

I know what you all gonna say regarding "The Experience" being not part of the 10 projects, BUT: As the deal with sony was made public in 2010, there was explicitly the talk of MJ-video-game(s) as part of the deal. So if "Experience" is not part of the deal, where are those video games part of the deal? I'm quite sure that it was indeed part of the 10 projects, because sony was heavily involved, regarding licensing of the music. Again: If not, where are those video games which were described as being part of the deal then?

I also expect most of you to say that the iTunes-Indispensible-FanExtra release was not a part of the 10 projects. But what are the reasons for that? Yes it was low-key, yes it wasn't big in the fan community. Nonetheless i think it's not a small thing to have the whole music catalogue of the greatest recording artist ever 2 clicks away, mastered for itunes, on the biggest online music download site. It even has an never before released track (the COMPLETE Carousel from Thriller sessions) as part of the packages & some pretty rare stuff as Can't Get Out Of The Rain... I definitely think this release was part of the 10 projects, even if in fans eyes it's not a big thing. For the general (iTunes) public it is a big deal if i'm newly interest in an all time great recording artist & icon and i can go to iTunes an can download his whole catalog in 2 packages.


Ok, also i'm pretty sure with the above, on to the next possibility:

b)
Project #1 - This Is It (Movie, Soundtrack, DVD)
Project #2 - Vision
Project #3 - MICHAEL
Project #4 - Immortal (Tour & Soundtrack)
Project #5 - Bad 25 (CD, DVD, Spike-Docu Blu Ray)
Project #6 - The Indispensable & Fan Extra's Collections
Project #7 - Xscape
Project #8 - ??? (maybe Dangerous 25th in '16)
Project #9 - ??? (maybe an audio-visual release like Thriller 3D, or 3D concert, or both combined for a double header)
Project #10- ??? (maybe another album of unreleased material in 2017 as the final release of the FIRST deal)

I maybe wrong with one of the 2, either "Experience" or "Indispensable/Fan Extra Collection". So maybe it's likely that there are 3 projects remaining. One for 15, one in 16, one in 17. Or 2 projects in one year & and a one year pause.


So last, not least coming to the third possibility:

c)
Project #1 - This Is It (Movie, Soundtrack, DVD)
Project #2 - Vision
Project #3 - MICHAEL
Project #4 - Immortal (Tour & Soundtrack)
Project #5 - Bad 25 (CD, DVD, Spike-Docu Blu Ray)
Project #6 - Xscape
Project #7 - ??? (Off The Wall 35th anniversary + docu) or (HIStory 20th anniversary with HIStory-Tour 3D)
Project #8 - ??? (maybe Dangerous 25th in '16)
Project #9 - ??? (maybe an audio-visual release like Thriller 3D, or 3D concert, or both combined for a double header)
Project #10- ??? (maybe another album of unreleased material in 2017 as the final release of the FIRST deal)

Highly highly unlikely. The market is pretty full with MJ already. 6th best recording artist of 2014 (by the way: YEEAASSSSS!!!) shows that. And then there should be 4 projects coming in 2 years of time?? Remember in 2 years from now, we have already 2017. It would be pretty nice for us, if it would be like that. But i'm highly doubtful of that. 4 projects in 2 - 2 1/2 years? Would be a little overkill for the general public IMO.
Again: In the sony deal there was always the talk of video game(s). And we got one, so...
Then: Only because "Indispensable Collection" is not highly regarded in the fan base, doesn't mean it's not part of the 10 projects. Until this day i haven't heard a reasonable explanation why it should not be part of the deal.
I also never heard a reasonable explanation about the lack of video games from the sony deal, if the "Experience" really wasn't part of the deal.


I would be happy discussing!

Maybe even Qbee (who had contact with the sony/estate powers regarding Xscape) or Ivy have an opinion on that (rather banal topic, i know)???

 

[serendipity]

I don't think LNFSG was submitted to this category:
Pop Performance By A Duo Or Group With Vocals Singles or Tracks Only
For newly recorded pop performances with vocals. For established duos or groups only.

I think LNFSG was submitted for this category:
Pop Collaboration With Vocals Singles or Tracks Only
For newly recorded collaborative pop performances with vocals. For artists who do not normally perform together. The collaborative artist(s) should be recognized as a featured artist(s). In addition, there must be significant performance by the collaborative artist(s) beyond what might be considered merely accompaniment. These guidelines are essential for a collaboration to qualify. Final determination will be made by The Recording Academy's Screening Committees.
.

Bubs, this is old. The Grammy's merged (and dropped) some categories a few years ago and these two categories (Pop Performance by Duo or Group and Pop Collaboration) were merged into one category which is the Pop Duo/Group Performance where LNFSG was submitted.

It was also submitted for one of the major categories - Record Of The Year.

 

[Bubs]

Bubs, this is old. The Grammy's merged (and dropped) some categories a few years ago and these two categories (Pop Performance by Duo or Group and Pop Collaboration) were merged into one category which is the Pop Duo/Group Performance where LNFSG was submitted.

It was also submitted for one of the major categories - Record Of The Year.

Oh ok, thanks for the info.If I have time later, I look into that change.

Btw, thanks for noticing the difference between submitting and nominating:bow:
Was LNFSG submitted to Record of the year category or do you mean TII?

 

[serendipity]

Oh ok, thanks for the info.If I have time later, I look into that change.

Btw, thanks for noticing the difference between submitting and nominating:bow:
Was LNFSG submitted to Record of the year category or do you mean TII?

Yes, it was LNFSG, they submitted it for two categories - Record Of The Year and Pop Duo?Group Performance.