Did MJ Have ANY Faults?

Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Every time I say anything I get attacked by the same group of people. I'm sick of it honestly. I shouldn't have to explain that my opinion isn't me being a hater or not bias every single time I say anything that isn't positive. I'm sick of it. I just want to have discussions on here and I can't do that because some people like to make other people feel like their opinions are stupid or wrong. I'm also sick of certain people mentioning me without quoting me and calling me "obsessed" or "unhappy". As AlwaysThere there said, if I wasn't such a big fan of MJ I don't think I'd be able to frequent this board anymore. My problem is the overwhelming positivity is sickening quite honestly. There's no room for balanced discussion when people just like to shoot it down. I think I need to take a break from here. I want to like this place but I just find myself being annoyed more often than not. I never said I had a problem with people wanting to be positive about MJ. I don't go out of my way to be negative about MJ as some people like to think, I just discuss things how I see them and people don't like that apparently. Constant positive MJ discussion just isn't mentally stimulating honestly, if I wanted to see people say how great MJ is for a few hours I'd put on the Off The Wall documentary. Anyway I'm done with this place for a while. I try to get on with people here but all I get is the same people trying to make me look like an idiot.

But don't you think that your own negative approach contributes to this as well? Your first post in this thread was already dismissive of fellow fans here, assuming that they just can't handle a thread that talks about Michael as anything other than perfect. How is that conducive to a balanced discussion? This thread is 5 pages long now, how many people have called you (or anyone else who is critical) stupid or biased? I just don't see it. It's rather the other way around, it's the fans who prefer to focus on the positive that are constantly berated as 'delusional', 'stans', 'obsessive'. Or 'sickening' as you call it.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Why the hostile attitude? You approach every thread this way. No, not every fan here believes Michael was a perfect angel and no one's going to scream at you for discussing Michael's faults when it is relevant to the topic thread. I personally just don't see the point of dwelling on someone's faults all the time, especially on a fan board. There's enough of that outside of the fan community, most people come here as a reprieve from that and to celebrate the man we all love. What is wrong with that?
This is me! I didn't become a fan of Michael Jackson because of his faults! I became a fan because of the music and performances and happy memories that helped me through a hard upbringing. Did he have faults? Tons of them like any one else. Do I give a shit? Not to the extent that a lot of people seem to have. I mean, if I did, why would I spend my time being a fan? My fandome of MJ is quite healthy; I listen to his music, I watch him perform, I read a lot about him and I come here from time to time. That gives me pleasure, that's sort of the point.

I think there's a sort of underlying issue here; why does anyone else care about how other people enjoy Michael Jackson? Equally, in the real world when a person tells me how much of a monster he was I find myself asking them; why the f%#k do you think I care what you think?!

To each their own. Live and let live.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Nobody is perfect (except God) ; every one is flawed. It's a fact. People cannot help but judging someone else, regarding this one's personality and actions. They do this in different ways : some notice one's flaws and bad actions more, some notice one's qualities and good actions more, and some try to note both the good and the bad in one's personality and actions.
I am one of those who chose to notice and remember the qualities and good actions of people, firstly. If I note more qualities and a greater deal of positive actions in someone's character and life, that's good for this person. If not, then, so be it.

Regarding Michael, honestly, I note a greater deal of qualities and positive actions than the opposite : he was a beautiful soul. I can't say the same for those who were close to him (or claim to be close to him) as relatives, friends and/or coworkers.

However, the (few) flaws I've noticed in Michael's personality and actions are :
- the fact that he excessively trusted people (some of them turned out to be not-so-trustworthy people). In a society where excessive trusting, combined with kindness, is pretty much regarded as a weakness, it backfired.
- an excessive modesty at times.
- on one hand, being more reactive than proactive, sometimes, regarding the press' speculations about him in particular.
- and, on the other hand, the lack of reactivity regarding this.

That's pretty much all I can reproach to Michael. That hasn't made his numerous qualities and positive actions magically disappear, nor changed how I feel about him.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

The truth is, we've discussed everything else to death.

Every song, every short film, every tour.

Even ****ing Privacy had its own thread recently.

His foibles are the only thing that gets us debating now. But those that hold him up as a deity shouldn't join in.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

But don't you think that your own negative approach contributes to this as well? Your first post in this thread was already dismissive of fellow fans here, assuming that they just can't handle a thread that talks about Michael as anything other than perfect. How is that conducive to a balanced discussion? This thread is 5 pages long now, how many people have called you (or anyone else who is critical) stupid or biased? I just don't see it. It's rather the other way around, it's the fans who prefer to focus on the positive that are constantly berated as 'delusional', 'stans', 'obsessive'. Or 'sickening' as you call it.

I think you'll find me and a few others have already been called obsessed and unhappy in this very thread. Just because we're not named in the post it doesn't mean that it isn't directed at us. I guess I do need to relax. I just expect to be attacked by certain people here now tbh. I'm just sick of people feeling like they must defend MJ at all costs, so much so they jump into discussions to tell people that their opinion is wrong. I do get worked up I admit that but there's a reason. I'm not just making up how some people here behave in my head. It's just the same old discussion over and over again here now tbh. We should be allowed to discuss things that aren't regularly discussed about MJ, and a lot of those things aren't entirely positive unfortunately.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

TBH, if someone has opinions about MJ that are SO bad that it could get them banned, maybe an MJ fan site isn't the best place for that person in the first place. :/

The mods on here aren't ban happy or anything, so I can only imagine that the opinion would be really bad.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

the biggest mistake MJ ever made was making the god awful """song""" Privacy

don't know what prescription drugs MJ was on at the time while making that but repetitive camera noises and a boring chorus doesn't make a good song

(the drugs part is a >>>JOKE
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

The truth is, we've discussed everything else to death.

Every song, every short film, every tour.

Even ****ing Privacy had its own thread recently.

His foibles are the only thing that gets us debating now. But those that hold him up as a deity shouldn't join in.
We need you now more that ever!! :lol:



I think it's fine to talk about the negative aspects, the less than perfect choices, by all means it can make for interesting and insightful discussions. But I think to truly do that you've got to have a balanced opinion to begin with, And to be honest that's rarely the case. That works both ways. I mean just as their can be the Stans there can be those people steeped in a dark cloud of negativity that's just as grating. From time to time I'm happy to discuss the poor choices, the mistakes he made, but I don't really want to spend my life doing that. I mean I would imagine anyone who does that is quite a bitter and insecure person. I mean, f#%k me! Are you then a fan or are you just a very unhappy person? And that's not aimed at ANYONE! So please don't take it as so.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

The truth is, we've discussed everything else to death.

Every song, every short film, every tour.

Even ****ing Privacy had its own thread recently.

His foibles are the only thing that gets us debating now. But those that hold him up as a deity shouldn't join in.

It's an interesting topic of discussion too, as long as everyone treats each other - and Michael - with respect. I don't doubt that we all love Michael so there should be a place for a discussion like this on the forum. It needn't be tucked away in the 'Hood' section IMO. Besides, we've had similar threads (like the "what makes you a heretic among MJ fans" thread) before without any problems.

There's one thing about Michael that I completely changed my mind about in the past week but I didn't really find the thread to share it. Perhaps this is the place. I've always felt this strange contradiction about Michael that he was very humble but at the same time seemed megalomaniacal. I didn't understand the HIStory statues, the obsession with breaking records, wanting to be called the King of Pop, the weird paintings that depicted him as a king or an angel, how he wanted us all to see the fans' extreme adulation, et cetera. To me it went beyond ambition and I even suspected he had narcissistic disorder (not in the nasty sense that people associate it with, just in the sense that he craved outside approval and needed to think of himself as exceptional).

But then a few days ago I came across an article of a woman - I think she was a professor - who did a critical analysis of the Black or White video. I never really understood the meaning behind that video and the controversial ending but that article was a true eye opener for me. This woman grew up in the 1960s and she related a conversation she had with her black friend (she herself was white). She described the racism that Michael experienced growing up and the racism and denigration that his family members and musical role models (Sammy Davis Jr, James Brown, etc.) were treated with. Of course I knew Michael had to deal with racism but as a white European woman in my 20s, I had never realised what a profound impact this must have had on Michael. He had a natural competitive streak anyway but he must have felt like he needed to work twice as hard to get the recognition that white artists like Elvis and the Beatles got (and he was probably right). As the author of that article noted, he needed undeniable proof of success in the form of record sales, sold out concerts, global adulation, to prove that he could be equal to or surpass the greatest white artists. That's why it was important to him to be recognised as the King of Pop and to have the greatest selling album of all time. All of these symbols - the statues, the paintings, the records, the awards, the adulation - were a way to signal to the outside world that he was an man of accomplishment, not to be denigrated or dismissed like his predecessors. Now it makes sense to me how he could be so humble yet at the same time care so much about 'superficial' signs of success that a "real" artist shouldn't care about. This is probably already common knowledge among his black/minority fans but it came as a revelation to me, and I consider myself to be rather worldly :p
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

*shifty eyes* Erm, please tell me the goal / point of this question / thread?
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

It's an interesting topic of discussion too, as long as everyone treats each other - and Michael - with respect. I don't doubt that we all love Michael so there should be a place for a discussion like this on the forum. It needn't be tucked away in the 'Hood' section IMO. Besides, we've had similar threads (like the "what makes you a heretic among MJ fans" thread) before without any problems.

There's one thing about Michael that I completely changed my mind about in the past week but I didn't really find the thread to share it. Perhaps this is the place. I've always felt this strange contradiction about Michael that he was very humble but at the same time seemed megalomaniacal. I didn't understand the HIStory statues, the obsession with breaking records, wanting to be called the King of Pop, the weird paintings that depicted him as a king or an angel, how he wanted us all to see the fans' extreme adulation, et cetera. To me it went beyond ambition and I even suspected he had narcissistic disorder (not in the nasty sense that people associate it with, just in the sense that he craved outside approval and needed to think of himself as exceptional).

But then a few days ago I came across an article of a woman - I think she was a professor - who did a critical analysis of the Black or White video. I never really understood the meaning behind that video and the controversial ending but that article was a true eye opener for me. This woman grew up in the 1960s and she related a conversation she had with her black friend (she herself was white). She described the racism that Michael experienced growing up and the racism and denigration that his family members and musical role models (Sammy Davis Jr, James Brown, etc.) were treated with. Of course I knew Michael had to deal with racism but as a white European woman in my 20s, I had never realised what a profound impact this must have had on Michael. He had a natural competitive streak anyway but he must have felt like he needed to work twice as hard to get the recognition that white artists like Elvis and the Beatles got (and he was probably right). As the author of that article noted, he needed undeniable proof of success in the form of record sales, sold out concerts, global adulation, to prove that he could be equal to or surpass the greatest white artists. That's why it was important to him to be recognised as the King of Pop and to have the greatest selling album of all time. All of these symbols - the statues, the paintings, the records, the awards, the adulation - were a way to signal to the outside world that he was an man of accomplishment, not to be denigrated or dismissed like his predecessors. Now it makes sense to me how he could be so humble yet at the same time care so much about 'superficial' signs of success that a "real" artist shouldn't care about. This is probably already common knowledge among his black/minority fans but it came as a revelation to me, and I consider myself to be rather worldly :p
Awesome post! Balanced point of view and all things considered.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Is this a serious question? The answer is yes of course. He was human after all.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Do I think Michael had flaws like any other human being? We wouldn't be humans if we didn't have any defect.

Do I mind them? I mostly don't, the only flaw it made my heart ache and go out for Michael was the fact of being extremely trusting of horrible people who had no place in his life and hurt him so badly. I understand some of you didn't agree with some of his choices and actions, neither did I but I can't concieve you thinking Michael deserved the backlash he got, he didn't.

Since his detractors can't criticize in fairness his artistic contributions and unparalleled acomplishments, they do so with the human being which wasn't perfect by any means. The treatment he recieved throught his life was not fair but in 1993 was like witnessing the Inquisition unleashed at him without giving him any chance to defend himself and having a fair criminal trial and it was intensified in 2003-2005 with the difference of being rightfully acquitted. Their backlash and treatment to Michael was downright cruel. How can you say he deserved the backlash he got even if his actions would get criticism even though we know they weren't fair to him?
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Do I think Michael had flaws like any other human being? We wouldn't be humans if we didn't have any defect.

Do I mind them? I mostly don't, the only flaw it made my heart ache and go out for Michael was the fact of being extremely trusting of horrible people who had no place in his life and hurt him so badly. I understand some of you didn't agree with some of his choices and actions, neither did I but I can't concieve you thinking Michael deserved the backlash he got, he didn't.

Since his detractors can't criticize in fairness his artistic contributions and unparalleled acomplishments, they do so with the human being which wasn't perfect by any means. The treatment he recieved throught his life was not fair but in 1993 was like witnessing the Inquisition unleashed at him without giving him any chance to defend himself and having a fair criminal trial and it was intensified in 2003-2005 with the difference of being rightfully acquitted. Their backlash and treatment to Michael was downright cruel. How can you say he deserved the backlash he got even if his actions would get criticism even though we know they weren't fair to him?
If anyone thinks he deserved all of THAT it's pretty cruel. I mean yes he was naive and too trusting, perhaps though after 93 he shouldn't have put himself in such a vulnerable position, but Bashir took the situation to serve his own agenda. Sneddon was after him for years and years. No, MJ didn't deserve any of that. I don't think he ever fully recovered after 2005.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

In my opinio
Personality wise? Flat out, the man had some less-than-intelligent moments. I won't dwell on them here, but to put it simply, there were situations in which I'm convinced he totally deserved whatever backlash he got. He was a smart man by all measures, and a beautiful human being, but he seemed to do whatever he wanted to, completely regardless of what anyone else may have suggested.

I made my first comment regarding the bolded part and I firmly believe he didn't deserve at any moment all the backlash he got. One thing is not agreeing with his actions and making a fair criticism and another thing is downright condemnation and lyching like the sheeple did. He made mistakes and bad choices like any person would but those mistakes didn't make him a monster or a criminal; however he was treated worse than any kind of criminal or person who inflicted evil and suffering into innocent individuals in our time. Any other celebrity could get away with many things but if Michael did them they were out of proportion.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

It disturbed me the comment I quoted and I felt the need to vent but I honestly don't see the goal of the thread, in reality.
 
One flaw Michael Jackson had was that he was just too good looking. So good looking to the point of making the ladies go crazy and faint.




¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Not really. Look at my previous posts on this forum. Back in '08 I used to have a youtube channel dedicated to MJ, not a troll, a fan who idolises MJ a little too much.
lol I never said that you're not a fan. but I think you knew when making this thread what it started, and it did

It disturbed me the comment I quoted and I felt the need to vent but I honestly don't see the goal of the thread, in reality.
yeah, me neither. it's just yet another opportunity to bash him for those who seems to enjoy doing that

I think there's a sort of underlying issue here; why does anyone else care about how other people enjoy Michael Jackson? Equally, in the real world when a person tells me how much of a monster he was I find myself asking them; why the f%#k do you think I care what you think?!

To each their own. Live and let live.
exactly. apparently some people on here are really bothered by the way some people are fans. the remarks are unnecessary. when saying something they don't agree with, I mean, when it comes to the way being a fan
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

I made my first comment regarding the bolded part and I firmly believe he didn't deserve at any moment all the backlash he got. One thing is not agreeing with his actions and making a fair criticism and another thing is downright condemnation and lyching like the sheeple did. He made mistakes and bad choices like any person would but those mistakes didn't make him a monster or a criminal; however he was treated worse than any kind of criminal or person who inflicted evil and suffering into innocent individuals in our time. Any other celebrity could get away with many things but if Michael did them they were out of proportion.

Just to clarify, the quoted part of my post was not aimed at either of the child abuse cases Michael suffered through. No innocent human on Earth deserves that sort of psychological and mental trauma, much less someone like Michael. Those were undeserved.

I will defend Michael Jackson at every turn where I feel he deserves it. I've spent my life warding off people who questioned my admiration for the man because of the 1993/2005/posthumous allegations, plastic surgery, the biological connection between him and his children, so on and so forth, and I continue to do it today. But there are certain situations that are brought up in which I cannot rightfully defend him and have to agree with doubters. Why? Because, in my eyes, he occasionally acted outrageously stupid. There's no way around that.

Holding Blanket over a balcony, for example. Regardless of what may have been running through Michael's mind in the moment, there's no excuse for that. It was immature, nonsensical, and I firmly believe he deserved the backlash he got.

Refusing to discuss his vitiligo after his skin began visibly lightening. I understand it was a sensitive topic, but choosing to stay silent on the matter for seven years did nothing but cause people to question your honesty. Even today, people still find it difficult to believe (despite his autopsy confirming it), and I can't very well blame them for it.

Or better yet, holding the hand of Gavin Arvizo on national television and discussing sleeping arrangements in the same room. That's in a league of its own. In short, it conjured up memories of the 1993 situation and, while the accusations were abhorrent, I cannot blame people for watching that clip and thinking, "What in the hell is that man doing!?" I can't watch that clip myself without cringing.

We are doing Michael Jackson a disservice by pretending as if he never completely screwed up. We as humans will make mistakes, and we must forgive and move forward with them. But forgiveness does not mean forgetting they ever happened or justifying their results/intents; it means acknowledging that something was stupid and being honest with oneself. And looking at his mistakes and shrugging them off is not honesty, it's fanboyism to the extreme.

That's where my post stems from.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Holding Blanket over a balcony, for example. Regardless of what may have been running through Michael's mind in the moment, there's no excuse for that. It was immature, nonsensical, and I firmly believe he deserved the backlash he got.

I don't think it is a main narrative in the fandom that it was alright. I think what fans have a problem with is harping on it for 10+ years or (like the media did at the time) as if that makes him the worst parent in the world. So much so that people like that witch Gloria Allred started legal proceedings to take his kids away from him. Do you really think that was all deserved for a bad moment of judgement? Do you really think it was fair for people to judge him as a parent based on that one moment? That wasn't overreaction on the media's and people's part? Bad judgement never happens to any other parent in the world? And when it does do people keep harping on it for years and decades? And would that really be deserved and fair?

It was a moment of bad judgement on his part. But the reaction to it was an overreaction which had more to do with the general prejudices against him than anything else. You should be able to admit that too.

I have seen a photo of Tom Cruise dangling his baby daughter over the head of a crocodile. I don't know how much he was criticized for it at the time (possibly he was) but I don't see it being held against him still XX years later. Or his fatherhood being judged based on that one moment. Or people filing complaints against him as a parent. An accident can happen with this general practice as well and everyone thinks it is cute:

14316820_10210479307757985_6104761719399703713_n.jpg


I think what bothers MJ fans is the overreaction and the need of harping on such things for many years (even by some fans), not the criticism in itself.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Lots of good point here on both sides (Always There & Respect77).

Ironically, I'm damn sure MJ himself would be the first to admit he was as flawed as the next man.*

(* disclaimer: unless the next man was Donald Trump)
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Lots of good point here on both sides (Always There & Respect77).

Ironically, I'm damn sure MJ himself would be the first to admit he was as flawed as the next man.*

(* disclaimer: unless the next man was Donald Trump)

lol

2,w=993,q=high,c=0.bild.jpg



:eviltongue::eviltongue::eviltongue:



:notworking: :notworking: :notworking:
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

I don't think it is a main narrative in the fandom that it was alright. I think what fans have a problem with is harping on it for 10+ years or (like the media did at the time) as if that makes him the worst parent in the world. So much so that people like that witch Gloria Allred started legal proceedings to take his kids away from him. Do you really think that was all deserved for a bad moment of judgement? Do you really think it was fair for people to judge him as a parent based on that one moment? That wasn't overreaction on the media's and people's part? Bad judgement never happens to any other parent in the world? And when it does do people keep harping on it for years and decades? And would that really be deserved and fair?

I can respect that. I only acknowledge it here because it is, after all, a thread discussing Michael's faults, and that certainly is something that should be mentioned and/or discussed in some capacity. I try not to acknowledge certain things if they were one-offs and/or didn't amount to much.

To that end, I can understand the thought process behind certain reactions and can't blame them for it, though many have taken it much too far.

For example, as you mentioned, Gloria Alfred. Being furious at Michael for the incident and criticizing him, I can support and justify. But going as far as she did, what with attempting to get his children removed? Ridiculous and uncalled for.
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

I have seen a photo of Tom Cruise dangling his baby daughter over the head of a crocodile. I don't know how much he was criticized for it at the time (possibly he was) but I don't see it being held against him still XX years later.

Not saying you're lying, but did he actually? I've spent the last few minutes searching variations of "tom cruise daughter crocodile" and not a single thing is coming up...
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

Not saying you're lying, but did he actually? I've spent the last few minutes searching variations of "tom cruise daughter crocodile" and not a single thing is coming up...

:lol:


No offence :)
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

It was immature, nonsensical, and I firmly believe he deserved the backlash he got.

Quite frankly, I would not expect a different answer from you.

Bear in mind also that, unlike MJ, the 2009 incident with Tom Cruise dangling his baby over a river was almost entirely ignored by the media/tabloids.

Not saying you're lying, but did he actually? I've spent the last few minutes searching variations of "tom cruise daughter crocodile" and not a single thing is coming up...

The only available photo seems to be that one:

http://mforum.cari.com.my/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=447346
 
Re: Did MJ have ANY faults?

What about Steve Irwin dangling his baby boy in front of a crocodile or alligator? I know Steve was nowhere near as famous as Michael but the backlash he got was mild compared to Michael and what Steve did was more dangerous.

Also when Michael showed Prince like Rafiki did with Simba no one made the big deal they made wit Blanket. The difference was Blanket moving the way he did.

 
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