Motown 25: Brief Rehearsal Clips

[Zakk]

I wonder if Michael rehearsed Billie Jean with playback? Most likely. That might be the reason why Estate doesn't allow them to include full rehearsal footage.

Not at all, Michael always rehearsed with live vocals (except a few performances)! that was confirmed some time ago.

 

[Tygger]

If MJ didn't perform at Motown 25 and did moonwalk there, NOTHING, absolutely nothing would have changed. He would just performed it somewhere else. He would still be the greatest ever and some other show would enter history. You are giving way too much credit to that show. MJ had that in him, it was a matter of time.

OnirMJ, please learn your MJ history. ALL of the acts that were still alive came back that night to salute Gordy. That historic night would NOT be the same without the reunion of J5. The fact that J5 was on Motown to begin with has significant importance.

You would not be able to name one television show where Michael could have done what he did among greats and still stand above them. That is the context here. Anything else actually diminishes Michael's achievement that night.

The Estate made a mistake; pure and simple. Humans do that. That is not taking a anti-Estate stance. It is simply stating an obvious reality. IF you see the full rehearsal on an Estate/Sony release it will be out of context. This was Michael's moment to continue to shine and it was decided that should not be so.

 

[Galactus123]

Not at all, Michael always rehearsed with live vocals (except a few performances)! that was confirmed some time ago.

This could have been exception. You can hear the song in the video.

 

[OnirMJ]

OnirMJ, please learn your MJ history. ALL of the acts that were still alive came back that night to salute Gordy. That historic night would NOT be the same without the reunion of J5. The fact that J5 was on Motown to begin with has significant importance.

You would not be able to name one television show where Michael could have done what he did among greats and still stand above them.

I think you are giving way too much credit to that show. If it wasn't Motown 25 it would be Grammy Awards or some other awards show or performance or concert or tour. It was MJ's performance that mattered not the place.

 

[Birchey]

Your hate towards Xscape is your problem. They did nothing wrong there. Releasing original versions/demos is brilliant thing.

That has got nothing to do with the fact I am upset the Rehearsals were left off this release, neither will I elaborate on that, its been said and deleted in this thread, wont go there again.

The problem with those private seminars is possible leakage of unreleased material - that is protective! Also MJ didn't allow him to take footage of him or to use MJ's personal footage in that kind of way.

Nearly all the Leaked material we have had over the last few years was easily stolen from either Sony's servers or people who have given groups of fans digital or hard copies. Audio leaked from Brads seminar did they not allow him to play any audio anymore? No so that excuse is flawed. Can you point me to where it says MJ didn't allow the footage to be taken or if it is MJ's footage? Because I would like to read about it.

If MJ didn't perform at Motown 25 and did moonwalk there, NOTHING, absolutely nothing would have changed. He would just performed it somewhere else. He would still be the greatest ever and some other show would enter history. You are giving way too much credit to that show. MJ had that in him, it was a matter of time.

Lol really? Where else was MJ supposed to perform this song around its release time? Michael came up with these ideas for the routine (Costume and Dance etc) specifically because of Motown 25, there is no where else this would have happened, MJ himself said he didn't want to perform on television so if Berry Gordy had not coaxed him into i........ Maybe you could read some more on the history of this performance, it was pretty special.

 

[OnirMJ]

Can you point me to where it says MJ didn't allow the footage to be taken or if it is MJ's footage? Because I would like to read about it.

Re-read my post: "MJ didn't allow him to take footage of him or to use MJ's personal footage in that kind of way."

"in that kind of way"

I think it is MJ's footage that Brad just had copy of it. Or MJ gave him the copy or permission to film him while recording for his personal use - watching it at home. And not making money of of it.

I think the seminars are positive thing and that Brad is a great guy, don't get me wrong. But I don't know how I feel about using unreleased material, especially studio footage without Michael's (and now his Estate's) permission - in that kind of way.

 

[Birchey]

Re-read my post: "MJ didn't allow him to take footage of him or to use MJ's personal footage in that kind of way."

"in that kind of way"

I think it is MJ's footage that Brad just had copy of it. Or MJ gave him the copy or permission to film him while recording for his personal use - watching it at home. And not making money of of it.

I think the seminars are positive thing and that Brad is a great guy, don't get me wrong. But I don't know how I feel about using unreleased material, especially studio footage without Michael's (and now his Estate's) permission - in that kind of way.

MJ also didn't create Demos for future release, perform concerts for future release but thats just the way things have to go now. and I think whilst there is interest for these things, if they are done respectfully and by the people who were friends with and helped create MJ's music, then I don't see whats wrong.

For all we know Brad owns the footage but does not want to upset the Estate or for all we know MJ allowed him a copy for whatever reason he wanted. After all copies of tapes MJ has gifted to people have been auctioned and sold since his death. Even copies of the extended Motown 25 have been circulating in collectors hands for years and years.

 

[ivy]

for all we know Brad owns the footage but does not want to upset the Estate or for all we know MJ allowed him a copy for whatever reason he wanted.

just very shortly : there was a discussion about this plus the discussion about last photo shoots. Even though Brad might be the owner of the footage - aka the physical tape- Estate still has image and likeliness rights. Similarly there's a difference between private use and commercial use of a material. So even though Brad might own the footage, his public / commercial use of most probably require Estate's approval. Everything aside given all those video/audio files Brad uses includes MJ songs, at minimum Estate would definitely have a copyright claim on them.

The best example would be Jacksons Variety Show Master Tapes that Vaccaro had (and now sold). He acquired them legally through a bankruptcy sale so he was the legal owner of the physical copies and he could have played them privately. However Michael and his Estate still maintained Michael's copyright, image and likeliness and any commercial use of such material needs Estate's approval. (edited to add: Frank Cascio also seems to be gifted some audio files and that makes him legal owner of the CD and he could sell it to a private collector - which he did. However Estate still maintains copyrights and control over commercial release).

I think it gets confusing sometimes due to the nature that these items have two aspects.

 

[OnirMJ]

MJ also didn't create Demos for future release, perform concerts for future release.

Of course he did! Why do you think he filmed several shows on film during Victory & Bad tours?? HIStory Tour with HD cameras?? Of course for its release one day. He wasn't stupid.

Also one thing is demos (LNFSG, This Is It...) and of course some of those songs weren't meant for release in that shape. Also there are songs like Hollywood Tonight that he wanted to release but he didn't finish them and recorded full or final vocals. BUT there are many songs that were professionally recorded for release - outtakes NOT demos, like majority of Xscape album, Hold My Hand, Another Day... I doubt he would re-record any of these vocals for potential future release (for example: Come Together recorded 1985, released 1995...). Again he was not stupid, he recorded them for release but at the time he had or better songs or songs that fitted the album better or time limit on the vinyl/CD.

 

[OnirMJ]

just very shortly : there was a discussion about this plus the discussion about last photo shoots. Even though Brad might be the owner of the footage - aka the physical tape- Estate still has image and likeliness rights. Similarly there's a difference between private use and commercial use of a material. So even though Brad might own the footage, his public / commercial use of most probably require Estate's approval. Everything aside given all those video/audio files Brad uses includes MJ songs, at minimum Estate would definitely have a copyright claim on them.

The best example would be Jacksons Variety Show Master Tapes that Vaccaro had (and now sold). He acquired them legally through a bankruptcy sale so he was the legal owner of the physical copies and he could have played them privately. However Michael and his Estate still maintained Michael's copyright, image and likeliness and any commercial use of such material needs Estate's approval. (edited to add: Frank Cascio also seems to be gifted some audio files and that makes him legal owner of the CD and he could sell it to a private collector - which he did. However Estate still maintains copyrights and control over commercial release).

I think it gets confusing sometimes due to the nature that these items have two aspects.

Exactly.

 

[Tygger]

I think you are giving way too much credit to that show. If it wasn't Motown 25 it would be Grammy Awards or some other awards show or performance or concert or tour. It was MJ's performance that mattered not the place.

Quite the opposite. You are diminishing it because you either are not aware of the historical value (which Is unfortunate for a MJ fan) or you are attempting to defend the Estate's mistake or both.

Remember, Michael won a historical 8 Grammys AFTER he moonwalked; not the other way around. Everytime Michael performed Billie Jean he moonwalked because of his appearance on Motown25. What did he do to commemorate his Grammy performances? He knew the value. See what he said in Moonwalk, his own words.

It would help if others who saw the show at that time could please speak to the significance of that night so this new spin that it can happen anywhere does not take root for any MJ fan.

 

[OnirMJ]

Quite the opposite. You are diminishing it because you either are not aware of the historical value (which Is unfortunate for a MJ fan) or you are attempting to defend the Estate's mistake or both.

Remember, Michael won a historical 8 Grammys AFTER he moonwalked; not the other way around. Everytime Michael performed Billie Jean he moonwalked because of his appearance on Motown25. What did he do to commemorate his Grammy performances? He knew the value. See what he said in Moonwalk, his own words.

It would help if others who saw the show at that time could please speak to the significance of that night so this new spin that it can happen anywhere does not take root for any MJ fan.

Yeah, that night, that performance - his performance, the moonwalk. It was MJ. It could have happened anywhere. Motown is just lucky that happened at their show. I'm not diminishing it at all. I'm praising MJ, obviously more than you do. I say he was so good that it could have happened anywhere and had the exact same impact on the world. That is how good he was!

 

[Birchey]

Of course he did! Why do you think he filmed several shows on film during Victory & Bad tours?? HIStory Tour with HD cameras?? Of course for its release one day. He wasn't stupid.

Michael said himself he felt the shows he did were for the audience it was his performance for them and he loved the almost 1 on 1 connection he had with the audience.

Victory Tour was to be released, The Jacksons were offered a multimillion dollar deal to have a concert filmed and released, Michael was the only one who said no, instead he had his own crew onstage filming primarily him. Joe Jackson later tried to get Kansas 84 released on Laser Disc, again Michael's lawyers put a halt to this, it been pretty much agreed upon that this is also the source of the Kansas 84 concert that is available online.

Bad Tour was shot on film for Documentaries only purpose.

HIStory tour was shot on experimental HD cameras and was to be released at Christmas in 1997.............MJ didn't allow the release as he was not happy with it.

Concerts were shown on TV in there retrospective countries but at the time they were relevant and whilst MJ was still touring. Nowhere have I ever read or heard of Michael recording a concert to release it in the future, and trust me I have spoken to dozens of people who worked with MJ, Nocturne, handled the films and those involved in the bad 25 release.

Also one thing is demos (LNFSG, This Is It...) and of course some of those songs weren't meant for release in that shape. Also there are songs like Hollywood Tonight that he wanted to release but he didn't finish them and recorded full or final vocals. BUT there are many songs that were professionally recorded for release - outtakes NOT demos, like majority of Xscape album, Hold My Hand, Another Day... I doubt he would re-record any of these vocals for potential future release (for example: Come Together recorded 1985, released 1995...). Again he was not stupid, he recorded them for release but at the time he had or better songs or songs that fitted the album better or time limit on the vinyl/CD.

Yes there are many completed or almost completed songs, which are being remixed by people who were either in diapers when they were recorded or who had nothing to do with the song pre-MJ's death, whilst people who actually did work with MJ and created this music with him are not even consulted by the Estate.

 

[Birchey]

just very shortly : there was a discussion about this plus the discussion about last photo shoots. Even though Brad might be the owner of the footage - aka the physical tape- Estate still has image and likeliness rights. Similarly there's a difference between private use and commercial use of a material. So even though Brad might own the footage, his public / commercial use of most probably require Estate's approval. Everything aside given all those video/audio files Brad uses includes MJ songs, at minimum Estate would definitely have a copyright claim on them.

The best example would be Jacksons Variety Show Master Tapes that Vaccaro had (and now sold). He acquired them legally through a bankruptcy sale so he was the legal owner of the physical copies and he could have played them privately. However Michael and his Estate still maintained Michael's copyright, image and likeliness and any commercial use of such material needs Estate's approval. (edited to add: Frank Cascio also seems to be gifted some audio files and that makes him legal owner of the CD and he could sell it to a private collector - which he did. However Estate still maintains copyrights and control over commercial release).

I think it gets confusing sometimes due to the nature that these items have two aspects.

I guess its a sticky situation, either way it would be easier for Brad to just drop it from his Seminar, we probably wont ever know the full details of it. On another note though I wish The Estate had been this protective when US Weekly posted the footage of the Pepsi commercial accident.

 

[barbee0715]

Quite the opposite. You are diminishing it because you either are not aware of the historical value (which Is unfortunate for a MJ fan) or you are attempting to defend the Estate's mistake or both.

Remember, Michael won a historical 8 Grammys AFTER he moonwalked; not the other way around. Everytime Michael performed Billie Jean he moonwalked because of his appearance on Motown25. What did he do to commemorate his Grammy performances? He knew the value. See what he said in Moonwalk, his own words.

It would help if others who saw the show at that time could please speak to the significance of that night so this new spin that it can happen anywhere does not take root for any MJ fan.

I was there, so I will try. Onir, I really appreciate your comment that Michael had it in him-and it could have happened in some other show, tour, whatever and maybe so.

But as they say "luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" and I think that is also when "Magic happens".

That night really did change everything-Motown itself changed so many things about America-race wise-for the first time these super catchy, sing along and GREAT songs were being played on white radio-where people couldn't help but belt along with them and dance to the songs because they were just that good.
I was a little kid, so I wasn't aware of white radio or black radio and stuff like that, but I knew I loved the Supremes from the Ed Sullivan show and one day I'll tell the story about discovering the rest of Motown and seeing the Jackson 5 on the "Hollywood Palace" when I was 13.

But remember, at that time, we were still more or less segregated with music-"Thriller" had been out for about 7 months or so and there were only about 2 million households out there with cable and MTV. Not a lot of people I knew even knew about "Thriller" yet. I didn't.

But the "Motown 25" special was something else-it was on NBC and FIFTY MILLION PEOPLE all gathered around their TVs to watch this historic reunion-in more or less real time-no cable, no VCRs back then-if we wanted to see the show we were there to see it-all at the same time. And I think so many people were watching because we were nostalgic for the past, even then. I was excited beyond words to see Smokey, and Diana, and the Temptations, and Michael and all of the Jacksons (who I always adored) and I could just go on and on.

And the show was just wonderful-the costumes, the dancing, the just amazing number of pure sheer talent on that stage-all with Motown and Berry in common. I was on an adrenalin high-I could barely contain myself-I had plopped right in front of the TV on the floor like I was a little kid and kept screaming at my mom to make sure she was watching every second. Even people I didn't realize I loved like Marvin Gaye, Lionel and Stevie, I loved that night.

And then Michael and the brothers came on, and I was beaming like a Cheshire cat-they were so great, they all looked great-they had become young adults behind my back and they harmonized beautifully-the close ups of Michael were heart stopping. I was crying and hollering with sheer happiness over how wonderful this whole show was.

And then suddenly, when I thought it was over, and I can't tell you how tense I was with this-he was all alone on the stage-he made a little speech like his old sweet self, and then turned to the camera-and his expression totally changed: he glared and stared out at us-and totally freaked me out. What was he doing? What was he going to do? Why was he looking so angry and intense and passionate-Oh, my gosh. Michael had NEVER EVER looked like that. My heart must have been going 200 beats a minute with just that look.

Then that bass line started and he slammed that fedora on his head and as I told somebody in another thread, I was electric shocked through the TV set.
It was the single greatest performance of ANYONE that I had ever seen-ever-and I've seen the greatest of the greats. I had my mothers hand in a death grip and almost broke her arm during the song.

Needless, to say I didn't sleep that night, and the next day at work, that was all anyone could talk about it-I stopped at the record store on my way home and snapped up both "Thriller" AND "Off the Wall." It absolutely changed everything-race relations went right out the window-whether people intended them to or not-nobody could stop talking about or listening to him. Nobody of any race, nobody of any gender, everybody from 2 to 82.

It was an absolute amazing moment of time-that he completely stole the show that was probably one of the best television events television ever.

For me, it's like it just happened last night-and I get a shivery thrill whenever I think of it-

 

[OnirMJ]

Michael said himself he felt the shows he did were for the audience it was his performance for them and he loved the almost 1 on 1 connection he had with the audience.

Victory Tour was to be released, The Jacksons were offered a multimillion dollar deal to have a concert filmed and released, Michael was the only one who said no, instead he had his own crew onstage filming primarily him. Joe Jackson later tried to get Kansas 84 released on Laser Disc, again Michael's lawyers put a halt to this, it been pretty much agreed upon that this is also the source of the Kansas 84 concert that is available online.

Bad Tour was shot on film for Documentaries only purpose.

HIStory tour was shot on experimental HD cameras and was to be released at Christmas in 1997.............MJ didn't allow the release as he was not happy with it.

Concerts were shown on TV in there retrospective countries but at the time they were relevant and whilst MJ was still touring. Nowhere have I ever read or heard of Michael recording a concert to release it in the future, and trust me I have spoken to dozens of people who worked with MJ, Nocturne, handled the films and those involved in the bad 25 release.

He would release it some day (not all of them of course). Or he would leave them to his Estate or children to release them (which he did). He would destroy them, not archive them if he didn't want them to ever be released.

 

[Birchey]

He would release it some day (not all of them of course). Or he would leave them to his Estate or children to release them (which he did). He would destroy them, not archive them if he didn't want them to ever be released.

I have lots of family photos, I don't put them all on display, they are keepsakes. Just because Michael kept VHS tapes and Umatic tapes of his shows (He didn't keep the Bad tour film reels and he actually had a lot of stuff missing from his archives) does not mean he would release them, sometimes people just keep stuff you know, like his Tour outfits etc. I don't think Michael expected to pass this young, we don't know what his full intentions were, but what we see whilst he was alive is he had decades to release this stuff (even in financial need) and did not.

 

[krikzil]

Hmm, well I can speak as someone who was actually AT the show. Yes, it was an amazing moment in an amazing show but you know, I couldn't help but wish he had been able to perform it truly LIVE, say on the Grammy's for example.

 

[ivy]

On another note though I wish The Estate had been this protective when US Weekly posted the footage of the Pepsi commercial accident.

This is an example of how this stuff gets confusing. I would imagine that footage is at control of Pepsi and not MJ or his Estate. After all Pepsi was paying Michael $5 million and in return they probably acquired from Michael all the rights to the footage and to use it however they want- aka full ownership of the footage and commercial release rights and Michael was paid for the use of his name,image and likeliness. So I don't think Estate has any claim over that footage. The only remaining thing would have been copyright on the song and if my memory isn't failing me US Weekly had removed the audio hence no possible copyright claim either.

Sometimes some things are just not legally possible.

edited to add: I just checked the timeline. Executors were appointed on July 14, 2009 and US Weekly released it on July 15, 2009. Even though there were any possible claims Estate can do (which I personally don't think there was any), the fact that they have just appointed would probably be another serious limitation.

Ps: and sorry for getting all boring legal.

 

[Birchey]

This is an example of how this stuff gets confusing. I would imagine that footage is at control of Pepsi and not MJ or his Estate. After all Pepsi was paying Michael $5 million and in return they probably acquired from Michael all the rights to the footage and to use it however they want- aka full ownership of the footage and commercial release rights and Michael was paid for the use of his name,image and likeliness. So I don't think Estate has any claim over that footage. The only remaining thing would have been copyright on the song and if my memory isn't failing me US Weekly had removed the audio hence no possible copyright claim either.

Sometimes some things are just not legally possible.

edited to add: I just checked the timeline. Executors were appointed on July 14, 2009 and US Weekly released it on July 15, 2009. Even though there were any possible claims Estate can do (which I personally don't think there was any), the fact that they have just appointed would probably be another serious limitation.

Ps: and sorry for getting all boring legal.

So it should have been Pepsi who sued but didn't, yet The Estate still did a deal with them for his likeness in 2012 I am joking of course, but its a shame nothing can be done about the vid.

I know how this stuff goes down, I have to sign release forms when I do photo shoots or films, in fact I didn't sign my release form for a film that's out next year and I am in a few of key scenes, maybe I should "re-negotiate" with the studio xD

 

[Tygger]

Barbee0715, thank you so much for your response!

OnirMJ, hopefully you will see how important Motown, performance was. Michael did not exist in a vacuum. He needed Motown and he needed his brothers and his father to be the artist he became. He was lucky to be signed to Motown; it is not the other way around. I have seen others say differently but that belief is nothing short of delusion and is based 100% on hindsight.

If anyone purchases this offering, watch Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder's performances. How fortunate we can now see these geniuses' preparing to release their magic; the effort that takes. I cannot wait! Of course it took years to see. It is being released where it belongs and in context.

We know on MJ forums many waited for the J5 reunion specifically and Michael stole the show with a solo no one in the audience predicted. If anyone can actually watch this offering and not feel disappointed that you cannot see J5 AND Michael's rehearsal after watching it, you are simply deluding yourself.

 

[barbee0715]

Hmm, well I can speak as someone who was actually AT the show. Yes, it was an amazing moment in an amazing show but you know, I couldn't help but wish he had been able to perform it truly LIVE, say on the Grammy's for example.

WOW. You were at the show? I was watching the audience too-and yes, I know it was to playback, but everyone there seemed as excited as me. Did anyone in the audience talk about that?

 

[SoCav]

Hmm, well I can speak as someone who was actually AT the show. Yes, it was an amazing moment in an amazing show but you know, I couldn't help but wish he had been able to perform it truly LIVE, say on the Grammy's for example.

Wow, that's amazing. In the house to see history being made. Would you be willing to share more about your experience at the event? Would be great to read.

 

[OnirMJ]

I have lots of family photos, I don't put them all on display, they are keepsakes. Just because Michael kept VHS tapes and Umatic tapes of his shows (He didn't keep the Bad tour film reels and he actually had a lot of stuff missing from his archives) does not mean he would release them, sometimes people just keep stuff you know, like his Tour outfits etc. I don't think Michael expected to pass this young, we don't know what his full intentions were, but what we see whilst he was alive is he had decades to release this stuff (even in financial need) and did not.

So you are against releasing concerts and tours on blu-ray/DVD's?

 

[XscapeTheLies]

Hmm, well I can speak as someone who was actually AT the show. Yes, it was an amazing moment in an amazing show but you know, I couldn't help but wish he had been able to perform it truly LIVE, say on the Grammy's for example.

And I am not at all jealous........ lol. What a moment that must have been for you. Even watching on vid for the first time, after having seen him do the Moonwalk a bunch of times already, I was still totally blown away. But to witness it in the fleash as it happened must have been something else!

 

[barbee0715]

Hmm, well I can speak as someone who was actually AT the show. Yes, it was an amazing moment in an amazing show but you know, I couldn't help but wish he had been able to perform it truly LIVE, say on the Grammy's for example.

I am absolutely dying to hear your story. A first hand account!!!!

 

[XscapeTheLies]

I am absolutely dying to hear your story. A first hand account!!!!

Seconded!

 

[Birchey]

So you are against releasing concerts and tours on blu-ray/DVD's?

You post something, get an answer, then side step 80% of those answers or in this case 100%

I am not against the release of Michael's concerts and never have I mentioned I am, I lobbied hard for the release of Bad Tour and was even played a small part in the release itself working "incognito". I am replying to your questions of whether MJ recorded shows to release them in the future, which I have said all evidence and testimony we have over the years show he didn't. If you want to come up with baseless answers and argument where you are again proven time and time to actually not know very much about, or are dueling with someone who clearly has more knowledge of the subject, its not worth entertaining and derailing this thread over.

 

[OnirMJ]

I am replying to your questions of whether MJ recorded shows to release them in the future, which I have said all evidence and testimony we have over the years show he didn't.

And I disagree with your opinion or your "evidence and testimony". I'm entitled to have my opinion, like you're entitled to have yours. And my opinion is that all performances, shows and concerts were filmed for possible release, then or in the future. He knew how much value those footage have and that is why he archived them. Not for himself to watch it in his private theatre for sure.

 

[Zakk]

People who worked on the tour confirmed that at least one 1988 show was shot on film, and Will Pecchi said that shows were filmed in 1987 as well as behind the scenes and on tour footage! i'm not saying you're lying Birchey but Dave Powell/Will Pecchi & Warren Eagles were working first hand.