Can we get Sony to tell us the current sales-figure?

Please everyone notice that Michael himself never said Thriller sold 104 million, so no, he did not lie either way. It was Guinness people and in their initial story they refer only to RIAA and IFPI, no Jackson's crew involved. Then, later, Guinness people changed their story and now assert it was Michael's people who came up with the figure.

And yes, IFPI only directly certifies European Union sales. Bigger scale, global certifications are not public given by them, but they do actual calculations from regional FPI's when they come with yearly results (that later come to World Music Awards, official IFPI partner; by the way, this is why Michael Jackson is artist of millenium for real -- not Elvis or whoever).

Troubleman84: MJJCharts is not authority in sales numbers, either. Actual sales come from Sony-BMG ME insider source; TSCM published those figures for this decade sales. Before him, the likes of Captain Eo Productions (France's company that published "Black and White" magazine) had direct sources at Epic Records and published actual sales figures.

Like four years ago I have made research on this matter:

Beatles, Presley, Jackson sales are heavily incorrect

First of all, peope should know that EMI executive said in 2001 (sorry, no link) that USA were about half of all Beatles catalogue sales. Lets do the math: USA's RIAA wholesales are: 168 million albums + 22 million singles = 190 million * 2 ~= 380 million. Even taking into consideration the developments of market in the last 10-20 years, when third country markets (after USA and UK) grew considerably, there is no way how sales figures could be about billion. More rational estimation of sales of Beatles are 400 million records worldwide.

Elvis' half billion worldwide estimation looks more reliable, at the first sight, but more than 2/3 of his sales are said to be domestic, and from the rest quantity considerable part is UK. He sold about 121 million albums in the USA (certified 116m and prior to RIAA's certifications 5m) and about 60 million singles. This means that globally Elvis sold like 300 million records (singles are like 100 million of that quantity).

Also, when we estimate market's volume in 50s-60s-70s, we should remember that prior to Jackson's "Thriller" album (1982) the highest worldwide seller was Beatles' "Sergent Pepper..." with 14 million copies (globally).
"Thriller" did 32 million to the 1984 and 40 million to the end of 1985 (Now "Thriller" sales are 59 million worldwide). Jackson sold 20 million copies of his album outside of USA.

Additionally, to see rational sales figures for Beatles and Elvis people should know that SoundScan counted for Beatles in the USA in 1991-2004 years about 19 million copies of all of their albums, and global sales for that period are estimated in quantity of about 50 million copies, including 27 million copies of Beatles' "#1s" album. Notice that without super promoted and successful #1s albums sales for 14 years would be about 23 million copies worldwide. This calculation is the answer for those people who worry that RIAA does not certify albums before 0,5 million copies sold, hence cumulative RIAA sales could not include many records that did not reach that volume of sales. SoundScan does not depend on this, it counts everything, each unit possible, and it showed that the volume of uncertified by RIAA albums can not be significant.

Well, this sales rate SoundScan showed makes Beatles/Elvis sales are no more than 15-30 million a decade. For comparison, Michael Jackson sells like 25-35 million a decade extrapolated -- if calculated on the basis of "silent years" (no promotion, no releases, no nothing: like 1990, 1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, et cetera, when Jackson's pace is about 2.5-3.5 million albums a year).

This means that there is technically no way how Beatles could sell billion records or Elvis sell half billion records worldwide. To answer Tony Galvin's doubts about how RIAA counts albums with different ID#s, I can say they add-up everything to one unit. Galvin estimates that domestic
cumulative sales of Elvis' albums are about 160 million, he adds 45 million to RIAA figure because there were a lot of albums that sold below 0.5 million copies, hence uncertified, as well as albums with different ID#s.
(Galvin's article: http://www.elvis.com.au/presley/500_million_elvis_fans_cant_be_wrong_or_can_they.shtml)
However, as I said above, all the facually same albums, though with different colours, covers, ID#s, et cetera, are always
united/grouped/counted as one. So RIAA's 116 million figure can be actually expanded to about than like 130 million for Elvis' USA album sales.

Estimation of US/World ratios that listed in the article this discussion created for is not applicable towards Michael Jackson. His USA sales are about 27% of global ones, he is the most international USA artist/group. In Iraq and China children did not knew who Bush or the Pope was, but they knew how to Moonwalk. 2200 journalists from 34 countries from five continents were covering Jackson's trial -- thrice bigger than any other act like OJ
Simpson or Scott Peterson or whoever else before in the world. In fact, this was huger or equal than any biggest international event ever happened in history. Jackson had the biggest international tour worldwide, visiting like, in his tours, 40 countries with up to 15 million tickets sold abroad.

In 2000s, Jackson sold about 25 million records worldwide, and only like 5 million of those sales were in the USA.

(In 1991, Jackson released album "Dangerous", which wholesold 14 million copies in 14 days, the records that was not beaten ever since. Guinness book is incorrect here again, claiming that sale of 13 million copies of Beatles' #1s is record).

Jackson's Epic Records (ER) worldwide solo albums wholesales are about 210 million (grows 3 million each year without new releases or promotion). For the USA market, RIAA certifies wholesales, and USA is 27% of world sales, and ratio is 3.7. Plus about 70 million ER solo singles ~= 285 million ER solo records. In 1990, Motown said they sold to that date about 30 million solo records of Michael Jackson. To this date, the quantity can be estimated
to be like 45 million. This makes about Jackson's sales about 330 million solo records worldwide.

In 1984 Motown said they sold 110 million records of "Jackson 5" group. In 1990, ER said they sold 30 million records of "The Jacksons" group. To this day, estimation gives that those two groups' cumulative sales are abuot 170 million records. Thus, there are about 500 million records with Jackson's voice and name, of which about 330 million are solo records.

That is why Jackson was the "Artist of Millennium" by World Music Awards, official IFPI partner (International Federation of the Phonographic Industry), in 2000, as well as the biggest selling artist of all time in 1996 and 1993. It was not Elvis Presley, Iglesias, Elton John or whoever else.


------------------------------


To answer my own question, yes, Michael Jackson is the biggest selling solo artist of all-time.

MICHAEL JACKSON
Solo Motown Albums: 20 Million
Solo Motown Singles: 14 Million
Solo Epic Albums: 230 Million
Solo Epic Singles: 70 Million
TOTAL = 330 Million

ELVIS PRESLEY
US Albums: 116.5 Million
US Singles: 50 Million
US Total: 166.5 Million

According to his offical website...
QUOTE
It is estimated that 60% of these sales have been in the United States and 40% in other countries.


So if 166.5 Million is 60% of his worldwide sales, than his worldwide sales must be approximately 280 Million.

Worldwide total = 280 Million

So, as you can see, Michael Jackson is the biggest selling solo artist of all-time. I'm pretty sure the Beatles might have the upper hand on him, but they aren't solo, they're a group.


Reading the wikipedia chart, it's also worth considering that if the figures were closer i.e. a tie, then MJ would win hands down as compared to Elvis' 150+ number of albums, MJ's is just across 14 releases which is quite incredible...


Sources for Jackson's current wholesales figure estimation*:
1) Motown Records press-releases, announcements, conferences for Jackson Five and Michael Jackson sales;
2) Epic Records/CBS Records press-releases, announcements, conferences for The Jackson's sales;
3) Epic Records/Sony Music Entertainment press-releases, announcements, conferences for Michael Jackson's sales;
4) Michael Jackson and Rodney Jerkins announcements;
5) SoundScan statistics for USA data;
6) RIAA certifications volume and timing statistics for USA data;
7) Internal source from ER/SME, published by Captain Eo Productions (such as single's sales).

For other mentioned sellers industry news media reports are used, and IFPI.

* -- sales are wholesale shipments
 
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:lol: Well if he did audited, I wished they could just settle this so this won't be confusing. People are gonna always believe what they hear because three or four parties are still not settled on the matter.

I'll tell you one thing, if the people at Guinness (besides the dude that insists he sold 104 million since he did get an award FOR THAT obviously) don't have that 104 million in THEIR book NEXT YEAR, hell is gonna pay for this. :lol:
 
Thanks for that, Denis. I've noticed MJ only said 104 million ONCE. Afterwards, he went back to the "I can't believe it's still the biggest-selling album ever" which it always is. And yeah I did question the sales numbers on MJJCharts.com so thanks for bringing that back up. And YES the Guinness people DID change their fact so I would think THEY were lying rather than the IFPI. And see MJ doing 330 million records worldwide, he's already OVER Elvis and the Beatles. Like I KNEW he was over them, but you know how some people are. And just because now everybody in the media is saying the 104 million number don't mean it's true. It still sold a monster million records REGARDLESS anyway. :lol: If that story about every other Epic studio album doing over 50 million was true, MIKE wouldn't have to worry about stories about tax problems and stupid-ass lawsuits, lol. "Thriller 25" sales will also account for the TOTAL number of "THRILLER" sales so either way you put it: 50, 60, 70, 80, what the frick ever, it's still selling! :lol:
 
Ya, Sony needs to do somethin' 'bout this....

I got sad news for you, they won't, lol. Their job was to confuse and inflitrate people and then when they get 'em, they take it away! :lol: They ain't fooling me, they're helping Mike with "Thriller" because Mike has supposedly got his masters and don't want ish to do with 'em. I commend them for their work on T25 but still they have been shady.
 
Did really Jackson even said "104" with his own mouth? If so, then I missed it; thanks for correction.

You are right: absolute sales numbers are not important when we have quite reliable information that Michael is #1 ever anyways both in total solo sales and single album.

However, I always said that Jackson still has one super-achievement in the future to gain: becoming absolutely the biggest selling act of all time (meaning solo or group), surpassing Beatles.

For that, Michael usually would have to release two very high profile projects, each generating like 50-60 million records. HIStory project did this with like 60 million records, becoming the most successful recording project in the history -- 18 million HIStory Begins, 18 million HIStory Continues, like 14 million of previous solo albums, 11 million singles -- figures for 1995-2000 period are given; for now, HB and HC albums wholesold 20 million each already.

However, since market of album sales seriously declined, it is hard for Michael to have that high profile projects. So projects can become smaller and he "has to" do more of them to surpass Beatles. I am not sure if he will want or even able to produce all those projects.

Also, there is no information that Jackson even cares about surpassing Beatles anyway. I care, but it is totally irrelevant. :lol:
 
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Yeah he said it at the WMA's. I saw it on one of my local networks. "To say that Thriller has sold 104 million records worldwide..." or something to that effect. MTV UK was even quoting him. But you notice he hasn't said it since? I'm sure if it was confirmed, he'd be bragging by now. He shut up after that for some odd reason.

Yeah, he just about topped the Beatles, it's not irrelevant to me. ;) A black kid from our country is up there with four guys from Liverpool. BIG ACCOMPLISHMENT... plus he owns their records. ;) In fact that's more important than worrying about whether or not THRILLER sold 100 trillion. :lol:
 
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By the way, please everyone notice that almost all sales figures I used in my posts are wholesale, not retail figures (which are distinctly less). Each high-profile album has 2-5 million difference between retail and wholesale figures.

However, it should be noted that retail figures have nothing to do with Michael's or Sony-BMG ME sales and profits because Jackson's records were never turned back to distributors and label -- contrary to most usual situation with new or formerly famous artists where manufacturer makes loads of copies of album or single and retails or distributor can not sell them to end point so huge rests go back.
 
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Poor performance of new and old acts is the reason why label scream that they do not want to give more money to artists in general. Losses are significant, they say this business is gamble.

However, with Michael this business was never gamble, therefore even highest in industry 25% from wholesales is too low. Jackson generated billions of revenue to Sony Music Entertainment and earned for them like huge volume of net profit. Even Invincible album was hugely profitable, despite "leaks" on marketing budget happened during Mottola's ruling at SME.

Why Michael has to pay for hundreds of unsuccessful acts that Epic Records handles every year? He has nothing to do with it and in the future Jackson could consider independent career or sharply improved contract.
 
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More detailed analysis of profitability of Michael's music sales came as part of "The role of Beatles catalogue in Michael Jackson's history" article:
...

Was Mr. Mottola's decision to cancel all the promotion of Mr. Jackson's album "Invincible" based on its speculated poor performance, in the first place?

Sales of album "Invincible" (2001) were 11 million copies wholesale and 8 million copies at retails. There is usual few millions proportional gap between wholesale and retail sales; for example, Mr. Jackson's album compilation "Number Ones", released after his arrest, was sold in quantity 6 million copies at retail and about 7.5 million copies wholesale. It should be pointed also that Epic Records/Sony Music Entertainment's (ER/SME) and Mr. Jackson's gross and net income depends only on wholesale, not on retail sales.

Those are quite big figures, especially concerning to the fact, that ER/SME released only one video/single with Michael Jackson's participation ("You Rock My World", with Chris Tucker and Marlon Brando; the song peaked number one for nearly two months in Europe, what made "Invincible" successful), and all the other planned seven videos and singles, such as "Speechless", "Unbreakable", "Break of Dawn", "Whatever Happens" (with Carlos Santana), "Privacy", "Threatened" and "The Lost Children", were never released because of cancellation by Mr. Mottola.

Wholesale, not retail price figures are accounted: ER/SME earned about $120 million of revenue directly from "Invincible", and about $80 million from sales of previous albums, and about $40 million of all video carries sold. That cumulatively made about $240 million, and thus release of "Invincible" was mentioned in quarterly financial report of Sony Corporation of Japan, issued by late January, 2002. Also, contrary to what tabloids were reporting, promotional expenses on "Invincible" were relatively moderate, no more than about $15 million (not $$25-50 million, as it was speculated), so ER/SME received serious profits from singer's sales in 2001 and 2002 years. By the way, production costs for the album were held by Mr. Jackson, he is executive producer of all of his albums under ER/SME contract.

Overall, in 2001-2004 years Mr. Jackson wholesold worldwide about 30 million copies of his all solo ER/SME albums, including 7.5 million of "Number Ones" (2003), 11 million of "Invincible" (2001), and about 11 million combined of "HIStory on Volume I" (2000; about 4 million worldwide), "Blood On The Dance Floor/HIStory In The Mix" (1997), "HIStory - Past, Present and Future - Book I: HIStory Begins" (1995), "HIStory - Past, Present and Future - Book I: HIStory Continues" (1995) [two albums were released in one boxed set], "Dangerous" (1991), "Bad" (1987), "Thriller" (1982), "Off The Wall" (1979). That generated cumulative wholesale revenue for ER/SME valued in about $400 million, including videos and singles, airplay fees.

According to International Federation of Phonographic Industry (IFPI, in USA it has local unit, RIAA), the average expenses of production, administrative and distribution per CD make it cost about $2 for a major label. This means that gross profits for 2001-2004 period, before taxes taken, from Mr. Jackson's sales, in terms of approximate estimation, were: $400 million (gross revenue) - $70 million (costs) - $15 million (marketing) = $315 million. Net profits, after taxes taken, were $315 million - 40% (approximate) = $189 million.

If to take into account multimillion advance payments, that are obligate by Mr. Jackson's contract, this changes little. Basically, even if to set marketing costs to be like that tabloid-fiction $50 million, then still ER/SME has feed its then-detrimental music business with profits from Mr. Jackson's sales, such as "Invincible" and all the other shipments that were sparkled by the album's release. "Invincible" peaked number one in at least 25 biggest markets of the world on all the inhabited continents.

Consequently, the decision to stop promotion of "Invincible" could not be based on advertisement surcharge expenses, poor sales, or bad content perspective.
...
 
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MJJCharts.com have MJ's total albums sales numbers around over 186 million (closing in on 200 million total).

Old info.. It says for example for Thriller that 59m that's been around way too many years. It's very likely Thriller had sold more already around 15 years ago or something!
Those people who "estimate" these figures don't understand how small amounts ALL OVER THE WORLD totals much much more than they think..
 
I got sad news for you, they won't, lol. Their job was to confuse and inflitrate people and then when they get 'em, they take it away! :lol: They ain't fooling me, they're helping Mike with "Thriller" because Mike has supposedly got his masters and don't want ish to do with 'em. I commend them for their work on T25 but still they have been shady.

Yes. True. Michael should do an ULTIMATE thriller with outtakes and all and put Sony to SHAME!
 
Yes. True. Michael should do an ULTIMATE thriller with outtakes and all and put Sony to SHAME!

I'm SAYING!!! :lol:

I mean, NOW I can understand why there were remixes, but I would think ONE DAY he put out a CD of outtakes from Thriller. ;)

I heard some of it on IMEEM a week ago. ;) Including demos of WBSS, Billie Jean and TGIM (though it's not the full demo that I thought it was, lol).
 
But that's the only time he said it. And the only time Guinness mentioned it.

Ever since, Guinness has went back on his word while Mike has not said that number since.

Big whoop. :lol:

It's still the biggest-selling album of all time, no ifs, ands or buts about it.
 
I'm SAYING!!! :lol:

I mean, NOW I can understand why there were remixes, but I would think ONE DAY he put out a CD of outtakes from Thriller. ;)

I heard some of it on IMEEM a week ago. ;) Including demos of WBSS, Billie Jean and TGIM (though it's not the full demo that I thought it was, lol).

Michael should actually put out a CD of ALL his outtakes ever....now THAT would put Sony to shame.
 
SOLOMONS: thanks; I already also thanked TroubleMan84 for his earlier correction.

As Michael said before, he is:
1) not into statistics overall;
2) he is bad with memorizing factual things (even not remembering how many songs in his album or whether come of his songs was on certain album or not).

So the degree of how much conscious Jackson was with this only time pronouncing those 104 million is questional; most probably he just quoted Guinness and that is it.

Taking all of this into consideration, this still can not be called actual lie (though formally lie is everything which is directly untrue; thus even Mother Theresa lied often when answered to "what time is is" type if questions).
 
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Exactly. I guess he felt that it was alright to say it but Guinness never put it in their books in either its 2007 or 2008 edition and only in the latter edition did they CHANGE it from "confirming" 104 million CLAIMING it got it from Sony/RIAA to saying MJ's people claim that number EVER SINCE. So SOMEBODY'S lying. I don't think it's Mike but I would believe Sony would make up that number, lol. If it was true, they have to pay Mike out of their back pockets.
 
But that's the only time he said it. And the only time Guinness mentioned it.

Ever since, Guinness has went back on his word while Mike has not said that number since.

Big whoop. :lol:

It's still the biggest-selling album of all time, no ifs, ands or buts about it.

I don't know if you bought the 2008 GWR edition or not, it is mentionned that according to Michael Jackson staff thriller has sold 104 million records but Guiness book estimates 55 million copies instead. that is "lol" ! GWR giving a 104 million certification at the WORLD MUSIC AWARD ceremony and then backing off? Come on mates, Sony got in the middle in the meantime.

Even the WORLD MUSIC AWARD announced Thriller having sold 104 million copies, not Beyonce, not Michael, not GWR but WMA itself, which is by the way an organization that based on IFPI countings....

Who's kidding who? SONY BIITCH
:punk:
 
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I don't know if you bought the 2008 GWR edition or not, it is mentionned that according to Michael Jackson staff thriller has sold 104 million records but Guiness book estimates 55 million copies instead. that is "lol" ! GWR giving a 104 million certification at the WORLD MUSIC AWARD ceremony and then backing off? Come on mates, Sony got in the middle in the meantime.

Even the WORLD MUSIC AWARD announced Thriller having sold 104 million copies, not Beyonce, not Michael, not GWR but WMA itself, which is by the way an organization that based on IFPI countings....

Who's kidding who? SONY BIITCH
:punk:

The WMAs were also the same ones claiming Mariah AND Celine sold over 150-200 million records worldwide. :lol:
 
^And can we believe it? sure....

(To the post where troubleman84 said The WMAs were also the same ones claiming Mariah AND Celine sold over 150-200 million records worldwide.)
 
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exactly.. and when Mike does tell us what he knows about his album sales ( 104 mil sold of Thriller for example)... many doubt it...

the man knows

that is very true. Mj says a lot of things..but people always end up deciding for themselves whether or not they believe it...
 
I honestly think Thriller is one of the only albums of his to constantly sell. That's why that story of his other albums doing 50 million is bogus. OK, I can see HOW "Thriller" will sell least 60-70, that's probable. I'm just having a hard time believing it all did over 50 million. Plus, MJ-Charts.com has the album sales of all albums at very respectably high numbers but nowhere near 100 million for "Thriller", 50 million for the others and no total amounting to 750 million unless MJ's management counted not only album and single sales but DVD and VHS sales too.

anything's possible...i keep hearing about fans who love to update their collections..and how they think thriller isn't the only album they respect...and they randomly go out and get other cds besides thriller through the years...me included.
 
I am amazed how quickly some of you are readily dismissing figures that Sony isn't even disputing. Not even the media who would have relished knocking the figres down are doing it. Why would sony stand by and allow such a claim if it wasn't true.Why would MJ make such a clain if it wasn't true? There are more people involved in making Thriller, not just MJ. If Thriller did not sell that many, they would know about it. Not one of them have come out and said not true. Could it be because they are getting paid accordingly? MJ works in the industry and he has the tools to check his figures, He knows how many records he sold. I believe him.

it's just possible that some people believe that certain figures in society can make more or less money that others...

i personally believe MJ has shot past the moon and back..

people will believe what they wanna believe..
 
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