Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

[Beachlover]

Thanks

however, we cannot say anything about Michael´s state prior to the moment he received propofol besides that he had benzo, correct?

I mean, we cannot tell by this strong (too strong) reaction to propofol that he might have been strongly influenced by benzo in the first place? Which could also mean that Michael was 1) unconscious and/or 2) already influenced to the point that administering even small amount of propofol could kill him?

No. We can not know that. I would venture to say enough time passed where he could have been awake.

We CAN say that the amount of Propofol found was the amount used for general anesthesia.

 

[daisy]

No. We can not know that. I would venture to say enough time passed where he could have been awake.

We CAN say that the amount of Propofol found was the amount used for general anesthesia.

Yes, but NOT together with the previous medications given to Michael?

 

[Beachlover]

Daisy, I am not sure what you are asking exactly.

 

[daisy]

Daisy, I am not sure what you are asking exactly.

I am asking if the amount of propofol found was normal amount used for general anesthesia
- independently of the previously used medicines
- or should the amount be adjusted to benzo taken before.

 

[xthunderx2]

From what the report has stated yes it seems that Michael died right after being given propofol. My theory is that Michael was gone when Murray got back and the delay in calling 911 and the phone calls were Murray panicking and trying to figure out what to do.

which is why we heard that the the fireplaces in the house were lit..in june....which is why the coronor cannot determine time of death....Murray tried to hide the fact that he gave the propofol....if they could determine TOD...I bet that would shoot Murray's time line all to hell,...he did alot of covering up

 

[elusive moonwalker]

is there a chance the D.A asked for the TOD etc to be witheld from the report

 

[SIDEWALK]

i pray to GOD that no one EVER gets their hands on the photos of our Michael dead

 

[xthunderx2]

is there a chance the D.A asked for the TOD etc to be witheld from the report

I was wondering the same thing because the report doesnt state that one could not established ...it just doesn't say at all....this is unusual for a coronor report..

 

[bgz]

is there a chance the D.A asked for the TOD etc to be witheld from the report

I've wondered that as well. Giving the time of death could/would give Murray and his lawyers something to work on, ie, rearranging their "defense", if that would be at all possible.

I'm not at all sure what the legalities are of removing/withholding tod in an autopsy report. Perhaps it WAS withheld from the autopsy report made public, because I would expect an estimated tod would be in that report.

 

[twinklEE]

i pray to GOD that no one EVER gets their hands on the photos of our Michael dead

Really hope he will be spared this last humiliation. But knowing the media people you never know. I hope they'll never be made public ever.. but judging how there are autopsy pics of John F. Kennedy available I kinda have the feeling that his won't remain in the dark for too long

 

[PrincessMichaela]

It worried me that there was no food in his tummy because that meant he hadn't eat in, what? 12 hours. :no: But then I remembered that whenever I'm being given anesthesia they always tell me not to eat 12 hours prior. (Plus, in order to work the fastest, the benzos are supposed to be taken on an empty stomach.) So,...if he wasn't supposed to eat for 12 hours before taking the Propofol...and he took the Propofol every night...then, basically,...he couldn't eat. (Except for maybe a light breakfast right after he woke up.) And judging by, not how much he weighed, but by how much weight he had lost, that's exactly what was happening. Right?

 

[xthunderx2]

also the cornor would surly be able to tell just by the lividity...also .....vitreous humor...the fluid in the eye..the corneas of the eyes become cloudy......also the coroner should be able to tell within a time table by what was left in the gastric contents of the stomach.....I know we have disgust this before here...I just dont get it...why one could not be established......it is not like it was days since somone seen MJ alive it was a matter of hours.

 

[Moulin Rouge]

From what the report has stated yes it seems that Michael died right after being given propofol. My theory is that Michael was gone when Murray got back and the delay in calling 911 and the phone calls were Murray panicking and trying to figure out what to do.

that's what i believe

 

[elusive moonwalker]

well that phonecall to his patient didnt have him panicing tbh im more inclined to think he gave it to him at around 10.30 and because he was on the phone he didnt even notice he had gone until 12.although the first phonecall was at 11.18 so i dunno.

 

[Limonali]

Ok. Propofol or Benzo death works like this. First, the breathing slows...gets slower.....slower. The blood isn't getting the oxygen it needs and the brain sends the message to the heart and the heart tries to compensate by beating faster to circulate the blood. The heart beats faster and faster as the body tries to receive the oxygen it needs.This doesn't take that long, minutes. The brain and the heart muscle don't receive oxygen.

Would you be able to explain to me why the brain sends that message to the heart instead of kicking off the breathing / waking the patient up? (sorry I know I'm sounding horribly unprofessional English isn't my first language). I hope you understand what I mean. If it could start up the breathing instead of having the heart run faster and faster, the surviving would be much more probable, wouldn't it? Just trying to understand the mechanism.

Yes, that IS what happened, but whether or not he found him a minute later or 10 I am not sure either. 10 minutes is too late. You can't reverse it by then and that is why I think there is no flumazenil in the blood.

Again, can you explain what flumazenil has to do with it?

From what the report has stated yes it seems that Michael died right after being given propofol. My theory is that Michael was gone when Murray got back and the delay in calling 911 and the phone calls were Murray panicking and trying to figure out what to do.

Well he couldn't know how much later he found him first. But yes then it was obviously too late. And I guess he noticed then soon.
I'm sure that's why he didn't even call 911 too soon.
To me he wasn't that much in panic. To me he needed the time to try to cover what he did (...).

What he was doing during that time is a bit of speculation, and could have been doing both (panicking, calling people, then trying to cover things up). But in general I agree with you both and it's been my feeling all along. He didn't leave him just for a minute. He left him for long enough RIGHT AFTER administering Propofol for him to die... sad and then spent TOO MUCH TIME on other things - that I hope investigation WILL show - before calling 911.

It worried me that there was no food in his tummy because that meant he hadn't eat in, what? 12 hours. :no: But then I remembered that whenever I'm being given anesthesia they always tell me not to eat 12 hours prior. (Plus, in order to work the fastest, the benzos are supposed to be taken on an empty stomach.) So,...if he wasn't supposed to eat for 12 hours before taking the Propofol...and he took the Propofol every night...then, basically,...he couldn't eat. (Except for maybe a light breakfast right after he woke up.) And judging by, not how much he weighed, but by how much weight he had lost, that's exactly what was happening. Right?

I think you might be right...

 

[Beachlover]

I am asking if the amount of propofol found was normal amount used for general anesthesia
- independently of the previously used medicines
- or should the amount be adjusted to benzo taken before.

According to an official at the coroners office they stated it was the amount of general anesthesia. We all know they also blamed benzos.

Parts of the report can be debated medically. (consultations)

 

[rainny]

Re: Coroners Report released

Did Cherilyn say she prescribed MJ azithromycin?

Not that I remember.

The prescription for 6 pills was issued on March 9th, and

there were still two pills left on June 25th.

Was MJ back from London on the 9th?

 

[ElleBella]

I keep questioning this. They said there was a catheter (sp?) so I'm assuming since he was under propofol he was hooked up to a catheter. Wouldn't that some how explain the pee? I had to have one when I had a C-section and the bag was changed after a few hours. Maybe he just poured it into a bottle instead of in a toilet? Who knows..but it would be a better explanation that Klein's peeing in a bottle thing.

I've not read the whole report, got through the first few pages and I felt guilty and disturbed.

One thing that has just really bugged me is TMZ-more tabloid-ishh from them. They've dragged that ridiculous Klein story again about MJ peeing. WTF? Well now they commented on the urine in the bottle found on the chair. They've clearly read the coroner's report but are now making fun of MJ again and have totally missed the point that Michael had an external catheter on that night and the urine would have come from that. Also, Michael had urinary retention from some kind of prostate issue according to the report.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Again, can you explain what flumazenil has to do with it?

flumazenil is a counter drug to the benzos it helps to reverse it. so u see you patient is struggling you give them this drug to reverse the effects. but because the drug was i think partly in the IV yet didnt show up in mjs blood etc is because mj was already gone when murray tried to inject it so it didnt go into mjs system

 

[Limonali]

Thanks Elusive.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

as MJ back from London on the 9th?

vbrep_register("2611340")

just. he left london on the 8th so got back on the 8th due to timezones

 

[Beachlover]

Would you be able to explain to me why the brain sends that message to the heart instead of kicking off the breathing / waking the patient up? (sorry I know I'm sounding horribly unprofessional English isn't my first language). I hope you understand what I mean. If it could start up the breathing instead of having the heart run faster and faster, the surviving would be much more probable, wouldn't it? Just trying to understand the mechanism.

Flumazenil is known to reverse the affects of Benzos. (not Propfol though) There was an empty vial there and apparently it was given but not on the list of drugs in his system according to blood tox tests.

The problem when you give something like Propofol or other Benzos is that the breathing slows down (also the heart) and once the brain gets the idea that it can't get oxygen would have released chemicals that speed up the heart. Now, how fast the heart could have been beating is another question because the Propofol does slow it down but they give this drug in ICU to patients with a mechanical airway with no problems. The dose mentioned was for general anesthesia.

 

[ElleBella]

Just a thought, it's too much of a coincidence to me that Klein brought this whole pee in a bottle to TMZ over a month ago. And they just happened to find a jar of pee at the crime scene?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

why would u need a catheter (sp?) do u lose the ability to control youeself under diprivan. even if u sleep for 8 hrs thats a normal time and alot of ppl sleep straight through without getting up to go in the night. or did mjs prostrate issues having him going alot

 

[Beachlover]

I keep questioning this. They said there was a catheter (sp?) so I'm assuming since he was under propofol he was hooked up to a catheter. Wouldn't that some how explain the pee? I had to have one when I had a C-section and the bag was changed after a few hours. Maybe he just poured it into a bottle instead of in a toilet? Who knows..but it would be a better explanation that Klein's peeing in a bottle thing.

They meant an IV catheter. He had an external urinary catheter which could have been put on in the hospital. I don't know.

 

[Beachlover]

why would u need a catheter (sp?) do u lose the ability to control youeself under diprivan. even if u sleep for 8 hrs thats a normal time and alot of ppl sleep straight through without getting up to go in the night. or did mjs prostrate issues having him going alot

I think the prostate issue was a problem. It looks to have been causing urinary retention (not being able to pee) due to the enlargement, Possibly causing frequent urination.

 

[ElleBella]

From
http://www.drugs.com/cg/foley-catheter-insertion.html
Why do you need it? You may need a catheter because of an infection, or a swollen prostate gland. You may need a catheter because of medicine you are taking. You may need a catheter because of a disease or an injury that is causing problems in your urinary tract.

why would u need a catheter (sp?) do u lose the ability to control youeself under diprivan. even if u sleep for 8 hrs thats a normal time and alot of ppl sleep straight through without getting up to go in the night. or did mjs prostrate issues having him going alot

 

[ElleBella]

They said there was no pulse when he got to the hospital, why would they put it on there?
QUOTE=Beachlover;2611377]They meant an IV catheter. He had an external urinary catheter which could have been put on in the hospital. I don't know.[/QUOTE]

 

[Beachlover]

They said there was no pulse when he got to the hospital, why would they put it on there?
QUOTE=Beachlover;2611377]They meant an IV catheter. He had an external urinary catheter which could have been put on in the hospital. I don't know.

[/QUOTE]

I stated I don't know because of all the external catheters I have seen never seem to stay on very long.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

thanks. poor mj he seemed to have issues with everything. never got a break