Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

[AllForMJ]

Thank you for the clarification about hydrolysis. The bolded part is what I initially thought as well. The exact same things were found in both the urine bladder and the urine in the bottle. So I guess the other issue is whether or not the urine in the bottle came from an earlier release that night/morning (via cathether?) or from a previous night...which somehow I doubt. It wouldn't be farfetched but IF the contents in the bottle came from a previous night, that would date the urine as being over 24 hours old. If one is to believe Murray, he hadn't given Michael propofol in over 24 hours (no propofol was allegedly used to put MJ to "sleep" on the night of June 23rd). So that propofol-benzo-ephedrine laced urine in the bottle had to have come from the night of the 24th-25th OR from the 22nd (which would have been more than 24 hours prior). It's possible, the bottled urine is what Murray took off of Michael when he "found him" not breathing and was cleaning up the scene. If I remember the autopsy report correctly, they only found the catheter on Michael, no bag was attached. Perhaps Murray emptied the contents of the bag into the bottle.


I think it was Soundmind who mentioned that Murray seems to be telling another Fat Fib about what he gave Michael in the days leading up to the 25th. The tox reports, thus far, do not support his statements.

Translation: We can't really rely on Murray's statements about squat. It's all about the tox reports and what THEY say. Looks like those tox reports are going to have to do the majority of the speaking for Michael and Murray about what really happened that night/morning. It's obvious the doc hid evidence (medical items found in other places) and withheld information on the scene (didn't tell paramedics about propofol). NOTHING that comes out of this ***********'s mouth is reliable. NOTHING. The more FACTS we find out, the more I'm convinced of this. He's full of it.

Hey, this might help us to determine approximately when the urine was produced.

Thinking back to the '03-'05 trial...the start of it...MJ kept having to go to the restroom because he was drinking bottled water. Remember that? From looking back at that moment in time, the water was going through MJ pretty quickly and holding it wasn't something that he was able to do very long. After a while, Judge Melville told MJ's defense team to tell MJ to cut back on drinking bottled water.

Now, let's come up to June 25th. Notice that there was orange juice in his room the day that he passed. It, from being a form of liquid, would probably do the same thing the bottled water did in '03.

And speaking of bottled water! One of the fans in this thread has a picture of MJ from "This Is It" in their siggy and guess what is on the table in the picture? Bottled water. I bet MJ was drinking bottled water during rehearsal on June 24th!
:yes:

Found the picture of MJ sitting at the table that has bottled water on it. Sloride is the fan that has the picture in their signature. Click on this link and scroll down to post #1124.

http://mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2624531#post2624531

Wouldn't be surprised of the urine was produced some time after MJ went to bed after getting home from rehearsal. I think I remember reading there was a plastic pad on the bed too. Does anyone else remember running across the part that mentions the pad?

AllForMJ, great post. I didn't quote all of it, as it's very long, but thanks for putting all the info together like this. :flowers:

You're welcome, wendy2004. And we can thank bouee for listing the times and dosage of what was given to MJ. As matter of fact, a big thank you should go out to everyone in this thread that is working together to piece this thing together.

When this whole thing plays out in court, we'll be able to fill in the blanks based on new info. By putting our heads together now, though, we can get a general idea of what happened to MJ. April is still a couple of months away.

 

[Soundmind]

After a while, Judge Melville told MJ's defense team to tell him to cut back on drinking bottled water.

No , he told them he would not allow MJ to go to the bathroom during the procedures and only during breaks he would be able to relieve himself . I hate Satanic Barbara and everyone that worked and still works in the legal system there

 

[ensleyave]

I am not a nurse or anything near that but did have to take care of a sick relative and at that time heparin don't know if spelling it correctly was used to flush the line. Could he be that much of an idiot. I really don't think so. A cardiologist knows about the heart inside an out. If I am wrong please let me know. He should know how to stop a heart and start it.

 

[AllForMJ]

No , he told them he would not allow MJ to go to the bathroom during the procedures and only during breaks he would be able to relieve himself . I hate Satanic Barbara and everyone that worked and still works in the legal system there

Here's an example of MJ interrupting court because he had to go to the restroom. He did it one other day as well. Judge Melville got annoyed the second time, and then set the restriction.

Excerpt from a New York Times article that mentions MJ had to go to the restroom during a 2004 court hearing.

Note: Per the article, this court hearing took approximately two hours.

_________________________

With the court's business nearly done, Mr. Geragos asked the judge to let Mr. Jackson leave the courtroom ''as a personal courtesy.''

The judge replied, ''I assume Mr. Jackson has to go to the bathroom. So do I.''

He added, ''I understand when you have to go you have to go,'' but then warned Mr. Geragos to tell his client to restrict his ''liquid intake'' before court.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/17/u...jackson-pleads-not-guilty.html?pagewanted=all

___________________________________

Here's another article that mentions it as well. It's posted right here on MJJC. This one was written by the Associated Press. After clicking on the link, scroll down to post #2083 and read the 7th paragraph.

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46&page=139

 

[Justthefacts]

And that is why Michael was so ill after the trial. After Mudville allowed Janut Arvizo leave the stand to go to the bathroom.

 

[AllForMJ]

And that is why Michael was so ill after the trial. After Mudville allowed Janut Arvizo leave the stand to go to the bathroom.

That, the horrible reason for being there, and Melville not providing much time to eat.

 

[AllForMJ]

While reading up on the use of Propofol, what I read also mentioned CNS depression. This is what I found after looking up CNS depression.
________________________________

Central nervous system depression or CNS depression refers to physiological depression of the central nervous system that can result in decreased rate of breathing, decreased heart rate, and loss of consciousness possibly leading to coma or death. CNS depression most often results from the use of depressant drugs such as alcohol, opioids, barbiturates, benzodiazepines, general anesthetics, and anticonvulsants such as valproate semisodium used to treat epilepsy. Drug overdose is most often caused by combining two or more depressant drugs although overdose is certainly possible by consuming a large dose of one depressant drug.

Symptoms of CNS depression vary according to the extent to which CNS function is reduced. Symptoms may include:

feeling sleepy and uncoordinated
staggering
blurred vision
impaired thinking
slurred speech
impaired perception of time and space
slowed reflexes and breathing, and
reduced sensitivity to pain
coma
death

CNS depression is treated within a hospital setting by maintaining breathing and circulation. Individuals with reduced breathing may be given supplemental oxygen while individuals who are not breathing can be ventilated with bag valve mask ventilation or by mechanical ventilation with a respirator. Sympathomimetic drugs may be used to attempt to stimulate cardiac output in order to maintain circulation. CNS Depression caused by certain drugs may respond to treatment with an antidote.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system_depression


Damn, Murray screwed up!! Either he did this mess by accident, or he did it on purpose. And something still seems very strange about the chain of events. Like, why did MJ have punctures on his ankles? What's the explanation for that?

 

[Arklove]

I am not a nurse or anything near that but did have to take care of a sick relative and at that time heparin don't know if spelling it correctly was used to flush the line. Could he be that much of an idiot. I really don't think so. A cardiologist knows about the heart inside an out. If I am wrong please let me know. He should know how to stop a heart and start it.

heparin is used in central lines, which is like an IV line, but instead, goes through your entire circulatory system via the superior vena cava of the heart....heparin is used to flush these lines so they don't clot....heparin is an anti-coagulant....and you're right, he's a cardiologist, he should know what he is doing...these are the basics....he's a dip shit is what he is...

 

[Soundmind]

Damn, Murray screwed up!! Either he did this mess by accident, or he did it on purpose. And something still seems very strange about the chain of events. Like, why did MJ have punctures on his ankles? What's the explanation for that?

very true, I found that very weird .

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Like, why did MJ have punctures on his ankles? What's the explanation for that?

well the iV was in his leg so maybe it was marks from other IV's?

 

[RedMaryFlint]

There is a 9 minute window in the phone conversation I think.

I put nothing past anyone regarding their stupid cell phones. I don't know who he was talking to and I don't doubt someone to say "Hold On" and put the phone down and go about their business and pick up the phone again. I seriously don't.

The other scenario is that he gave the drug and then didn't pay attention and all that time passed. Anything here is possible. I don't know.

If he paused during a phone call to make the injection, then the person on the other end would be able to verify the interruption and whether or not Michael's voice was audible in the background.

Yes, for those who aren't familiar or would like to know, in a patient who is in asystole, one would start CPR (chest compressions and rescue breaths). IV adrenaline is given asap. Then atropine. CPR is continued checking the rhythm every 2 mins. More adrenaline is given every 3-5 mins, with CPR continued in between. Asystole is not a shockable heart rhythm i.e. you don't deliver a shock using the defibrilator.

40 mins is quite long. In practise, the team usually stops after a few cycles if there isn't any response. But of course this depends on each case and in a young previously healthy patient like Michael, it is not unexpected that they would try harder and for longer. The team will stop when everyone agrees that they stop which is usually the call of the most senior doctor at the scene. As Popescu said, Murray was higher in rank and he insisted that they kept on with resuscitative efforts.

Would the EMTs likely remain on site to do this, or would they have normally bundled the patient into the ambulance and continued resuscitative efforts on the way to the hospital, particularly since in Murray they had a third trained person available? It seems like although ambulances come packed with emergency equipment, resources at the hospital would always be greater, especially if the hospital specialized in last-ditch resuscitative techniques.

 

[Cookie Monzter]

Would the EMTs likely remain on site to do this, or would they have normally bundled the patient into the ambulance and continued resuscitative efforts on the way to the hospital, particularly since in Murray they had a third trained person available? It seems like although ambulances come packed with emergency equipment, resources at the hospital would always be greater, especially if the hospital specialized in last-ditch resuscitative techniques.

You're right, I would have expected the paramedics to rush the patient to the hospital asap, continuing resuscitative efforst en route. I was surprised at this too. But we don't know what exactly happened at the scene when they arrived or what Murray may have told them to do.

 

[xthunderx2]

You're right, I would have expected the paramedics to rush the patient to the hospital asap, continuing resuscitative efforst en route. I was surprised at this too. But we don't know what exactly happened at the scene when they arrived or what Murray may have told them to do.

IMO...they didn't rush to the hospital because they knew Michael was already gone...we have all seen that video from that day..they were in NO hurry to get him to the hospital....they could not of left that driveway any slower if they tried.

 

[Soundmind]

the Chief of LA fire department told CNN Murray insisted they keep working on him AT THE SCENE and he determined IT WAS BEST FOR MJ . He delayed them intentionally for 43 minutes . UCLA was only 3 minutes away from MJ's house . He will have to explain why did he do that to the jurors .

 

[daisy]

OK so no matter when he claims he gave propofol he would have to explain THIS
edit: and a lot more.

No matter what he does, once he lied here, he would have to change the story there.

 

[xthunderx2]

the Chief of LA fire department told CNN Murray insisted they keep working on him AT THE SCENE and he determined IT WAS BEST FOR MJ . He delayed them intentionally for 43 minutes . UCLA was only 3 minutes away from MJ's house . He will have to explain why did he do that to the jurors .

exactly.!!!

 

[Beachlover]

He is going to explain basic ACLS protocols and what should have been done was being done. Once the ambulance arrived he had everything he needed. There are no other drugs at the hospital that he didn't have at his disposal once they arrived.

Now, as far as why it was delayed as long as it was, I can't even imagine what he will say about that. It was too much of a delay.

 

[xthunderx2]

He is going to explain basic ACLS protocols and what should have been done was being done. Once the ambulance arrived he had everything he needed. There are no other drugs at the hospital that he didn't have at his disposal once they arrived.

Now, as far as why it was delayed as long as it was, I can't even imagine what he will say about that. It was too much of a delay.

thanks for giving the defense team tips on how to cover there asses....you always seem to be able to.

 

[Beachlover]

thanks for giving the defense team tips on how to cover there asses....you always seem to be able to.

This is simple stuff to any medical professional. Do you think for one second they haven't already lined up several professionals to dispute half of the coroners report?

What I don't understand is the 40 minute time lapse here.

 

[wendy2004]

I have a question. I know some of you are either EMT or understand how this works. When the paramedics showed up and injected MJ with whatever is standard to try and restart the heart, etc... do you think any of that would have been different had they known Michael had propofol in his system? Other than the antidote to propofol, would there have been other protocols or things they would have followed or methods they would have tried (as far as resusitation) had they known Michael had propofol in him?

I'm just wondering if Murray withholding that information made much of a difference as far as what the paramedics would have done on the scene. Would they have taken other courses of action to revive Michael different from standard protocol during the "golden hour"? Did Murray HINDER rescue efforts by withholding this crucial bit of info?

Thoughts?

 

[xthunderx2]

This is simple stuff to any medical professional. Do you think for one second they haven't already lined up several professionals to dispute half of the coroners report?

What I don't understand is the 40 minute time lapse here.

Murray was the senior doc in charge hear as we know....he probably was hoping that the longer it took them to get to the hospital....the more time it gave Michael's body to get rid of the propofol....who knows what he was thinking...If he was thinking at all he never would of even attempted to use the benzo's and the propofol in the first place.

 

[xthunderx2]

I have a question. I know some of you are either EMT or understand how this works. When the paramedics showed up and injected MJ with whatever is standard to try and restart the heart, etc... do you think any of that would have been different had they known Michael had propofol in his system? Other than the antidote to propofol, would there have been other protocols or things they would have followed or methods they would have tried (as far as resusitation) had they known Michael had propofol in him?

I'm just wondering if Murray withholding that information made much of a difference as far as what the paramedics would have done on the scene. Would they have taken other courses of action to revive Michael different from standard protocol during the "golden hour"?

Thoughts?

THIS...is a excellent question..

 

[Beachlover]

The treatment whether they knew he had Propofol or not would have been the same. You treat the symptoms. They would have given the same medications either way.

 

[Soundmind]

This is simple stuff to any medical professional. Do you think for one second they haven't already lined up several professionals to dispute half of the coroners report?

What I don't understand is the 40 minute time lapse here.

I do understad why he did that , it was to confuse the coroner even more , another hour , more confusion and more room for argument .

Little did he know those little beads would expose him later .

 

[daisy]

But he would need to explain anyway insisting on staying at home and I am sure the prosecution is going to make a strong point here.

I do understad why he did that , it was to confuse the coroner even more , another hour , more confusion and more room for argument .

Little did he know those little beads would expose him later .

He must be really pissed because of that, GOOD.

 

[wendy2004]

The treatment whether they knew he had Propofol or not would have been the same. You treat the symptoms. They would have given the same medications either way.

But when treating the symptoms shouldn't they be aware of what is causing the symptoms? Isn't this one of the reasons they ask what meds a person may have in their system...for the sake of not causing a reaction that could be negative instead of positive?

Do you know what meds they would have or should have given Michael as far as resus? What are the possibilities that what they injected could have exacerbated the propofol effect instead of reverse it?

Reason I ask is becuz when my mom had a heart attack, she had taken her meds that morning and one was a blood thinner. She told the paramedics she had taken the blood thinning med earlier yet when she got to the hospital, they injected her with heparin to "help" the heart attack situation. As a result, my mom started bleeding from EVERY orifice of her body becuz her blood was running like water. They nearly KILLED her trying to HELP becuz some idiot didn't read the chart properly or DID read it and remained clueless about adding heparin to the veins of someone already on a blood thinner.

This is why I'm asking. Did Murray withholding the info about propofol make a difference in how the paramedics may have responded in any way.

 

[Soundmind]

The treatment whether they knew he had Propofol or not would have been the same. You treat the symptoms. They would have given the same medications either way.

If it was not for Murray MJ would have been transposed for UCLA immediatley and arrived 3 minutes before and pronounced dead at least an hour before . He will not be able to explain why he did that , but the prosecution will have a very logical explanation for why he did it . the hidden bag won't make him look good at all .

even Chernoff said they only came forward because they were worried he would be a suspect in a murder case .

 

[wendy2004]

I do understad why he did that , it was to confuse the coroner even more , another hour , more confusion and more room for argument .

Little did he know those little beads would expose him later .

You know, I think those were prayer beads. It would be divine intervention if they end up being the one thing that nails Murray's arse to the wall as far as time of death.

 

[Beachlover]

I do understad why he did that , it was to confuse the coroner even more , another hour , more confusion and more room for argument .

Little did he know those little beads would expose him later .

Well, I can sit here speculating on several different reasons for delaying the time to the hospital, but I don't know if I am right.

I don't know if he had the foresight to even think about confusing people later on. Maybe he did and maybe its just a theory.

Its easy for me, many months after the event to look back and think what Murray may have been thinking but I have been in Code Blue situations myself and I don't think the same while I am in the middle of it. So...I don't know what he was thinking.

 

[Beachlover]

But when treating the symptoms shouldn't they be aware of what is causing the symptoms? Isn't this one of the reasons they ask what meds a person may have in their system...for the sake of not causing a reaction that could be negative instead of positive?

Do you know what meds they would have or should have given Michael as far as resus? What are the possibilities that what they injected could have exacerbated the propofol effect instead of reverse it?

Reason I ask is becuz when my mom had a heart attack, she had taken her meds that morning and one was a blood thinner. She told the paramedics she had taken the blood thinning med earlier yet when she got to the hospital, they injected her with heparin to "help" the heart attack situation. As a result, my mom started bleeding from EVERY orifice of her body becuz her blood was running like water. They nearly KILLED her trying to HELP becuz some idiot didn't read the chart properly or DID read it and remained clueless about adding heparin to the veins of someone already on a blood thinner.

This is why I'm asking. Did Murray withholding the info about propofol make a difference in how the paramedics may have responded in any way.

There is nothing to give to reverse Propofol. The treatment for not breathing and asystole (flatline) are identical. So, no, in this instance Murray witholding information didn't hurt anything.

To be honest, if they did give those drugs and still got no response, I am thinking it would not have mattered if they drove him there in 2 minutes.