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Murray's manslaughter charge hangs on voicemail evidence

there are a few drugs that were not tested in different places
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im sure they tested for lorazepam in all relevant places: blood samples, liver, urine. lorazepam was ruled a contributing factor.

some substances are listed as ND in the lab reports, and some are omitted. i'm not sure what this means in the case of lorazepam and hospital blood. did they not detect it, or not test for it, or are they holding back what they found?

this is what the autopsy summary says on p12:

toxicology findings:

- propofol, lorazepam, midazolam, lidocaine, diazepam and nordiazepam, identified in blood samples
- propofol, midazolam, lidocaine and ephedrine identified in urine
- propofol and lidocaine identified in liver tissue
- propofol identifed in vitreous humor
- lidocaine and propofol identifed in stomach contents

so we can probably conclude lorazepam was not found in the liver and urine (even though the lab reports dont list it as ND), but it could still have been found in hospital blood and for some reason they didnt include the result in the published report.


if they indeed didnt test hospital blood for lorazepam, this is what i found on the subject of postmortem redistribution and lorazepam:

according to these source, the best place to get a "good" blood sample postmortem is femoral blood:

http://path.upmc.edu/cases/case407/dx.html

POSTMORTEM REDISTRIBUTION OF DRUGS:

Femoral blood is widely accepted as the most reliable postmortem specimen for drug analysis in forensic toxicology. There is considerable evidence that the drug concentrations in peripheral blood samples are closer to the antemortem level than the concentration in cardiac blood. In special cases where the diagnosis of overdose is to be used as judicial evidence, a single sample of blood may prove insufficient. In such cases, analyses of several samples of blood and tissue will increase the possibility of reaching a correct conclusion, but reference values on drug concentrations in tissues are often missing. The data suggests that there is a post-mortem diffusion of drugs along a concentration gradient, from sites of high concentration in solid organs, into the blood with resultant artefactual elevation of drug levels in blood. Highest drug levels were found in central vessels such as pulmonary artery and vein, and lowest levels were found in peripheral vessels such as subclavian and femoral veins.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2561112/

After death, and in the most favourable circumstances, it is possible to take samples of whole blood flowing from femoral veins: this sample is thought to be least susceptible to post-mortem change.
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i also read lorazepam is a drug which does NOT redistribute after death:

http://books.google.ch/books?id=Bfd...q=lorazepam postmortem redistribution&f=false

NECROKINETICS

Table 1, Toxins and drugs in which postmortem redistribution does not occur

...
Lorazepam
...
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There was Flumazenil given and if I am not mistaken, it binds to the benzos and changes their concentration in the blood
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i looked it up, flumazenil doesnt change the blood concentration of benzodiazepines, and benzodiazepines do not change the concentration of flumazenil. it binds to the same rezeptor in the brain as benzos do (gaba rezeptor), thats how the benzo effect is reversed. kinetics of flumazenil and benzos do not interact:

http://ppcdrugs.com/en/products/product_inserts/EN_WebInsert_Flumazenil.pdf

DRUG INTERACTIONS

Flumazenil blocks the central effects of benzodiazepines by competitive interaction at the receptor level; the effects of non-benzodiazepines which act via the benzodiazepine receptor, such as zopiclone, triazolopyridazines and others, are also blocked. However, flumazenil does not reverse the effects of drugs that do not act via this route. The pharmacokinetics of flumazenil are unaltered in the presence of benzodiazepines, and similarly, flumazenil does not affect the kinetics of benzodiazepines.
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Can someone direct me to a accurate timeline,please?

Edit: I guess I'll referre to The Facts Only Thread then.
 
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In the voice mail Murray says..".I would like to tell you that you did well on the EECP study.".....This is what a EECP is.....

This inflation/deflation cycle occurs about 60 to 80 times per minute during an EECP session. Sessions last approximately 1 to 2 hours and are scheduled once a day. A full course of EECP treatment lasts 7 weeks, with about 35 hours of treatment time.

http://www.hearthealthywomen.org/index.php?view=article&id=147&Itemid=1&option=com_content

So why would Murray need to tell him that he did well on this study...if it is a long term process treatment....hmm....this phone call is suspicious.
 
xthunderx2 said:
In the voice mail Murray says..".I would like to tell you that you did well on the EECP study.".....This is what a EECP is.....

This inflation/deflation cycle occurs about 60 to 80 times per minute during an EECP session. Sessions last approximately 1 to 2 hours and are scheduled once a day. A full course of EECP treatment lasts 7 weeks, with about 35 hours of treatment time.

http://www.hearthealthywomen.org/index.php?view=article&id=147&Itemid=1&option=com_content

So why would Murray need to tell him that he did well on this study...if it is a long term process treatment....hmm....this phone call is suspicious.
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Of course it is suspicious! everything murray has said/done is.
 
xthunderx2 said:
In the voice mail Murray says..".I would like to tell you that you did well on the EECP study.".....This is what a EECP is.....

This inflation/deflation cycle occurs about 60 to 80 times per minute during an EECP session. Sessions last approximately 1 to 2 hours and are scheduled once a day. A full course of EECP treatment lasts 7 weeks, with about 35 hours of treatment time.

http://www.hearthealthywomen.org/index.php?view=article&id=147&Itemid=1&option=com_content

So why would Murray need to tell him that he did well on this study...if it is a long term process treatment....hmm....this phone call is suspicious.
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Thanks for the info. Yes it does seem odd. Everything that happened seems odd.
 
Soundmind said:
oh really !!! and where were the allergy/breathing pills ? They collected pills bottles dated as far back as july 2008 and many were empty , but they did not find the ephedrine pills !!!!!

the ephedrine was detected in his urine only , why did not you say the aspirin and caffeine left the body faster than ephedrine ? VERY MUCH POSSIBLE .
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I agree with you on this.
 
Sophie, thank you very much.

If we assume that they tested for lorazepam in all of those instance and it was not found in the liver and in hospital blood, can we estimate the time when Michael was given lorazepam?
 
daisy said:
Sophie, thank you very much.

If we assume that they tested for lorazepam in all of those instance and it was not found in the liver and in hospital blood, can we estimate the time when Michael was given lorazepam?
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Good point Daisy- an estimation of the time of administration of lorazepam could be useful to see if Murray is telling the truth about this, and hence his whole story. Also, working the other way, assuming Murray's time and dose of administration of lorazepam is correct then, perhaps the TOD can be determined.

I wish I could remember more about how to work this out, but I think what information is needed is the max plasma concentration the IV dose of 2mg would give and the plasma half life.

http://www.drugs.com/pro/ativan.html states that:

"A 4-mg IV dose provides an initial concentration of approximately 70 ng/mL."


Assuming there is a linear relationship between plasma concentration and dose, a 2mg dose would give a plasma concentration of 35ng/ml.

I'm not sure of the plasma half life, wikipedia states that the half life is it is 10-20 hours, but not sure if that is the plasma half life or a different kind of half life. If it is 10 hours + then the plasma level would be 17.5ng/ml after 10 hours, so this doesn't seem right to me.....IDK but maybe more parameters / a different equation is needed to work this out.

I hope the DA gets professional toxicologists to work this out as it is important.
 
dont know whats gone on but i see a heck of alot of bannings its a shame cause theres a lot of inteligent posters who now arent here. and that will damage the board interms of researching discussing the case as much as any fighting that went on damaged it.
 
thanks daisydaisy, :D

I also hope they would figure this out.

I was to ask Soundmind, but...:unsure:
 
elusive moonwalker said:
dont know whats gone on but i see a heck of alot of bannings its a shame cause theres a lot of inteligent posters who now arent here. and that will damage the board interms of researching discussing the case as much as any fighting that went on damaged it.
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I have to agree with this...it's a shame to see all this banning.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
dont know whats gone on but i see a heck of alot of bannings its a shame cause theres a lot of inteligent posters who now arent here. and that will damage the board interms of researching discussing the case as much as any fighting that went on damaged it.
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I was shocked to see this right now too, I agree we need people like Soundmind for the research, anyway I still respect the admins/mods decisions.
 
bowen9999 said:
Well, I'm quite glad some of them have been banned! No doubt they'll be back in a week anyway.
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do people get banned forever, or temporarily?

And I don't think it's a shame to see any banning.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
dont know whats gone on but i see a heck of alot of bannings its a shame cause theres a lot of inteligent posters who now arent here. and that will damage the board interms of researching discussing the case as much as any fighting that went on damaged it.
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Didn't sign in for two days and I'm so confused too.
 
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