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Prelim Hearing-4/1/11 Discussion Thread-All discussion here

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
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what the actual f***?!

MJ's security guard alleges Conrad Murray didn't know CPR

The testimony is evidence that the doctor could be at fault for Michael's death.
Wednesday, January 5, 2011


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Michael Jackson's former security chief has alleged the star's doctor Conrad Murray panicked when he realised the superstar was seriously ill on the day of his death, because he "didn't know CPR."


The star's former head of security, Faheem Muhammad, took the stand at a court in Los Angeles yesterday to testify at Murray's preliminary hearing. The medic has pleaded not guilty to a charge of involuntary manslaughter relating to Jackson's death in 2009 and a number of witnesses have been called to testify as officials determine whether there is enough evidence to take the case to trial.



Muhammad was asked to appear in court and he recalled the tragic events of June 25, 2009, when Jackson was found unresponsive at his home.



The security chief alleges he and another guard, Alberto Alvarez, saw Murray crouched next to Jackson's bed "in a panicked state asking, 'Does anyone know CPR?'"
He adds, "I looked at Alberto because we knew Dr. Murray was a heart surgeon, so we were shocked."



When defence lawyer Ed Chernoff asked whether Murray was only asking for help because he was tired, Muhammed replied, "The way that he asked it is as if he didn't know CPR."



Officials ruled Jackson suffered a cardiac arrest following an overdose of anaesthetic Propofol, while Murray denies administering the lethal dose.

http://www.power107.net/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104655&article=8005694
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I read that blog, I pray PRAY this is not how the prosecution are going to argue their case. Why did he say Murray was giving MJ propofol six days a week for two damn months ACCORDING TO DR.MURRAY'S statement? where are the results for the hair samples? Did they ruin it for themselves when they waited two months to obtain the hair samples and have to "agree" and give credibility to Murray's statements cus they don't want to be questioned by the defense on that issue? He gave valium at ..., he gave lorazepam at ..... ACCORDING to Murray himself WHY ? Don't tell me what Murray said, tell me what the medical results say. If Murray did not give you that statement on June 27, how could you have presented your case? WHERE ARE THE FACTS? This is not a he said/she said case. This is a case where every word can be verified by a medical evidence.

The only thing the prosecutor promised would be backed up by a medical evidence was the fact MJ died before paramedics arrived.
 
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I pray PRAY this is not how the prosecution are going to argue their case. Why did he say Murray was giving MJ propofol six days a week for two damn months ACCORDING TO DR.MURRAY'S statement?
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the pros is saying this is according to murray. which to me means they will come back during the actual trial and say no murrays lied this is what the evidence shows. they arent agreeing to what murray said just stating this is murrays claim. murray only bought the diprivan in mid may so hows he giving it for two months? we arent aware of other warrants showing more was bought earlier and u mustneed alot to put someone under 6 days a week for 2 month for 8hrs a day. we know dam well thats B.S or mj would have been gone 2 months earlier. the pros dont have to show all their cards in the prelim.its not like this is their entire case. they only show enough to get it sent to trial

what concerns me is the seemingly speculative nature of the prosecutions case interms of when the dip was given and what happened. they are saying it was given between 10.40 and 11.00 (approx murrays first timeline) so if its given at 11 theres 15 minutes b4 the phonecalls start but nearly an hour if u go with the 1040 timeline. mj passed within minutes of the bolus being given. so what happened b4 11.15? interms of murray not noticing mj was in trouble. imo he didnt notice ti ll 12 cause he was on the phone non stop. but if u go with a timeline of anything pretty much b4 11am whats the reason for murray not noticing mj.if its correct that he passed within minutes of the injection? of course the pros case is much more believable and logical than the defence
 
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the blog posted by a member at a previous page. What Alvarez has to do with anything I said?
 
bouee said:
Could you please explain ?? I don't really understand. Reasonable doubt about what ?

Do you mean that if they can't prove Murray did that fatal injection , then they can't prove Murray killed MJ, the he can't be proven guilty of homicide ???

You see that's the point I don't understand, I'll try to explain it simply (not easy, especially for me !)

Based on the coroner's report : cause of death : acute propofol intoxication + benzodiazepine effects.
The coroner says it's a homicide, based on 2 things : the circumstances do not support self administration , the standard of care for administering propofol was not met (lack of monitoring and ressucitation equipment).

In the anaethsiologist report, she datailed what I wrote above. When she spoke about the amount found in MJ's body, after his death, she said it was similar to the amount you would find in someone undergoing abdominal surgery. She did NOT speak of a LETHAL amount, if I remember correctly. I don't think I ever read anything in the official docs about a LETHAL dose.

Now I understand from other posters that it's difficult to go back to the dose that was actually given.

So, what if there was NO lethal dose ???

In other words, and this is absolutely horrible, and this is how I understood it at the time the coroner report came out, what if MJ had died of common side effects of propofol, made worse by the use of lozarepam (admittedly given by Murray), but that should not have had such consequences if propofol had been used correctly ?

Let's say, OK, MJ self injected. If Murray had had and used the proper equipment, he would have been warned immediately, and could have reacted quickly enough. And he would have been there, so there would have been no self injection at all. (I really don't believe that there was, anyway, this is pure theory)

Now, this is how I see it, but sometimes legal stuff and myself are not friends.

And if the prosecution can prove that Murray actually did that last injection, as Soundmind says, then that's great, that will definetely shut Murray's defense.
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it is not really if the prosecution cant prove something, it is if the defense can create reasonable doubt about the evidence the prosecution has against muarry. so even if you have all of this evidence, if the defense can poke a hole in the prosecutions theory of what happened and a juror buys into it, muarry is acquitted. its kinda hard to understand and explain
 
Soundmind said:
I read that blog, I pray PRAY this is not how the prosecution are going to argue their case. Why did he say Murray was giving MJ propofol six days a week for two damn months ACCORDING TO DR.MURRAY'S statement? where are the results for the hair samples? Did they ruin it for themselves when they waited two months to obtain the hair samples and have to "agree" and give credibility to Murray's statements cus they don't want to be questioned by the defense on that issue? He gave valium at ..., he gave lorazepam at ..... ACCORDING to Murray himself WHY ? Don't tell me what Murray said, tell me what the medical results say. If Murray did not give you that statement on June 27, how could you have presented your case? WHERE ARE THE FACTS? This is not a he said/she said case. This is a case where every word can be verified by a medical evidence.

The only thing the prosecutor promised would be backed up by a medical evidence was the fact MJ died before paramedics arrived.
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you are not gonna be able to tell if propofol was in the system from hair samples because it leaves the system as soon as it enters. so the only word we really have on that is muarrys. everything in the case isnt going to be pure medical evidence, thats almost impossible.
 
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not true, if he was given propofol for two months it would have been detected in his hair. There are many cases on the internet talking about propofol in hair samples to determine chronic use.
 
Ingelief said:
@soundmind which blog you are referring too??
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I think it's this blog : http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-1-part-1.html

by the way, I read the comments below the blog post. Someone saying that he's an anesthesist, says that if the paramedics say that the body felt cool to the touch at 12 25 , then, according to this person , it means that MJ had died a few HOURS before.
Basically he says that Murray was so incompetent that he didn't even realise his patient had died, and continued to give him propofol.

I would not have paid attention to this, because this person is obviously not well informed, and has not nice comments about MJ, but what struck me is if the paramedics say the body felt cool. They are used to these situations.

what do you think of that ?
 
Soundmind said:
not true, if he was given propofol for two months it would have been detected in his hair. There are many cases on the internet talking about propofol in hair samples to determine chronic use.
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okay, then they probably have tested his hair but they may not bring that evidence in until later
 
chanel05 said:
not true... if the defense can create doubt in one juror then they have to acquit. if they all agree then muarry is convicted(well they all can agree if he is guilty, or if he is not guilty). but the main thing is, if 11 jurors say he is guilty and 1 juror says no, he is acquitted.
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I thought they had to ALL agree on guilty or not guilty.
If they don't, even if only one juror disagrees with the 11 others, then that's a hung jury, and you have to organise a second trial, until they all agree on a verdict.
 
bouee the prosecution are sayong Murray was giving MJ propofol while he was on the damned phone, don't please forget the perimortem abraisons.
 
bouee said:
I thought they had to ALL agree on guilty or not guilty.
If they don't, even if only one juror disagrees with the 11 others, then that's a hung jury, and you have to organise a second trial, until they all agree on a verdict.
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true... i just changed it... they still need to create reasonable doubt in one jurors mind for the jury to be hung.. but hopefully he will be found GUILTY
 
Soundmind said:
bouee the prosecution are sayong Murray was giving MJ propofol while he was on the damned phone, don't please forget the perimortem abraisons.
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u got an article with a quote about this cause all the reports ive read state it was between 10.40 and 11.00
 
most of the defence witnesses are there. well at least she might learn what diprivan is
 
well after my father seen this on the news he said "only 4 years for murder if he did it" i think he did it and i do not thing Michael killed himself! and neither does my dad who is not really an mj fan at all.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
most of the defence witnesses are there. well at least she might learn what diprivan is
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no defense witness are gonna be at the prelim, only prosecution witnesses.
she knows what propofol is

StacyJ said:
I see her being called as a defense witness. If she listens I guess she will see that her brother was killed by his doctor and didn't die of painkillers.
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i dont think she will be called as a defense witnesses and she know he didnt die of painkillers. she said that muarry is responsible because he is the one who administered the drugs.
 
Big Apple2 said:
Good one elusive!

Maybe this afternoon will feature some MEDICAL EXPERTS who can continue that education by describing the shape Michael's internal organs were in.
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yeah maybe and then she can apologize to Michael
 
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no defense witness are gonna be at the prelim, only prosecution witnesses.
she knows what propofol is
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sorry i though janet randy rebbie and katherine were there
 
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