Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

[marebear]

During testimony she said all that!

Good for her! I am sorry but you know she has sat in that court for 2 days listening how nobody helped her son. Listening how Murray made one fatal mistake after another. She couldn't take it anymore.

 

[TheChosenOne]

What do u mean "that conrad did not give teh fatal dose"??

Of course he did, he was the only person in the room!

She was expanding on the post that she quoted (sorry, assuming it is a female). She was not saying that she thought Murray did not give the fatal dose.

 

[Ramona122003]

I've been hinting many times before about why TMZ is allowed to have their articles posted in other threads other than the tabloid section but apparently some people think they're not like other tabloids. TMZ BELONGS IN TABLOID section period.

Every single articles listed in the no-discussion thread reported the paramedic exact response and nothing was said about blue feet being signed of drug addiction:doh:

Also the ephedrine listed in the coroner's report was given by the medics? Ok, I was wondering where it came from.

One more thing that puzzles me is chef Kai said MJ ate a meal of Ahi tuna before leaving for rehearsal but didn't eat his late night meal/soup she'd left in the fridge.

I know in TII we see Michael pick at some food and we heard that Kenny was cutting up his chicken?? don't know if it's true or if on that same day.

My point is that it really doesn't look like enough food for someone preparing/dancing/spending all that energy. So the fact that Murray was supposed to care for Michael's health shouldn't that include making sure he eats enough to be able to sustain his strenght and absord those meds? Shouldn't he have made sure MJ eats his meal when he came home that night?

It seems to me that Murray wasn't going by their usual routine that night even before the awful tragedy happened and he lost all judgement. Too many things are puzzling about him.:scratch::scratch:

In all fairness, you can't anyone eat. Even if Murry told Michael to eat more, it is on Michael to actually do it. He had never been a big eater and I doubt people like Kai, Kenny, or Murray could force him to change his ways. From what I've read, Michael was much worst in the 80s and he nearly killed himself with his diet by the end of the Victory Tour and he wasn't happy about being force to eat during the Bad Tour. Words from his mother's book.

Also, it recommended you don't eat before you take the drugs Michael was given that night.

 

[8701girl]

She was expanding on the post that she quoted (sorry, assuming it is a female). She was not saying that she thought Murray did not give the fatal dose.

Oh ok thanx

 

[chanel05]

What do u mean "that conrad did not give teh fatal dose"??

Of course he did, he was the only person in the room!

he/she was just stating the defense strategy

 

[8701girl]

he/she was just stating the defense strategy

Meh their strategy is pathetic

 

[wendy2004]

Thanks to ivy and anyone else for providing the updates/news articles. I was able to read and keep up for a bit at work and some of what I've read today was so hard to wrap my head around it's taken a while for me to get some thoughts together and post.

Murray NEVER having performed mouth to mouth before literally made me gasp out loud. I STILL cannot believe that. Not only becuz he was clueless performing it on Michael, but like others stated, that -as a doctor- he more than likely would have never done it for someone else. WHAT kind of "doctor" is this??!!! HOW does he still have a license???!! My God!

Then it hit me that if he had NEVER done mouth-to-mouth on anyone before and he only started it on Michael in Alvarez's presence, then that means when Alvarez walked into the room and saw Michael's mouth open, the open mouth was NOT the result of Murray performing it prior, like some of us considered. That was the most harmless and reasonable guess to explain the open mouth and now that seems to be off the list of possibilities.

I have just seen a report on skynews, and they said the same thing "a vial, with a milky residue in it, inside an IV bag"

Murray was trying to keep the floor clean avoiding a leak from the vial ???

I think it was as stated before for the vial to not get contaminated.

So there was no missing second IV bag. What size was that vial? did they ask him that?

Did Alvarez say that VIAL was hooked to something or just hanging there? if it was just there with no attachment to any tubing, Chernoff can't claim MJ increased the IV drip and overdose himself. Back to syringe and bolus injections.

I think contamination prevention sounds like a reasonable option and also since propofol burns/stings, it may have been inside the bag to keep it from coming into contact with anyone's skin should it leak somehow on the floor.

can i ask about if the scene we are now hearing about, him with a hairthing on, on ivs and catheter etc you know.. i was wondering murray told that he gave michael two months propofol? nomather how long but would the scene also be like this another night?

because the children could come in right? i know when i was little a always went to my parents room.. little as in blanket

In an interview, LaToya "said" Paris told her that they (the kids) were not allowed upstairs or in the room (not sure if it was MJ's room or the other room) while Michael was "getting his oxygen" from Dr. Murray. This may explain why Paris felt her father was being worked to death (IF she's ever said such a thing). How could she not think this (IF she does) when a doctor is in her house giving her father "oxygen" overnight. Of course, we now know something more dangerous was being administered in addition to oxygen. At least Kai Chase previously mentioned Murray hauling oxygen tanks downstairs most mornings before breakfast...so oxygen WAS getting used.

Haven't been on here or in this section for months, but has any of the medically knowledgeable folks on here discussed possible correlation between propofol and daily oxygen? Or could the oxygen have been a totally separate and harmless treatment for added energy, fitness, better breathing, etc.?

On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.

That's not true! Erin on utream said that Senneff said how can I even answer that? He didn't know where the pros was going with that! And the judge cut off off right there! He never answered yes to that question!

Chernoff making him say the black and blue feet is the sign of an addict is outrageous. Considering the guy testified that when they entered the room his blue and black hands/feet were a sign that he was already gone beyond resuscitation.

Guys, do not hate on Chernoff. He's slimey but he's your unintentional friend here. Trust. I've not seen a more perfect match of attorney/client in the "not too bright" dept. than Chern. and Murr. It's almost criminal that one has a license to practice medicine and the other has a license to practice law.

They will try and throw whatever they can to the wall to see what sticks. It's going to be ugly, but if Chernoff isn't careful he could end up putting his client in worse position than he's already in. The police did not find evidence of MJ being an addict, hence the charge of administering to one was not lodged against Murray. It's not too late to add charges.

Interesting about Ms. Katherine being upset with ppl referring to Michael as an addict. *confused x 10*

 

[chanel05]

Michael's feet were not that color because he was a drug addict. His feet were that color because he was dying.

My uncle passed away in September of the very same year that MJ died. My family and I were at my uncle's bed side daily. We took turn as we waited for my uncle to pass over. He was elderly.

I learned from being with my uncle that a person's feet get cold first as they are dying and then the coldness works its way up.

This info that I pulled from a website about the signs of dying will explain it to you guys. Chernoff was grasping at straws. He should have done some research before trying to pull that sh*t.

*******************

As the heart becomes weaker, circulation fails to adequately reach the hands and feet and they will become cool to touch and the nails maybe bluish, while the arms and legs maybe pale, grey, mottled or purplish.

*******************

To read more, click on this link and scroll down to "Body Temperature and Colour" on this website titled "Signs of Dying." Also scroll down to "Signs of Imminent Death"

http://www.amitabhahospice.org/public/helpful_info/signs_of_dying.php

chernoff knows what is and what isnt medically correct... he was just reaching as you said

 

[StacyJ]

You are in no position to say it is to late for her to show outrage about what happened to her son none

I'm talking about her being mad because someone labeled her son a drug addict. She wasn't outraged when Rebbie and Janet said the same thing was she? was she outraged when Rowe and Oxman said it when MJ had just died?

 

[Milka]

We don't know that Alberto didn't know 911 hadn't been called. I think I probably would assume that Murray had already called (since that would be the FIRST thing I'd do if I were the one who found him). I would assume that help was already on the way and in the meantime I'd probably do whatever the doctor (at the time, the respected higher authority) asked me to do.

I'm about 20 pages behind, so maybe this has been said already - I agree and Michael Amir Williams said yesterday that he lied about not having a key when Murray wanted to go back to the house.

- Williams testified that he told Murray he didn’t have a key to the house when in fact he did. He says he called the house and ordered that it be put on lock down and not to let anyone in.

Looks like at some point they got suspicious and got the feeling that something was wrong. Before that, they probably trusted the doctor.

 

[chanel05]

Meh their strategy is pathetic

it is... im not sure anyone will buy into it... well lets hope not

 

[summer]

Something I just thought of after reading this article ( http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/30/local/la-me-murray-20101230 ) and about Murray's "defense theory"....and about the two syringes and MJ injecting himself.

We have a paramedic saying that Murray broke a syringe....and a broken syringe was found with an "unidentified fingerprint" on it. Well...wouldn't MJ's fingerprint be more than easily identified...and mind you, not just A fingerprint but MULTIPLE fingerprints? We have not heard ANYTHING about MJ's fingerprints on the syringes. And if there are no fingerprints...how was MJ able to inject Propofol himself? Oh because as we know he always wears one glove, right? Ha ha. Bet if there are any other fingerprints, they're probably from the paramedics, trying to get the broken syringe out of the way. :doh: Another thing...I'd like to know what kind of syringes exactly were found. If it was a 10 ml syringe, then how was MJ able to get 150mgs (=15ml) into him with it? Besides, I'd like to see someone being able to inject all of 15ml of Propofol by themselves without being knocked out half way in the process!!! It just ISN'T possible!! Besides, how does that go with Murray saying HE gave MJ 25mg of Propofol and MJ was knocked out with just that amount already ACCORDING to Murray? :mello: So.....IF that is true....how can MJ inject 150 mg BY HIMSELF before he is knocked out....when according to Murray he was already knocked out with just 25 mg he had given him???? HOW does THAT make sense??? Explaint me THAT....MURRAY!!! :doh: Even if Murray's lawyers would say "Yeah, MJ injected himself"...there is no way MJ could have injected the amount found in him ALL BY HIMSELF. It just IS NOT possible.

Like I've been saying...no matter HOW you twist it...the evidence speaks for itself!!!

 

[8701girl]

it is... im not sure anyone will buy into it... well lets hope not

I hope not too


But what im afraid of some ppl will beacuse of course it is michael jackson we are talking bout. And most of the public tend to beilive the "werid & wacky" things they have heard bout him and dont wanna hear the postive things bout him.

 

[MJStorm]

Funny, Katherine didn't make such a plea when her children, husband, and friends were calling Michael an addict. Where was this outrage when Oxman went on every new show and called Michael an addict? Where was it when Janet called him an addict or Randy or Rebbie. It's a little late to act outrage now.

Joe, just no comment.

Thank You.

 

[Justthefacts]

I'm talking about her being mad because someone labeled her son a drug addict. She wasn't outraged when Rebbie and Janet said the same thing was she? was she outraged when Rowe and Oxman said it when MJ had just died?

But saying she should not be outraged is not right

 

[Ramona122003]

I hope not too


But what im afraid of some ppl will beacuse of course it is michael jackson we are talking bout. And most of the public tend to beilive the "werid & wacky" things they have heard bout him and dont wanna hear the postive things bout him.

Considering how he died, I can actually under the weird and wacky part of it. Not too many will die because their doctor gave them propfol outside of a hospital when they were trying to sleep. Michael Jackson or not, that is not normal.

 

[marebear]

I don't understand how one mistake after another was made by Murray. You wouldn't believe he had any medical experience by the way everything is sounding.

 

[Lucilla]

That's not true! Erin on utream said that Senneff said how can I even answer that? He didn't know where the pros was going with that! And the judge cut off right there! He never answered yes to that question!

Thanks BLUE,
damn it TMZ!

Someone should tell TMZ to get their facts straight.

sadly, it won't make any difference.

F*ck TMZ!

Erin on Ustream also said that Murray broke the IV/syringe in MJ leg when the paramedics told him to use that same one to get MJ some ephedrine to start his heart! When Murray broke it they couldn't find the vain and had to start all over again poking him everywhere in his arms until they got it on his neck! *SIGH* :,(

Jesus Christ!

 

[ForeverKOP]

the problem is certain posters then run into conspiracy about his weight. which isnt what this thread is about. so ok lets admit mj was under weight. so? makes no difference to the case. all it makes a difference is to the con..theorists and those following the AEG lawsuit.

Thanks elusive, that is what I was trying to say. It can't be put any plainer.

Wait...what? I don't put my head into any of those consp. theories nor am I following the AEG lawsuit (have no idea what you're talking about btw), but I still feel concerned when I hear things like "extremely frail" and "hospice patient"...

 

[8701girl]

Considering how he died, I can actually under the weird and wacky part of it. Not too many will die because their doctor gave them propfol outside of a hospital when they were trying to sleep. Michael Jackson or not, that is not normal.

Do u mean to write " i can actually understand the werid & wacky part of it"? i didnt understand what u meant by that sorry.


Yeh i agree with u, it is not normal

 

[chanel05]

.
Murray NEVER having performed mouth to mouth before literally made me gasp out loud. I STILL cannot believe that. Not only becuz he was clueless performing it on Michael, but like others stated, that -as a doctor- he more than likely would have never done it for someone else. WHAT kind of "doctor" is this??!!! HOW does he still have a license???!! My God!

Then it hit me that if he had NEVER done mouth-to-mouth on anyone before and he only started it on Michael in Alvarez's presence, then that means when Alvarez walked into the room and saw Michael's mouth open, the open mouth was NOT the result of Murray performing it prior, like some of us considered. That was the most harmless and reasonable guess to explain the open mouth and now that seems to be off the list of possibilities.

if you think about, the doctors dont do the dirty work anyway. its the nurses, and nurses aid and the rescue people that do all the work. the doctor does the more technical stuff. so i believe that he has never done cpr especially since he is a specialist(it is still weird cause his specialty is cardiology

.
In an interview, LaToya "said" Paris told her that they (the kids) were not allowed upstairs or in the room (not sure if it was MJ's room or the other room) while Michael was "getting his oxygen" from Dr. Murray. This may explain why Paris felt her father was being worked to death (IF she's ever said such a thing). How could she not think this (IF she does) when a doctor is in her house giving her father "oxygen" overnight. Of course, we now know something more dangerous was being administered in addition to oxygen. At least Kai Chase previously mentioned Murray hauling oxygen tanks downstairs most mornings before breakfast...so oxygen WAS getting used.

i think the room was the dr's room. yea but i havent heardanything about oxygen during these testimonies and it should have been there

 

[AllForMJ]

I'm about 20 pages behind, so maybe this has been said already - I agree and Michael Amir Williams said yesterday that he lied about not having a key when Murray wanted to go back to the house.



Looks like at some point they got suspicious and got the feeling that something was wrong. Before that, they probably trusted the doctor.

Let's be glad that Michael Amir Williams did this because you know what? Murray was just pulling a stunt by trying to say he was going to get some cream that MJ wouldn't want the world to know about.

You know what Murray was really trying to go back and get?

He was trying to go back and get the rest of the propofol that he had left in his closet. That's what he was really going back for. He ain't slick.

 

[chanel05]

I'm talking about her being mad because someone labeled her son a drug addict. She wasn't outraged when Rebbie and Janet said the same thing was she? was she outraged when Rowe and Oxman said it when MJ had just died?

honestly we dont know if she was or wasnt outraged when they called him an addict. its not like she made a statement in the press about it, we only found out because someone was near her in the court room. we dont know what went on behind closed doors

 

[bluetopez]

It was not Chernoff who called MJ 4 times a drug addict in court who made Katherine upset (although he thinks the same) it was another lawyer for Murray named Rowe who was Britney Spears ex Attorney! Who was saying to the Paramedic that MJ was a drug addict and only drug addicts look like that wearing a shower cap on his head when the paramedic describe earlier that he could not recognize it was MJ!

 

[8701girl]

You know what Murray was really trying to go back and get?

He was trying to go back and get the rest of the propofol that he had left in his closet. That's what he was really going back for. He ain't slick.

Yep i reckon that is excatly what he was doing

 

[chanel05]

Something I just thought of after reading this article ( http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/30/local/la-me-murray-20101230 ) and about Murray's "defense theory"....and about the two syringes and MJ injecting himself.

We have a paramedic saying that Murray broke a syringe....and a broken syringe was found with an "unidentified fingerprint" on it. Well...wouldn't MJ's fingerprint be more than easily identified...and mind you, not just A fingerprint but MULTIPLE fingerprints? We have not heard ANYTHING about MJ's fingerprints on the syringes. And if there are no fingerprints...how was MJ able to inject Propofol himself? Oh because as we know he always wears one glove, right? Ha ha. Bet if there are any other fingerprints, they're probably from the paramedics, trying to get the broken syringe out of the way. :doh: Another thing...I'd like to know what kind of syringes exactly were found. If it was a 10 ml syringe, then how was MJ able to get 150mgs (=15ml) into him with it? Besides, I'd like to see someone being able to inject all of 15ml of Propofol by themselves without being knocked out half way in the process!!! It just ISN'T possible!! Besides, how does that go with Murray saying HE gave MJ 25mg of Propofol and MJ was knocked out with just that amount already ACCORDING to Murray? :mello: So.....IF that is true....how can MJ inject 150 mg BY HIMSELF before he is knocked out....when according to Murray he was already knocked out with just 25 mg he had given him???? HOW does THAT make sense??? Explaint me THAT....MURRAY!!! :doh: Even if Murray's lawyers would say "Yeah, MJ injected himself"...there is no way MJ could have injected the amount found in him ALL BY HIMSELF. It just IS NOT possible.

Like I've been saying...no matter HOW you twist it...the evidence speaks for itself!!!

the perimedics wouldnt have touched anything bare handed. they would have had on gloves. im sure they had on gloves before they entered the house. also im not sure but they say the dosages could have gotten mixed up by police when muarry gave the interview because they said that they were too small to do anything.

 

[Asedora]

We have a paramedic saying that Murray broke a syringe....and a broken syringe was found with an "unidentified fingerprint" on it. Well...wouldn't MJ's fingerprint be more than easily identified...and mind you, not just A fingerprint but MULTIPLE fingerprints? We have not heard ANYTHING about MJ's fingerprints on the syringes. Like I've been saying...no matter HOW you twist it...the evidence speaks for itself!!!

It is not stright forward always. Keep in mind that Chernoff asked a bodyguard if he toched the syringe and bodyguard answered: NO. Keep in mind what the bodyguard said.

 

[Ramona122003]

Do u mean to write " i can actually understand the werid & wacky part of it"? i didnt understand what u meant by that sorry.


Yeh i agree with u, it is not normal

I mean the way his died is strange and more than a little horrifying. I don't mean this as a dig towards Michael, but people will wonder how he could get himself into such a mess. From picking someone who isn't train, to using propfol to sleep, to allowing himself to be hook up like a patient, is a little much.

People may understand the medical 'errors' Murray did and he should pay for them. But, I don't think the average person would ever understand why Michael would do this to himself with kids in the house and being warn of the dangers. Which is what I meant when I said I could understand the weird & wacky part of it. Because it is weird and wacky.

 

[TheChosenOne]

I was hoping that we would not go down this road - discussing what Katherine Jackson allegedly said in court. But I see that some of us have.

We are not going to indulge in conspiracy theories in this thread and we certainly are not going to get in to calling out Mrs Jackson!

You have said what you wanted to say. Move on ...

 

[chanel05]

I hope not too


But what im afraid of some ppl will beacuse of course it is michael jackson we are talking bout. And most of the public tend to beilive the "werid & wacky" things they have heard bout him and dont wanna hear the postive things bout him.

well lets focus on the future jury and then worry about others later