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Michael - The Great Album Debate

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I always thought Jason Malachi kind of looks like a cross between Eminem and Jamie Kennedy.
 
Chamife said:
Bumper, incredible comparisons. It's exactly the same.

Ivy, this probably has been said before (the flow is discussed before, from what I learned) but to me it's new, so I want to ask you if you feel there's also no flow in some parts of Jason Malachi's Runner Up? Don't you think it's because Monster is just an up-tempo song and it's hard to sing it 'stop-go'?
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Pentum said:
How is this not the flow you are talking about, Ivy?

http://soundcloud.com/pentum/runner-up-a-cappella

Or do you want me to speed it up like the vocals in Monster has been?..
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I believe runner up is the song that TPIMaster also mentioned and I said that some parts has the flow and some parts don't. Still I feel like I can't express what I mean by flow. Listen to it:

almost flowly part : she was at the party - the shorty - was looking great
worse parts: she - walked - up - to - me- she- starts - question - ing

The same odd spacing is present in all Malachi songs.

and it's not about speed. I mean look to keep your head up "She's working two jobs, keeping alive,She works in a restaurant night and day,She waits her life away,She wipes her tears away". almost sounds like a continuous line

Cascio singer has this easy flow in delivery , it's almost natural. to me it sounds like different styles and technique. and I still feel like I can't really express what I'm trying to say.
 
What does the spacing, which has to do with the production of the vocals, have to do with the fact that the vocals sound identical in terms of sound(timbre, pitch, melody, etc)?

By the way, in the song I posted that sounds like Soldier Boy I don't hear the choppy sound you speak of. It sounds just the same.
 
Aniram said:
What does the spacing, which has to do with the production of the vocals, have to do with the fact that the vocals sound identical in terms of sound(timbre, pitch, melody, etc)?
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they don't sound "identical" to me and I don't think it's a "fact". :) and again I don't feel like what I'm saying is understood. spacing in my mind has nothing to do with production. I'm talking about the difference in delivery style of the singers.

bumper help me here. different languages has different speech rate and rhythm right? to me it sounds like different people because Malachi has a different rate and rhythm - his words sounds more spaced and separated.

anyway no one has to agree with me so don't mind me.
 
Well, honestly, to the general person they sound the same so you must have really sensitive ears if you can tell the difference.

Everyone I've seen that has heard Jason Malachi and heard the Cascio songs think they sound the same.

I've done this study with several people(brother, mother, girlfriend and four people I work with, all being general audience and none being intimidated by me to be on my side. I always ask for their honest opinion.), some of them aren't sure if it's MJ or not but they still think Jason's voice and the Cascio voice sound the same.

I don't know what you're trying to pick at to make it sound "different" to you, but I honestly think you're being unrealistic here. The gulps, the yelps, the way he delivers words, the pronunciation, etc. It's all Malachi-ish instead of Michael Jackson-ish. You can't hear that?

I know you've listened to a lot of Michael's music and are a big fan, I mean no disrespect to you, I know you mean well, but stop for a second and think about Michael's beautiful voice and the way he delivers songs.

Also think about how he says things like "HollEHwood"(in Hollywood Tonight and other songs), instead of the "HollYwood" in Monster.

Think about the "way-in" example that Pentum gave. Michael pronounced it "waiTing", Malachi pronounces it "way-in", Cascio singer pronounces it "way-in".
 
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Aniram said:
Well, honestly, to the general person they sound the same so you must have really sensitive ears if you can tell the difference.
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call it a personal experience.

okay real life story. the lead singer in the band that I worked with got famous almost overnight at 19. he was naturally talented with no musical training whatsoever. the reviews came in, almost all positive but one of the very well-known music reviewer wrote that "at times he sound like he's constipated". funny right? the reality was although this vocalist was talented he didn't have training and wasn't able to do the proper breathing technique etc and therefore his high notes and screams sounded forced like he was trying so hard to get through them, that's what the reviewer called "constipated". he immediately began training with vocal coaches (similar to Seth Riggs etc) and the difference was obvious and by the 4th album release 6 years later the same reviewer would write "finally he easily goes through the songs almost like second nature".

Now I don't know if this is understandable to the general person or not but I remember sitting in the studio watching him record and see how his technique improved over the years and how natural and easy it become to him when compared to 6 years ago. I get the same feeling when I listen to all this comparisons. I realize that when you go and pick out a word similar sounding from each song and put them back to back people immediately goes "oh it's the same", but when I sit back and look to it from a wider perspective it sounds different to me.

again there's no sense in arguing about this imo. this is what I hear. you don't agree - fine by me.

Everyone I've seen that has heard Jason Malachi and heard the Cascio songs think they sound the same.
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I hate this "everyone" generalizations. It's also a fact that there are a whole bunch of people that don't hear Malachi. and didn't you change your opinion?

I've done this study with several people(brother, mother, girlfriend and four people I work with, all being general audience and none being intimidated by me to be on my side. I always ask for their honest opinion.), some of them aren't sure if it's MJ or not but they still think Jason's voice and the Cascio voice sound the same.
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but they knew your opinion beforehand? hence leaded? or listened to leading comparisons?

I try similar studies with people as well. I never tell them my opinion and sometimes I ask them to pick the fake songs from the Michael album. I get mixed and interesting results. some hear Malachi some hear Michael and some would bet that hollywood tonight is fake. so I stay away from "everyone" generalizations because it's obviously a debate with different people hearing different things and there's not a generally agreed upon factual consensus.
 
So, according to your theory, wouldn't Malachi get better on the Cascio tracks and sound less choppy?

I don't know, it shouldn't be so hard to tell if Michael's singing or not. And really, it isn't, but some just don't seem to hear it.
 
ivy said:
they don't sound "identical" to me and I don't think it's a "fact". :) and again I don't feel like what I'm saying is understood. spacing in my mind has nothing to do with production. I'm talking about the difference in delivery style of the singers.

bumper help me here. different languages has different speech rate and rhythm right? to me it sounds like different people because Malachi has a different rate and rhythm - his words sounds more spaced and separated.

anyway no one has to agree with me so don't mind me.
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I think I see what you mean. But, based only on that argument it is impoosible to conclude if we are talking about the same person or two different people.

To my knowledge all Indo-European languages "flow". Let me explain myself:

When you say "get up", you say it as if it was one word "get_up", you don't chop it "get -space- up", unless you are a learner and you hesitate between words causing you to chop between them.

In reality when you speak you already sort of sing. Usually the voice flows even if you don't pronounce the word giving yourself time to think what you're going to say next. For example:

I_think_thaaa_-voice-_aat_weee_-voice-_might_ask_ourselves_if_ etc.

OR

Is_she_Chinese, you don't pronounce it [iz-space-she-space-Chinese] but [isheechinese] as if it were one word to which you add variation in the voice so that we know if you are asking a question or affirming something, etc.

In case of Malachi vs Cascio style, you already pointed out that voice can be processed in such a way to

1) either give the flow by eliminating the blank between chopped words or chop the words by inserting blanks.

and

2) the singer singing in his mother tongue (or even in a language that s/he doesn't master actually --think of some songs that you can learn in a language that you don't speak, yet deliver the necessary flow as in "Todo mi amor eres tu" or "Je ne veux pas la fin de nous"*)-- can deliberately choose to chop the words for the pace sake or sing them with flow.

In my opinion, it is not a question of capacity, but of the singer's choice or even studio processing.

All this does not remove the musical style which happens to be frankly the same in case of "Let me let go" and "Monster". I also provided a snippet on which you even hear the same melody.

Isn't it a bit too much of a coincidence that not only so far all the vocals that have been compared are characterized by the same timbre, but the melody is quasi the same in the part I pointed out?

http://soundcloud.com/bumper_snippet/plagiarizing



*"Je ne veux pas la fin de nous" whoever translated it, sounds horrible in French (lyrically speaking). It is just as if in English he sang "I don't want the end of us" instead of "I just can't stop loving you".
 
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ivy won't ever jump our side.
But it seems it's down to the flow.
Soundwise she already stated doubts very early on.

In my belief this flow difference can very easily be terminated by a) audio software and/or b) practice.
Further it's c) the style of the song that requires more flow (esp. if you compare Moster and Let me let go), and Jason delivers.

I dearly hope to sh*t those *p (esp. on youtube) that say "well, he's 50. His voice changed." very soon when we get to hear more 2006-2009 material.

It's just, the path for those believers is becoming thinner and thinner. Excuses after excuses, coincidences and special circumstances.

And don't forget: We're all on the same side. On the side of Michael Jackson. Even if you believe in those questionable songs, there is no reason to defend them.
 
bumper . . . wow. the plagiarizing clip blew my mind. honestly, i don't know what to say about that. and no, i do NOT believe you could find that kind of similarity between any number of short clips, as ivy suggested. it doesn't work like that, unless you're comparing clips from the SAME ARTIST (which is what I think is happening here)

and your posts about anger are right on. i believe "toooooo baaad" was exactly the moment i threw my headphones on the desk the first day i heard monster. i couldn't pinpoint WHY that part was so wrong, but you did, perfectly.

Arklove said:
Wow!!!! Now THAT is something!

I'm still blown away at the comparison of Monster and Let Me Let Go...They are the SAME song....I just can't get over it...
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Am i the only one who actually thinks let me let go would have been a MORE convincing choice for the Michael album? and yes, it's ridiculously similar to monster. they are practically the same song.
 
You have never been able to find comparisons to Jason in Michael's work before, why is it suddenly possible with these songs?

"Believers" seem to always forget that. Michael never sounded like "Cascio singer" ever.

Also ivy, saying "Cascio singer" kind of makes it seem like you doubt the vocals are really Michael.
 
azsummergirl said:
bumper . . . wow. the plagiarizing clip blew my mind. honestly, i don't know what to say about that. and no, i do NOT believe you could find that kind of similarity between any number of short clips, as ivy suggested. it doesn't work like that, unless you're comparing clips from the SAME ARTIST (which is what I think is happening here)

and your posts about anger are right on. i believe "toooooo baaad" was exactly the moment i threw my headphones on the desk the first day i heard monster. i couldn't pinpoint WHY that part was so wrong, but you did, perfectly.




Am i the only one who actually thinks let me let go would have been a MORE convincing choice for the Michael album? and yes, it's ridiculously similar to monster. they are practically the same song.
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Yup, Let Me Go would've been a better choice to fool the fans IMO. Toooooo baaaaaaaaaad it's already been released.
 
I hope the Cacsio tracks do turn out to by MJ. Contrary to some who write them off because of the ambiguity of the vocals I think they are good, albeit rough, tracks ('Stay' is without doubt the weakest). I am still waiting to be persuaded that it is either MJ or, as most of this forum seem to believe, Malachi. I've kind of accepted the tracks as MJ apocrypha for the time being. For the record I think it highly unlikely that the Cascios would go to all of the trouble of faking MJ's voice. . . On the other hand there is enough reasonable doubt to complicate their claim, and their silence only exasperates the matter.
 
Yukon Jack said:
I hope the Cacsio tracks do turn out to by MJ. Contrary to some who write them off because of the ambiguity of the vocals I think they are good, albeit rough, tracks ('Stay' is without doubt the weakest). I am still waiting to be persuaded that it is either MJ or, as most of this forum seem to believe, Malachi. I've kind of accepted the tracks as MJ apocrypha for the time being. For the record I think it highly unlikely that the Cascios would go to all of the trouble of faking MJ's voice. . . On the other hand there is enough reasonable doubt to complicate their claim, and their silence only exasperates the matter.
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Good post.

The thing is, I don't know why more people don't realize this is Michael Jackson we're talking about. It's not easy to fake his voice. It's not possible at all, really, people can maybe come really close, but he makes a song great, even if it's just a rough demo, you learn something from him.

Die-hard fans should be able to detect Michael's voice in a heartbeat. People post fake Michael Jackson songs on a daily basis and they are easily detected, within minutes, even when they are damn good impersonators, their roots can be traced.

The only difference in this case is that they've tried to cover their tracks. We don't know the exact way these songs came about. They haven't been that transparent with the fans. To me, they haven't really been honest about this project at all.
 
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