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According to the Autopsy Documents (link below), on pg 20 under "Gastrointestinal System", it states: "Portions of tablets and capsules cannot be discerned in the stomach" so that proves there were no pills found in the stomach.

On page 14 it indicates that only Propofol and Lidocaine were found in the stomach contents.

I know this is way out there but do you think there is any chance that when he realized MJ wasn't breathing, in a frantic attempt to set the stage and later claim that MJ "did it to himself" that he poured some of the IV solution from the "cut" bag of normal saline that would have contained Propofol and Lidocaine down MJ's throat such that they could say that MJ swallowed it himself? (and therefore why these 2 drugs are found in his stomach, which I still can't understand why)????

I'm just wondering, if someone is clinically dead and someone pours something down their throat, will it still end up in their stomach (just due to gravity)?

Remember when that one witness Sade Anding her 'coughing'....could it have been that Murray was pouring something down MJ's throat and MJ was coughing because of that?


http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Celebs/jackson, michael_report.pdf
 
I'm not a medical expert but that sounds highly unlikely to me. I don't see how gravity can work when the patient is horizontal or even semi-horizontal. But, as I say, I'm not a medical expert.
 
Annie123 said:
I'm not a medical expert but that sounds highly unlikely to me. I don't see how gravity can work when the patient is horizontal or even semi-horizontal. But, as I say, I'm not a medical expert.
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But what if Murray sat him up in bed and poured it into his mouth? I just can't understand HOW he could have been found to have Lidocaine and Propofol in his stomach contents and even though I think it's known that ingested Propofol/Lidocaine wouldn't cause any drug effect, the fact that the Defense have claimed that MJ must have injested these drugs is important. It doesn't make any sense that MJ would have so that's why I'm wondering if Murray poured some into his mouth or even syringed it down his throat (a syringe without a needle on the end of it, obviously) to cover his ass later, to make the claim that MJ must have took it upon himself to self-adminster it by swallowing it.

ETA: Okay, I just did a small experiment. I'm semi-reclined here on the couch with my laptop. I just poured a little water into my mouth with my head back a little and it very easily went down my throat without me even having to swallow. I tried it again with more water and the same thing. So who's to say that Murray didn't do this to MJ after he realized that he'd passed (stick a syringe containing Propofol and Lidocaine, with no needle on the end of the syringe, against back of his throat and inject the liquid such that just with gravity it would flow down esophagus and into stomach?
 
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If I remember correctly the amount of propofol and lidocaine in MJ's stomach was explained by a cut or hemorrage into his stomach (could be due to the ressucitation efforts or the autopsy or both). It was blood coming from other parts of his body that came into his stomach
 
Yes the coroner explained very easily why it was in the stomach.
 
lemon662 said:
I'm just wondering, if someone is clinically dead and someone pours something down their throat, will it still end up in their stomach (just due to gravity)?
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If someone is dead, pouring things into their mouths will stay there. It will not end up in the stomach.
 
It was blood coming from other parts of his body that came into his stomach
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exactly

Anatomical Summary:

1. Toxicology findings (see separate report).
A) Propofol, lorazepam, midazolam, lidocaine, diazepam and nordiazepam, identified in blood samples ( see toxicology reports for details)
B) Propofol, midazolam, lidocaine and ephedrine identified in urine.
C) Propofol and lidocaine identified in liver tissue.
D) Propofol identified in vitreous humor.
E) Lidocaine and propofol identified in stomach contents.
Toxicology:
Blood, bile, liver tissue, stomach, urine and vitreous humor have been submitted to the laboratory. A comprehensive screen is requested.

2. Nodular prostatic hyperplasia.
A) Prominent intravesical median lobe enlargement.
B) Urinary retention.
3. Vitiligo.
4. Tubular adenoma of colon.
5. Evidence of therapy.

A) Endotracheal tube

B) Intravascular catheters of left neck, and both femoral regions.
C) Intra-aortic balloon pump, inserted through left femoral artery.
D) Punctures and contusions of right neck, both arms, left calf, and right ankle.
E) Condom catheter.
F) Resuscitative abrasion-contusion of central chest.
G) Resuscitative alveolar hemorrhage of lungs.
H) Resuscitative transmural hemorrhage of stomach
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on other pages when they got into detail about the organs that's what they stated about the stomach
" There are a few mucosal hemorrhages, but no ulceration."
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no ulceration but mucosal hemorrhages they concluded : Resuscitative transmural hemorrhage of stomach . Which would explain why would propofol lidocaine and lorazepam be detected in his stomach.
 
Whats does it actually mean when it says no ulceration and a few mucosal hem.. how dies that create the reasoning that it was the cpr that caused it
 
they detected blood in his stomach. What usually causes gastric bleeding ? ulceration. MJ did not suffer from ulceration , did not have a problem in his stomach antemortem so they concluded the blood found must have leaked from the wall of the stomach during resuscitative attempts.
 
Something I find odd. The witness yesterday (toxicologist Anderson) testified that 3x 400ml containers of urine were drained from MJ's bladder (so a total of 1200 mls) at time of autopsy.

1. If MJ was being treated for "dehydration", he surely was well hydrated on the day of his death for if someone was dehydrated, no way they'd produce that much urine.

2. When someone dies, my understanding is that the muscles in the body relax and their bladder would spontaneously empty. How was it that his bladder remained full of SO much urine?
 
yesterday the toxilogist took the stand. It was really hard to understand. Did the defense asked him about the amount that was given? And did he say it was difficult to say that??

If yes: What did he say how many was given from the propofol?

To all medical experts here thank you so much for helping us. i felt so stupid yesterday, when the tox was up on stand.

Ive got another question: Ive michael died let say at 11.30 am, then would the bloodlevels froze? Like there is no blood flowing anymore, can the amount meds in the blood stay that way?

Because if CM gave michael around 11 the propofol and he died quickly after that, the whole amount must be seen in the results?

Also If you are a doc you cant thread fam members because of the emotional being close. Cm was upset by michael being in arrest. Why would the ER docs allow Cm to say keep going?? I found that so strange. He was pronounced death in the field at 12.57 but Cm wanted micheal to go to UCLA. There they tried more than 1 hour. Only because of CM. Why? There is never been a pulse or change. Its a waste of time, respect hope and everybody.
Also it makes maybe difficult to see what Cm gave and what the ER gave?
 
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Also, there was urine on the scene, tested and urine from the hospital tested. was there a different of propofl amount?

If urine is out of the body, stops the half life of medication? OR can it go away in the urine if tested to late?

Ephedrine was found in urine, not in blood, that means it was given more than 24 hours. I thought it was used for cpr, but why did cm gave it michael a day before? what more use has it?
 
Ingelief said:
Also, there was urine on the scene, tested and urine from the hospital tested. was there a different of propofl amount?

If urine is out of the body, stops the half life of medication? OR can it go away in the urine if tested to late?

Ephedrine was found in urine, not in blood, that means it was given more than 24 hours. I thought it was used for cpr, but why did cm gave it michael a day before? what more use has it?
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The paramedics administered "epinephrine" to MJ on Jun 25 (when trying to resuscitate him), not ephedrine. I believe the Ephedrine found in urine was likely related to the pills that were found that contained ephedrine/caffeine/aspirin. Likely something he was taking as a stimulant/for energy.
 
Ingelief said:
yesterday the toxilogist took the stand. It was really hard to understand. Did the defense asked him about the amount that was given? And did he say it was difficult to say that??

If yes: What did he say how many was given from the propofol?

To all medical experts here thank you so much for helping us. i felt so stupid yesterday, when the tox was up on stand.

Ive got another question: Ive michael died let say at 11.30 am, then would the bloodlevels froze? Like there is no blood flowing anymore, can the amount meds in the blood stay that way?

Because if CM gave michael around 11 the propofol and he died quickly after that, the whole amount must be seen in the results?

Also If you are a doc you cant thread fam members because of the emotional being close. Cm was upset by michael being in arrest. Why would the ER docs allow Cm to say keep going?? I found that so strange. He was pronounced death in the field at 12.57 but Cm wanted micheal to go to UCLA. There they tried more than 1 hour. Only because of CM. Why? There is never been a pulse or change. Its a waste of time, respect hope and everybody.
Also it makes maybe difficult to see what Cm gave and what the ER gave?
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The toxicologist said he couldn't determine the exact amount of a drug administered because everyone's body processes drugs differently and many other factors affect this. He didn't answer a lot of the questions about redistribution of the drugs etc because it was more of a pharmocological subject and he did not have the expertise to answer that.

Regarding the blood levels after someone is dead, that will be outside my area of expertise. It wouldn't change much because metabolism etc would have stopped but I'm not sure if tehre will still be some change in certain drugs eg. breaking down to metabolites for a little while after. Someone with a pharmacological background will be better to answer that.

Murray said he was Michael's personal doctor. He is supposed to have a purely professional doctor-patient relationship with Michael and therefore is treated as such. The ER doctors gave Murray the benefit of the doubt because as a medical professional, he said he had felt a pulse. At the time he said he felt a pulse, he had the highest authority as a doctor (the others present were paramedics) so they kept going in the hospital, in the event that there was a very slim chance of saving Michael.
 
thx!
But you get my point that its stupid if the protocol is 20 min, with no change to call it, that they went to the hospital and tryed there for more then 1 hour. That u huge time more.
 
Ingelief said:
thx!
But you get my point that its stupid if the protocol is 20 min, with no change to call it, that they went to the hospital and tryed there for more then 1 hour. That u huge time more.
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Yes, I agree. It's unusual to keep going for that length of time when there's no change in the condition at all. that's why they wanted to call it initially. But Murray said he felt a pulse...
 
Hi everyone, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge in this thread. I have some general questions regarding the kind of sleep Michael would have been experiencing on Propofol. Would he have gone into REM sleep? Would he truly awake feeling refreshed after long periods of Propofol sedation?

And lastly, in Murray's taped interview with police, he said he knew Michael was sleeping deeply when he began to snore. Would someone sedated w/Propofol snore?

Thanks in advance for your help!
 
He said mjs pulse was 122 is that correct for someone with a faint pulse. doesnt really make sense as my normal pulse is around 90
 
You can't become physical addicted to it like opiates. You, however, form a mental addiction to it because it can feel very good waking from its efforts
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Those who form mental addiction to it , reinject themselves with propofol many many times to re feel the awakining feelings. Those who abuse propofol for recreational reasons reinject it up to 50 , 100 times A DAY. That's why people abuse propofol
 
Soundmind said:
Those who form mental addiction to it , reinject themselves with propofol many many times to re feel the awakining feelings. Those who abuse propofol for recreational reasons reinject it up to 50 , 100 times A DAY. That's why people abuse propofol
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where are you getting this from? Source, please?
 
celiesblues said:
Hi everyone, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge in this thread. I have some general questions regarding the kind of sleep Michael would have been experiencing on Propofol. Would he have gone into REM sleep? Would he truly awake feeling refreshed after long periods of Propofol sedation?

And lastly, in Murray's taped interview with police, he said he knew Michael was sleeping deeply when he began to snore. Would someone sedated w/Propofol snore?

Thanks in advance for your help!
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With propofol, it isn't proper 'sleep' which is why most medics are appalled that Murray was using it for this purpose let alone all the risks involved. I'm not sure exactly what kind of sleep it is, but I doubt it would be REM sleep.

He shouldn't snore. I found that quite alarming when he said that. It means that Michael's airway was being partially obstructed. He would still be able to breathe but because of the sedation, his airway was not being well protected. In that instance something should be done to rectify it but Murray took it to mean that it was reassuring cos he was in deep sleep
 
Cookie Monzter said:
With propofol, it isn't proper 'sleep' which is why most medics are appalled that Murray was using it for this purpose let alone all the risks involved. I'm not sure exactly what kind of sleep it is, but I doubt it would be REM sleep.

He shouldn't snore. I found that quite alarming when he said that. It means that Michael's airway was being partially obstructed. He would still be able to breathe but because of the sedation, his airway was not being well protected. In that instance something should be done to rectify it but Murray took it to mean that it was reassuring cos he was in deep sleep
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Thanks for answering. Wow, that's bad!

I'm wondering, also, about the lack of REM sleep? Isn't that NECESSARY, as a kind of "mental rest and processing?" Would the prolonged lack of REM sleep not be similar to prolonged insomnia, i.e could result in confusion and other problems with thought-processing?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
He said mjs pulse was 122 is that correct for someone with a faint pulse. doesnt really make sense as my normal pulse is around 90
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No that wouldn't be something expected. It doesn't even sound plausible to be honest. His account in the police interview is highly suspicious, too many inconsistencies (from a medical point of view). The pulse should be normal (Murray previously said Michael's is usually in the 70s), if as Murray said he practically witnessed the respiratory arrest. Or it would be slow or there wouldn't be a pulse at all. it wouldn't be high.

he also said he then started mouth to mouth and chest compressions. If Michael's pulse was 122, you wouldn't start chest compressions. It would just be correcting the airway and breathing side of things.
 
Autumn II said:
Thanks for answering. Wow, that's bad!

I'm wondering, also, about the lack of REM sleep? Isn't that NECESSARY, as a kind of "mental rest and processing?" Would the prolonged lack of REM sleep not be similar to prolonged insomnia, i.e could result in confusion and other problems with thought-processing?
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Yes, it's not proper sleep. I'm not sure of the longer term effects cos it's not meant to be used for insomnia but I'm sure you would see effects of not having proper sleep for long time.
 
I agree, one doesn't get 'addicted' to propofol. So there's really no need to 'wean' Michael off it, as Murray claims
 
Cheers cookie. so everything hes claiming seems to be a load of b.s
 
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