Medical Information, Questions and Answer thread

May I ask about heart death please?

Dr Richelle Cooper testified that Michael's condition on arrival at the ER ( at 13.14, I believe) was that he was 'clinically dead with no pulse and a wide slow agonal heart rhythm'.

Please could you comment on how long you would expect the heart to show that rhythm after the patient stops breathing? Is it possible to give a maximum time for this 'electrical' activity to continue, which may help to say that the time of 'stopping breathing' could not have been more than x hours beforehand?
 
Last edited:
Hello everyone, I'm new here. I have a health care background myself. I was recently reading MJ's Autospy Report (found online: http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Celebs/jackson, michael_report.pdf ) and I noticed some interesting things:

1. On page 5 under the section "Informant/Witness Statements" (end of the first paragraph), it's stated that Murray found MJ not breathing at 12:00 and he proceeded to put him onto the FLOOR and begin CPR. Now I'm not sure WHO gave this info to law enforcement such that it was reported this way in this document (Murray? someone else?) but this totally goes against the 911 call made by Alberto Alvarez that was apparently made at, what, 12:21pm?....where he indicated to the 911 dispatcher that MJ was having CPR performed on him ON THE BED.

2. If you look on pg 8 and 9 of the documents, you'll see documents indicating the meds that MJ was on/had been prescribed/were at his home. If you look at the bottom of both pages 8 and 9 in the section "Paraphernalia Description" you'll see that an Empty glass vial of Propofol was found......but ALSO (!!) an EMPTY glass vial of the medication FLUMAZENIL. This is medication that's given to COUNTERACT Benz the sedative effect of Benzodiazepines. As you can see from these documents, MJ either took/was prescribed (many by Murray) or had in his possession, many different benzodiazepine meds (diazepam, lorazepam, temazepam, midazolam, clonazepam).

We know that MJ's cause of death has been determined to be acute Propofol toxicity which was further accentuated by benzodiazepines. So it would appear that SOMEONE had given MJ Flumazenil IV at some point, to counteract the benzos in his system. How well was someone (Murray) monitoring him if there was a point that he had so much benzo meds in his system that he needed a Benzo-antagonist med? I wonder if mention of this med will come up in the trial

3. From everything I've read about Propofol, it just seems like a very, very strange choice of medications to use to help an insomniac sleep. Because of it's very short half-life, in order to keep someone sedated for any length of time, one would have to be giving a continuous IV drip of this med as opposed to giving bolus injections (a syringe of it injected into the port of the IV periodically). And you cannot run a continuous Propofol IV drip without using a proper IV pump and a pump was never found or said to have been used.

4. It seems interesting to me that according to the testimony of, I believe Firefighter/Paramedic Senneff, that Murray "accidentally" pulled out the IV that was in MJs left lower leg/foot. Was it really an accident or was did he do it intentionally (knowing it would be very difficult to get another IV started to therefore administer meds that could help to revive MJ/start his heart) to reduce the chances that he would be resuscitated?

5. Alberto Alvarez testified that it was during the call to 911 that he was instructed to get MJ down onto the floor so they did this. He also testified that Murray was stupidly doing CPR with only one hand, on a soft bed. It makes me wonder if.......Murray knew that MJ had been dead for quite some time and knew that CPR wasn't going to help anyway..................OR................he was intentionally performing CPR incorrectly/ineffectively because he didn't really want to save MJ.

6. Firefighter Senneff testified that when he entered the bedroom MJ was in, he saw Murray and some other unnamed security person, moving MJ from the bed to the floor; that at the moment he walked into MJ's room he saw MJ's torso (upper body) on the bed but his lower body closer to the floor. This conflicts what Alvarez testified previously (or does it? Did he ever really say that they DID move MJ down onto the floor when the 911 told them to get him onto the floor? It's not like he said clearly that they DID move him to the floor at that point did he?). BUT, say they DID move him to the floor as directed by the 911 dispatcher, there's nothing to say that he wasn't moved back ONTO the bed for some other reason (as directed by Murray) following that.

7. Alvarez stated that MJ had only ONE IV in his left foot and it was connected to a bag of Normal Saline. Just because that's all he SAW (and all that paramedics saw) doesn't mean he didn't have an IV in the other lower leg/foot PRIOR (that Murray had previously removed). Of course only one patent IV was necessary for Murray to be injecting ANY med into.

8. I find it very strange that apparently there were 'bottles of urine' located in that bedroom. Why on earth wouldn't the urine that would have been emptied from the collection bag that was attached to MJs condom catheter just have been emptied into a toilet/discarded? That's just bizarre to me.

9. In the Autopsy Report documents, I don't read anything about there having been extra bags of IV fluids found. If MJ was apparently being treated for "dehydration", wouldn't you expect to find extra bags of fluid on hand?

10. If Murray claims that he witnessed MJ having stopped breathing around noon, and paramedics noted no change in MJ's condtion despite CPR, despite the meds given (epinephrine, atropine, sodium bicarb) such that Dr Cooper told them that they were authorized to pronounce him dead, why did they continue to work on him at UCLA? What on earth did they think they would be able to do if he'd been clinically dead since at LEAST noon? (wasn't it about 13:13 or 13:17 that he arrived by ambulance @ UCLA?) If a person's been clinically dead for that long, what hope would there have been? They officially pronounced him dead as 14:26. That's pretty much 2.5 hours after he was reported found not breathing. Do you really think they worked on him that long (from 13:17 to 14:26) at UCLA? I realize he was a celebrity and they'd want to ensure that they did EVERYTHING to revive him but they reportedly never saw any change in his condition (with respect to his heart function) so it seems strange to me that they would have kept trying for that long. Does anyone else find this strange?
 
Hello everyone, I'm new here. I have a health care background myself. I was recently reading MJ's Autospy Report (found online: http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Celebs/jackson, michael_report.pdf ) and I noticed some interesting things:

7. Alvarez stated that MJ had only ONE IV in his left foot and it was connected to a bag of Normal Saline. Just because that's all he SAW (and all that paramedics saw) doesn't mean he didn't have an IV in the other lower leg/foot PRIOR (that Murray had previously removed). Of course only one patent IV was necessary for Murray to be injecting ANY med into.

9. In the Autopsy Report documents, I don't read anything about there having been extra bags of IV fluids found. If MJ was apparently being treated for "dehydration", wouldn't you expect to find extra bags of fluid on hand?

Yes lemon662, I wondered about this IV line too.

When Walgren was examining Alvarez on Thursday 29th sept, Alvarez said that when he grabbed MJs ankles to help CM move him off the bed, AA 'noticed a long clear plastic tube from the IV bag to MJs leg, and Dr Murray removed that...pulled it out'. Does that mean he removed the tubing and left the port in (is that what you call it)?
Or how come the IV line was still there for the paramedics to (try to) use?

AA also said that he observed ' there was a brown box on the bed and CM clipped it on to (MJ's) finger before they moved MJ off the bed'.
He then went on to describe how CM had gone to the security trailer on an earlier date and asked for AAA batteries for it.
I am not sure how this (pulse oximeter) was not observed by the paramedics?....not really a question for the medics here I know, but a strange lack of consistency in 'on scene' observations.
 
Last edited:
Maybe the ment the injection port was still there. murray pulled out the line so it wasnt connected to the bag so they could move mj but the actual needle/line sorry dont the actual term was still in mjs leg. as the medics then said murray pulled that out or broke it later
 
China_hemostasis_Y_connector201012241400064.jpg


this is a Y connector , one port used to attach long tubing hooked to IV bag via spike and the other ending has short tubing with a port to inject drugs using a syrine. This Y connector was attached to IV catheter in MJ's leg and probably that's what the paramedics saw.
 
When is a person considered dead? EMT's said Michael appeared to be death for some time and he was flat lined and they worked hard to resucitate him. If he was dead how could they resucitate him? The staff at the hospital kept trying for close to two hrs. To resucitate is to bring him back to life? I don't understand the meaning of medical resucitation. Can someone please explain.

I know about cases where the heart had stoped r minutes and then after quick assistance the heart goes back to beating again. But I don't understand about the resucitation or about keep working on a patient for approx. 2 hrs after wanting to declare him dead. What's the medical reason?
 
Thank you for your summary lemon662

2. If you look on pg 8 and 9 of the documents, you'll see documents indicating the meds that MJ was on/had been prescribed/were at his home. If you look at the bottom of both pages 8 and 9 in the section "Paraphernalia Description" you'll see that an Empty glass vial of Propofol was found......but ALSO (!!) an EMPTY glass vial of the medication FLUMAZENIL. This is medication that's given to COUNTERACT Benz the sedative effect of Benzodiazepines. As you can see from these documents, MJ either took/was prescribed (many by Murray) or had in his possession, many different benzodiazepine meds (diazepam, lorazepam, temazepam, midazolam, clonazepam).

We know that MJ's cause of death has been determined to be acute Propofol toxicity which was further accentuated by benzodiazepines. So it would appear that SOMEONE had given MJ Flumazenil IV at some point, to counteract the benzos in his system. How well was someone (Murray) monitoring him if there was a point that he had so much benzo meds in his system that he needed a Benzo-antagonist med? I wonder if mention of this med will come up in the trial

Wow, I didn't consider this detail.

4. It seems interesting to me that according to the testimony of, I believe Firefighter/Paramedic Senneff, that Murray "accidentally" pulled out the IV that was in MJs left lower leg/foot. Was it really an accident or was did he do it intentionally (knowing it would be very difficult to get another IV started to therefore administer meds that could help to revive MJ/start his heart) to reduce the chances that he would be resuscitated?

Everything you pointed out is strange. But Number 4 is one of the many stupidities that Dr did, that is bothering me to no end.
 
Last edited:
We know that MJ's cause of death has been determined to be acute Propofol toxicity which was further accentuated by benzodiazepines. So it would appear that SOMEONE had given MJ Flumazenil IV at some point, to counteract the benzos in his system. How well was someone (Murray) monitoring him if there was a point that he had so much benzo meds in his system that he needed a Benzo-antagonist med? I wonder if mention of this med will come up in the trial

I have a question about the above. We know that propofol leaves the body quickly. Do the benzos also leave the body quickly if the Flumazenil is given? What I mean is, yes, he could have been trying to reverse the effects of the benzos. But, is it possible he was trying to avoid detection of the benzos in blood work if Michael had survived, or in his body upon autopsy? Or, could an accurate dosage of benzos be determined even if Flumazenil is given?
 
I have a question about the above. We know that propofol leaves the body quickly. Do the benzos also leave the body quickly if the Flumazenil is given? What I mean is, yes, he could have been trying to reverse the effects of the benzos. But, is it possible he was trying to avoid detection of the benzos in blood work if Michael had survived, or in his body upon autopsy? Or, could an accurate dosage of benzos be determined even if Flumazenil is given?

Good questions, I'd like to know the answers too.
 
When is a person considered dead? EMT's said Michael appeared to be death for some time and he was flat lined and they worked hard to resucitate him. If he was dead how could they resucitate him? The staff at the hospital kept trying for close to two hrs. To resucitate is to bring him back to life? I don't understand the meaning of medical resucitation. Can someone please explain.

I know about cases where the heart had stoped r minutes and then after quick assistance the heart goes back to beating again. But I don't understand about the resucitation or about keep working on a patient for approx. 2 hrs after wanting to declare him dead. What's the medical reason?

They're a saying in the medical world, 'death is a process, not an event'. Meaning just because you're 'dead' doesn't mean you can't be brought back. If Michael really did stop breathing and Murray called right away, what the MTs believe, they still could had saved him even after a long period of time had passed because they got oxygen into the brain quickly to prevent brain death.

My uncle for example had a heart attack and pretty much died instantly at the house, but because my uncle gave him CPR right away and called 911, they spend almost two hours trying to save him. So, what they did wasn't too unusual.
 
did Murray have oxygen in the house at all for MJ? was there a balloon pump? how was he planning on giving MJ oxygen if MJ had stopped breathing? Did Murray have any plan of action at all???
 
They're a saying in the medical world, 'death is a process, not an event'. Meaning just because you're 'dead' doesn't mean you can't be brought back. If Michael really did stop breathing and Murray called right away, what the MTs believe, they still could had saved him even after a long period of time had passed because they got oxygen into the brain quickly to prevent brain death.

My uncle for example had a heart attack and pretty much died instantly at the house, but because my uncle gave him CPR right away and called 911, they spend almost two hours trying to save him. So, what they did wasn't too unusual.

Ramona, was your uncle saved?

I'm so confused and sad with the new reports on Michael's death, it's a tragedy and on top of that my sinus is killing me. Ok, the flatline means the heart is not working, right? Now if on top of that he's not breathing, how could oxygene reach his brain?
 
I have a question about the above. We know that propofol leaves the body quickly. Do the benzos also leave the body quickly if the Flumazenil is given? What I mean is, yes, he could have been trying to reverse the effects of the benzos. But, is it possible he was trying to avoid detection of the benzos in blood work if Michael had survived, or in his body upon autopsy? Or, could an accurate dosage of benzos be determined even if Flumazenil is given?

That's an excellent question!!....would the administration of a benzodiazepine-antagonist breakdown/reduce the level of benzos in the blood such that the level would appear much LOWER than what had actually been the level that caused or contributed to the respiratory arrest?
 
That's an excellent question!!....would the administration of a benzodiazepine-antagonist breakdown/reduce the level of benzos in the blood such that the level would appear much LOWER than what had actually been the level that caused or contributed to the respiratory arrest?

EXACTLY. Because if true, the amount of benzos could have been much higher than the tox reports indicate. . . . and far more negligent of Murray.

The theory presented by the defense that "Michael took eight pills," I think could easily be refuted. They also said, "resulting in instant death." There were no pills found in stomach contents, and "taking eight pills" would not have resulted in "instant death" because the pill form of the medication would have taken time to metabolize. Right?
 
Ramona, was your uncle saved?

I'm so confused and sad with the new reports on Michael's death, it's a tragedy and on top of that my sinus is killing me. Ok, the flatline means the heart is not working, right? Now if on top of that he's not breathing, how could oxygene reach his brain?

No, despite doing everything right and getting him to the hospital quickly, he passed away. They did humanly possible, but he had sever blockage in three veins in his heart practically useless, so it isn't exactly the same as Michael.

Although, there are case studies when people died for an extended amount of time and they were brought back. Most happened because the body was cold and it put their bodies in a state of suspended animation. In fact, one of the ways to help people survive a cardiac arrest is to put them on ice.

Oxygen can reach the brain if a tube is put in to force the lungs to work, must like what the MTs did for Michael. It was just too late in Michael's case. Even if they got his heart beating, Michael would had most likely been brain dead. Yes, flatline means the heart stopped, but you can still maintain blood flow with CPR.
 
EXACTLY. Because if true, the amount of benzos could have been much higher than the tox reports indicate. . . . and far more negligent of Murray.

The theory presented by the defense that "Michael took eight pills," I think could easily be refuted. They also said, "resulting in instant death." There were no pills found in stomach contents, and "taking eight pills" would not have resulted in "instant death" because the pill form of the medication would have taken time to metabolize. Right?

Yes, no one dies instant from taking pills, that's a medical fact. It isn't like taking an injection which puts the drug directly into the bloodstream. The pills had to be digested before it can go into the blood and cause an OD. That's how people who OD themselves on pills can call 911 in most cases. Also, most people who overdosed on pills are saved because the process is quite slow. Even if Michael took eight pills, he died too fast to have any effort on the cause of death.
 
EXACTLY. Because if true, the amount of benzos could have been much higher than the tox reports indicate. . . . and far more negligent of Murray.

The theory presented by the defense that "Michael took eight pills," I think could easily be refuted. They also said, "resulting in instant death." There were no pills found in stomach contents, and "taking eight pills" would not have resulted in "instant death" because the pill form of the medication would have taken time to metabolize. Right?

Perhaps one of the MD volunteers here can comment on this? From what I'm reading on Flumanezil, though, it seems to me that all it does is block the effect of benzos on the central nervous system but nothing I'm reading seems to indicate that administration of this drug would cause/result in a reduced level of benzos in the bloodstream.

http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/archives/fdaDrugInfo.cfm?archiveid=49565

Some of what I've read indicates that it's very risky to use in someone who has a long-standing history of benzo use/abuse.

It also indicates that if given to patients who have a history of benzo dependence, they are more at risk of severe benzo withdrawal symptoms that can include seizures so in this case it must be given very cautiously and slowly, with very meticulous monitoring.

If you look at the Autopsy Documents you'll see that one of the injectable meds they found was injectable Lorazepam. So while Murray indicated that MJ had taken 8mg of Lorazepam (pills), perhaps he was given 8mg intravenously (which would be a lot more potent a lot more quicker than giving via pill).
 
Yes, no one dies instant from taking pills, that's a medical fact. It isn't like taking an injection which puts the drug directly into the bloodstream. The pills had to be digested before it can go into the blood and cause an OD. That's how people who OD themselves on pills can call 911 in most cases. Also, most people who overdosed on pills are saved because the process is quite slow. Even if Michael took eight pills, he died too fast to have any effort on the cause of death.

Hmm, I guess I misunderstood something. I thought it was alleged by Murray's side that MJ took 8mg of Lorazepam but I see it was 8 pills. According to the Autospy Documents, MJ had 2mg tablets so 8 x 2mg = 16mg. That's a whopping amount of Lorazepam (if that's even true, of course) for anyone to take at once. We don't really know for sure "when" MJ died, how long before the 911 call was made. So if he had Propofol onboard plus had a crapload of Lorazepam in his system, that surely could have stopped his breathing.
 
Flumazenil :

- Flumazenil was detected in one of the two syringes , in the short tubing connected to the Y connector and used to inject drugs.

- According to one of the experts that took the stand during the preliminary hearing scientists have not found a scientofic way to detect flumazenil in the human body, thus they did not run test for it in MJ's case .

- Murray purchased large amounts of flumazenil , why did he do that? he was expecting MJ to "overdose" frequently ? that's contradict his claims " I started to use it on June 23rd and 24th and only used 2 mg "

Lorazepam:

- I read peack concentration for 2mg is 0.020ug/ml , for 4 mg is 0.040ug/ml . So I would assume the "8 pills" figure was given to explain the 0.167ug/ml lorazepam concentration detected. right? 0.167 could be a result of a 16 mg of lorazepam .

- Murray in his statement told the police he gave MJ 2 doses of INTERVANEOUS lorazepam . 2mg at 3 am , another 2mg at 5 am . If the timing was true the action duration would have ended by the time MJ died , so in other words he gave those specific timings to avoid taking responsibility for the very high lorazepam concentrations he was aware they would be found in MJ's body and would be listed as a contributing factor,

-Dr.Ruffelo said due to the fluids MJ received that day , he estimated that concentrations found in MJ's body would have been higher by 5 to 30% perimortem , and that applies specifically to the benzo , so we should expect even HIGHER dosage than 16mg .

- Ruffelo said the same could be applied to propofol, so the blood concentration 4.5ug/ml was even higher premortem , indicating a very short survival time(my opinion suppored by medical facts) , so if the circulation stopped very shortly after injection what influence really flumazenil would have on the lorazepam concentration ? in my opinion very little if none.

- The only thing that could have saved MJ was Murray calling 911 immediatley then doing what Blount's did. He would not have been able to make the heart beat but "he could have brought breathing back " -Ruffelo's words- which was essential before the paramedics arrived with the meds to revive the heart.I believe eventhough the survival time was very short he could have saved him if he did what was in MJ's best interest instead of trying to revive him on his own to avoid being exposed.

- one more thing that caught my attention was Ruffelo's statement "Under general, they can obstruct theri airway even though they look like they’re breathing.

Asks to explain. So his airway is constricted, but his chest still rises and falls.

The breath is shallow, and not as often. (I’m thinking that the diaphram muscles keep working, but not necessarily air is moving.)

Talks about deeper and deeper sedation and how the air way can be constricted."

Another expected blow to Murray.
 
I forgot something, peack concentration of oral lorazepam is reached after 60 + minutes of the dose , so brace yourself for a totaly new story from the defence to explain that

Does anyone here remember what Chernoff exact words regarding lorazepam were at the opening statement?
 
never mind. (I've reported the posts.)

This is a VERY valuable thread, and thanks!

(edit) Here is another question. Is there any medical use for flumazenil, OTHER than as an antagonist for benzos?
 
Last edited:
No, despite doing everything right and getting him to the hospital quickly, he passed away. They did humanly possible, but he had sever blockage in three veins in his heart practically useless, so it isn't exactly the same as Michael.

Although, there are case studies when people died for an extended amount of time and they were brought back. Most happened because the body was cold and it put their bodies in a state of suspended animation. In fact, one of the ways to help people survive a cardiac arrest is to put them on ice.

Oxygen can reach the brain if a tube is put in to force the lungs to work, must like what the MTs did for Michael. It was just too late in Michael's case. Even if they got his heart beating, Michael would had most likely been brain dead. Yes, flatline means the heart stopped, but you can still maintain blood flow with CPR.

Sorry about your uncle. I appreciate your explanation. Thanks.
 
Sorry for the delayed replies. I've been at work all weekend.

A person is not considered 'officially' dead until verified by an appropriate medical professional. Hence, even if the actual time of death is thought to be much earlier, the time of death is still stated as the time that the person was pronounced dead by the medical professional. In cardiac/respiratory arrest situations, the patient may not be showing any signs of life like breathing by themselves, having a pulse etc. If the event was fairly recent, resuscitation attempts will be attempted to try to help reverse whatever has caused the event. CPR and the drugs given during resuscitative efforts can sort of 'jump start' things in some situations. Without medical intervention, the patient will not survive.

It is not common, in my personal experience, for resuscitative efforts to continue for that length of time. when a person has been 'down' for that length of time, it is very very unlikely to get someone back and even if that was possible, the prognosis will be very poor due to the amount of time the brain has been without oxygen. Commonly, after a few cycles of CPR - about 20-30 minutes without any change, resuscitative efforts would stop as continuing efforts will most likely be futile.

I cannot comment on how long after a person stops breathing that an agonal rhythm can be expected. This is likely to be due to the direct effect of the drugs administered during the resuscitative efforts ie multiple doses of epinephrine (adrenaline). So it is more like these drugs are causing these effects rather than the heart is actually starting to beat properly.

Yes, flumazenil reverses the effects of the benzodiazepines. to my knowledge, it will not change the actual levels of lorazepam in the body. it does not get rid of it or change it. It acts by blocking the benzodiazepines from working despite it still being in the system. I do not know of any other use of flumazenil, if there are otehr uses, it is not common anyway
 
What do you think of the quantity of Benoquin ordrerd in April ?(40 30gr tubes in early April, and then 60 gr 20 tubes. Benoquin 60 gr 20 tubes on june 10th).

Was that much really needed ?

It surprised me, and I was wondering if Murray was buying them for London, or some other reason. Tim Lopez did say that Murray told him he planned on using them overseas.

Thank you
 
I forgot something, peack concentration of oral lorazepam is reached after 60 + minutes of the dose , so brace yourself for a totaly new story from the defence to explain that

Does anyone here remember what Chernoff exact words regarding lorazepam were at the opening statement?

That tox findings did not show (or test??) lorazepam in the stomach content because that would not help people's case,said Chernoff.
That tests showed lorazepam levels were 4 times higher than in the rest... (mentioned 8 pills of 2 mg each)
That he swallowed 8 pills without Murray knowing, then CM gave 25mg of propofol, then left, then self-dose of propofol...
 
That tox findings did not show (or test??) lorazepam in the stomach content because that would not help people's case,said Chernoff.
That tests showed lorazepam levels were 4 times higher than in the rest... (mentioned 8 pills of 2 mg each)
That he swallowed 8 pills without Murray knowing, then CM gave 25mg of propofol, then left, then self-dose of propofol...

As horrible as it is, guess I'll have to go back and read the AR again? I thought it said no pills were found in Michael's stomach contents. I mean, visually? So, is Chernoff postulating that Michael took them EARLIER? Because they'd take some time to metabolize, right? And also, where is documentation of what medications were found WHERE? Is that info in the AR? Anyone know? If the lorazepam was only in the bathroom, and Michael had a condom catheter, then his going into the bathroom to take pills is . . . almost impossible? And therefore, only Murray could have given the high dose of lorazepam?
 
Better to wait till the experts testify but as far as I remember in the pre-trial hearing of 29th August (or 25th) defense talked about new tests carrried out by them (urine and stom.).

I'm sure prosecution experts will be ready for everything.
 
As horrible as it is, guess I'll have to go back and read the AR again? I thought it said no pills were found in Michael's stomach contents. I mean, visually? So, is Chernoff postulating that Michael took them EARLIER? Because they'd take some time to metabolize, right? And also, where is documentation of what medications were found WHERE? Is that info in the AR? Anyone know? If the lorazepam was only in the bathroom, and Michael had a condom catheter, then his going into the bathroom to take pills is . . . almost impossible? And therefore, only Murray could have given the high dose of lorazepam?

Yes that's what Chernoff is saying. Now there must be a reason why the coroner said "injection" and "homicide". We'll have to wait. And I think it's possible to walk with a condom catheter, it just doesn't make sense. Why would he have a catheter on in the 1st place ? Why was there a urine jug with urine in it in the room ? Most logical answer (to me) : MJ was NOT awake.

EDIT so MJ didn't go to the bathroom to relieve himself, but did go to the bathroom to get 8 pills of lorazepam ?
 
Yes that's what Chernoff is saying. Now there must be a reason why the coroner said "injection" and "homicide". We'll have to wait. And I think it's possible to walk with a condom catheter, it just doesn't make sense. Why would he have a catheter on in the 1st place ? Why was there a urine jug with urine in it in the room ? Most logical answer (to me) : MJ was NOT awake.

EDIT so MJ didn't go to the bathroom to relieve himself, but did go to the bathroom to get 8 pills of lorazepam ?

Right. But the defense will have to put on their case. At this point, I can't imagine what they will possibly SAY? Juries tend to be "common sense" based, and so far, I've seen no possible "sense" to Murray's actions, at all.
 
Back
Top