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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Arklove said:
Well, the thing is, I think the mass majority of opinion is that these songs shouldn't have been released in the first place, regardless of anyone's beliefs in the authenticity of the vocals. Putting that aside, I think we can pretty much all agree that these songs caused more controversy that was necessary and the vocals, even if they were Michael, do NOT represent his legacy to the degree of which it deserves. They shouldn't have been released the minute ANYONE was doubtful of the authenticity or the fact that the songs had to be tested in the first place...Just for those reasons alone, the community could have taken action if we all banded together....Just like with any other protest we've made (Cirque, tribute, Aaron Carter issue, etc...)

I guess people still want Cascio tracks to be released in the future and don't see the issue at hand...I think that's sad ...
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That's so right. But fans just wanted new material so badly they even enjoyed Cascio.
 
ivy said:
you talked about all those evidence, jurors, truth not prevailing and so on and so on. the only reason that I mentioned Katherine is such things do not apply to probate court. they had something at their disposal that was solely based on the "beneficiary" of the estate not wanting a certain thing to happen, they didn't even use that.

With that reality I find the argument of it's hard to win against corporations with evidence as an excuse. they had an alternative that didn't require all of that and they still didn't use it.

If we are talking about "actions", Jackson's non action also has be discussed as well.
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I don't know if you read my posts at all, but I never talked about that. All I did is drew your attention to the fact that for slightest argument you use "in court of law" expression.
 
Even if "swift action" was taken by MJJC, I highly doubt it would change the outcome. The album was targeted to the general audience, not hardcore fans. Also, ivy is right. The community was and remain is too divided on the Cascio tracks. Many don't hear the difference. Fans will never be on the same page. That's why it's so challenging to organize a collective effort. We all have tried before, haven't we?
 
love is magical said:
Even if "swift action" was taken by MJJC, I highly doubt it would change the outcome. The album was targeted to the general audience, not hardcore fans. Also, ivy is right. The community was and remain is too divided on the Cascio tracks. Many don't hear the difference. Fans will never be on the same page. That's why it's so challenging to organize a collective effort. We all have tried before, haven't we?
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Nobody ever claimed that the fans are not divided, so that goes without saying, otherwise we wouldn't have this thread. The criticism is directed to the fact that when we're divided instead of showing support to each other and act as one, we throw stones at each other. For example, I've never seen a single believer even try to trust the doubter rather than the official stand on those songs.

If there are so many doubts something is obviously wrong. How can believers enjoy those songs when there is more than the half of the community complaining about them?

If we acted as one, wrote all together letters relentlessly to show us proof it is Michael, to pressure the Estate or SONY the way they pressure us, the believers would be happy to show the doubters that they were right and the doubters would be relieved to know it's Michael. So far we had nada and the believers feel alright with the situation.

I am sorry but that's not doing any kind of action. Instead the believers constantly repeat to the half of the community to go to court if we're not happy. In other words it's the same as if they said "go to hell."
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Nobody ever claimed that the fans are not divided, so that goes without saying, otherwise we wouldn't have this thread. The criticism is directed to the fact that when we're divided instead of showing support to each other and act as one, we throw stones at each other. For example, I've never seen a single believer even try to trust the doubter rather than the official stand on those songs.
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Well, there are some believers, or former believers, who are empathetic. But, I totally understand your point. The doubters have been perceived negatively. We've been called delusional, illogical, trouble makers, etc. Although this thread has been moved to this sub-forum for such a long time, I still don't agree with the decision and think this helps with the stereotyping.

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
If there are so many doubts something is obviously wrong. How can believers enjoy those songs when there is more than the half of the community complaining about them?

If we acted as one, wrote all together letters relentlessly to show us proof it is Michael, to pressure the Estate or SONY the way they pressure us, the believers would be happy to show the doubters that they were right and the doubters would be relieved to know it's Michael. So far we had nada and the believers feel alright with the situation.

I am sorry but that's not doing any kind of action. Instead the believers constantly repeat to the half of the community to go to court if we're not happy. In other words it's the same as if they said "go to hell."
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In order for all of us to act as one, we need to have a commonground. As of now, we don't. Call me pessimistic. I don't think we'll ever find a commonground regarding Michael's legacy. Fans will not see things eye-to-eye. Some think it's important for Michael to have another #1 album. Some think it's important to have a danceable club song. Some think it's important to chart. Some think it's important to have "new" material to prolong Michael's legacy. Or, we have people like me who think Michael is above all those and quality should come first.

Also, people do not like to engage in action that conflicts with the Estate, as people think the Estate is Michael now.
 
love is magical said:
Well, there are some believers, or former believers, who are empathetic. But, I totally understand your point. The doubters have been perceived negatively. We've been called delusional, illogical, trouble makers, etc. Although this thread has been moved to this sub-forum for such a long time, I still don't agree with the decision and think this helps with the stereotyping.
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I agree this thread shouldn't be in this section. It should be in the main section as it is an ongoing issue that affects Mj's artistic legacy, a legacy that is forever tainted with these songs. And will continue to be tainted as more are released. It certainly shouldn't be with a hoax thread that has no place on any reputable MJ board.
 
And we're not gonna get much action done shoved into the controversy section where people don't even wanna touch with a ten-foot pole...
 
Arklove said:
And we're not gonna get much action done shoved into the controversy section where people don't even wanna touch with a ten-foot pole...
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It's always been about sweeping it under the rug. When more fake songs are released, people will wonder why.
 
love is magical said:
Well, there are some believers, or former believers, who are empathetic. But, I totally understand your point. The doubters have been perceived negatively. We've been called delusional, illogical, trouble makers, etc. Although this thread has been moved to this sub-forum for such a long time, I still don't agree with the decision and think this helps with the stereotyping.



In order for all of us to act as one, we need to have a commonground. As of now, we don't. Call me pessimistic. I don't think we'll ever find a commonground regarding Michael's legacy. Fans will not see things eye-to-eye. Some think it's important for Michael to have another #1 album. Some think it's important to have a danceable club song. Some think it's important to chart. Some think it's important to have "new" material to prolong Michael's legacy. Or, we have people like me who think Michael is above all those and quality should come first.

Also, people do not like to engage in action that conflicts with the Estate, as people think the Estate is Michael now.
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The common ground is Michael Jackson, but the believers just stick to what they believe is Michael. Fine, but one day when they'll hear in the future some other doubtful tracks, they'd better not complain as this lack of solidaity just opened the doors for further doubtful tracks be it by the Cascio or any other music clown messing with MJ's legacy. It'll be too late.
 
StellaJackson said:
I agree this thread shouldn't be in this section. It should be in the main section as it is an ongoing issue that affects Mj's artistic legacy, a legacy that is forever tainted with these songs. And will continue to be tainted as more are released. It certainly shouldn't be with a hoax thread that has no place on any reputable MJ board.
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Well we've been hidden from the public eye, i.e. SONY succeeded to put some pressure on fans to silence us. What is sad in all this is that instead of us pressuring them to show the true face of the songs, we got cornered here away from the public eye and half of the community instead of supporting us, they ridicule us by thinking that we are some kind of brainless conspiracy theorists and mockingly telling us to go to court to solve the problem.

Thanks sisters and brothers, MJ fans fellows, for your "friendly" advice, but you can flush it down the sewers together with the Cascio songs where they belong to. We need support for the sake of Michael Jackson legacy, not advice. MJ's legacy has been stained by this division because of the tracks, not because of us doubters. So, taking action such as "no release untill the slightest shadow of doubt has been removed" pressure would have been much more appreciated than giving us "flash news" advice. Back to Earth guys, back to reality. Michael hadn't forseen to use the slightest note of a single Cascio track fo This Is It show, and all of sudden we have three of the tracks on MJ's first posthumous album. Where is your sense of logic?


p.s. Stella, this is not addressed tro you, but to all of us.
 
Aniram said:
I think it's unfortunate MJJC can't take an official step to denounce the songs. I think it should be obvious if Michael's singing or not.
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This is what I find very dissapointing. Obviously it isn't Michael singing. An open letter denouncing the songs due to their controversy, without even bringing up the authenticity issue, would have been really good. Relegating the issue to this thread is essentially letting them get away with it. Treating doubters like trouble makers is quite ignorant when the real route of the problem is the inclusion of these songs in the first place. The remaining tracks are even worse, and I've no doubt they will be on another album. Michael's discography is forever tainted by these tracks and it will only get worse. When that happens, fans who supported these songs will only have themselves to blame. And saying we should go to court is also naiive. As if people like me have the time or money to go to court over this. I'd like for these so called believers to take one line from any Cascio song and find one line from any MJ song where he sounds like that. Oh wait, you can't.
 
kreen said:
... to your subjective ears.
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Nope, based on the overwheling evidence in the comparisons, the fact that the vocalist has none of Mj's trademarks yet has all Jason's trademarks and sounds 100% identical to Jason Cupeta.
 
Kreen, why did "Michael" pronounce "waiting" like "Wai'in" in the Cascio songs, when he has never pronounced it like that in his other songs?

Note that Jason pronounces "waiting" like "wai'in" in his own songs.
 
Pentum said:
Kreen, why did "Michael" pronounce "waiting" like "Wai'in" in the Cascio songs, when he has never pronounced it like that in his other songs?

Note that Jason pronounces "waiting" like "wai'in" in his own songs.
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Believers have never been able to answer this.
 
Pentum said:
Kreen, why did "Michael" pronounce "waiting" like "Wai'in" in the Cascio songs, when he has never pronounced it like that in his other songs?

Note that Jason pronounces "waiting" like "wai'in" in his own songs.
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StellaJackson said:
Believers have never been able to answer this.
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Would like all fans who believe it's Michael singing and are lurking :)D) to answer this question. Please??!!

Also, all singers have trademarks, so in the Cascio songs there also have to be Michael's trademarks (not Michael's added ad-libs). You must hear some? Where do you hear them and what exactly do you hear that convinces you it's Michael?
 
Chamife said:
Would like all fans who believe it's Michael singing and are lurking :)D) to answer this question. Please??!!

Also, all singers have trademarks, so in the Cascio songs there also have to be Michael's trademarks (not Michael's added ad-libs). You must hear some? Where do you hear them and what exactly do you hear that convinces you it's Michael?
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That's just it. None of Michael's recording trademarks are there. Not one. Yet the vocal tics of Cupeta are to be found in every song.
 
Believers should watch This Is It, then pause and listen to a Cascio song. Then go on with the movie, pause it again half way through and listen to another Cascio song. And so forth. Try to find fitting Cascio songs for where you are in the movie. This doesn't feel right at all. Especially the pronounciation discussed right now. It's a dead giveaway. It is a different person. If you don't want to listen to the timbre, at least - please - listen to the pronounciation.
 
StellaJackson said:
That's just it. None of Michael's recording trademarks are there. Not one. Yet the vocal tics of Cupeta are to be found in every song.
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Not to mention that one of the first things I noticed about the voice in the Cascio songs when I first listened to them is that it's a young voice, in his 20s or 30s...Not a man close to 50...
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
For example, I've never seen a single believer even try to trust the doubter rather than the official stand on those songs.
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except for a few people (that I chose not to name) have you seen any doubter to trust a single believer? About 99% of the time the response I get is "it's 100% not Michael/ definitely Malachi, it's a fact and everything believers say is an excuse and they can't be wrong". Sorry but there's no "trust" from majority (99%) of the doubters either.

and to be honest to me perhaps it's the main turn off in this debate.
 
ivy said:
except for a few people (that I chose not to name) have you seen any doubter to trust a single believer? About 99% of the time the response I get is "it's 100% not Michael/ definitely Malachi, it's a fact and everything believers say is an excuse and they can't be wrong". Sorry but there's no "trust" from majority (99%) of the doubters either.

and to be honest to me perhaps it's the main turn off in this debate.
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We've got nothing to trust them on because they haven't provided anything in the way of evidence to prove it is Michael. No logical explanation for any of the discrepencies, nothing to compare the vocals too, nothing that can explain every vocal trademark of Jason Cupeta on all these songs.
 
ivy said:
except for a few people (that I chose not to name) have you seen any doubter to trust a single believer? About 99% of the time the response I get is "it's 100% not Michael/ definitely Malachi, it's a fact and everything believers say is an excuse and they can't be wrong". Sorry but there's no "trust" from majority (99%) of the doubters either.

and to be honest to me perhaps it's the main turn off in this debate.
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I think you completely misunderstood what I was trying to explain. My argument was not focusing towards the belief or disbelief of the authenticity, but towards the fact that some fans feel that something is wrong and that we are experiencing a total lack of bond.

I never asked in my argument any believer to change their mind, but to bond together with the doubters and to pressure and demand proof from SONY/Estate that those tracks are indeed authentic. In the process the believers would have nothing to lose. On the contary, they'd prove to the doubters that they were right and the doubters would be relieved to see that on those tracks it is indeed MJ.

But so far we've been said to go to court on our own. All I said was thanks but we don't need such advice, because it sounds more like "go to hell" than as a helpful piece of advice.

So, again, I am repeating, you believers can keep your belief, nobody's asking you to change it. We doubters are asking to change ours, but nobody seems to be able to do so. Isn't that somehow strange?
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I think you completely misunderstood what I was trying to explain. My argument was not focusing towards the belief or disbelief of the authenticity, but towards the fact that some fans feel that something is wrong and that we are experiencing a total lack of bond.

I never asked in my argument any believer to change their mind, but to bond together with the doubters and to pressure and demand proof from SONY/Estate that those tracks are indeed authentic. In the process the believers would have nothing to lose. On the contary, they'd prove to the doubters that they were right and the doubters would be relieved to see that on those tracks it is indeed MJ.

But so far we've been said to go to court on our own. All I said was thanks but we don't need such advice, because it sounds more like "go to hell" than it helps the cause.

So, again, I am repeating, you believers can keep your belief, nobody's asking you to change it. We doubters are asking to change ours, but nobody seems to be able to do so. Isn't that somehow strange?
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I want to be proven wrong more than anything. The last thing I want is for people that stood by Michael throughout his life to have stabbed him in the back. I don't want the songs to be fake. Although I'd be humbled, I would be so relieved to find out it is Michael. But I can't deny what I hear. And the person who I clearly hear singing on those songs is Jason Cupeta. I think some people just bury their head in the sand and don't want to admit the truth. Well when more fakes are released and there is another flop album, they won't get any sympathy from me.
 
StellaJackson said:
I want to be proven wrong more than anything. The last thing I want is for people that stood by Michael throughout his life to have stabbed him in the back. I don't want the songs to be fake. Although I'd be humbled, I would be so relieved to find out it is Michael. But I can't deny what I hear. And the person who I clearly hear singing on those songs is Jason Cupeta. I think some people just bury their head in the sand and don't want to admit the truth. Well when more fakes are released and there is another flop album, they won't get any sympathy from me.
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My fear is that in the future some so called "friends" will release some other songs, projects or instrumentals without any proof that it is MJ's composition and sell them as if they were MJ's "work". The Estate together with SONY were quite easy going with those Cascio tracks without even asking for hard evidence that MJ was involved. The forensic analyses are not considered as strong evidence. They'e just an opinion and we don't even know of what actually nor why.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
My fear is that in the future some so called "friends" will release some other songs, projects or instrumentals without any proof that it is MJ's composition and sell them as if they were MJ's "work". The Estate together with SONY were quite easy going with those Cascio tracks without even asking for hard evidence that MJ was involved. The forensic analyses are not considered as strong evidence. They'e just an opinion and we don't even know of what actually nor why.
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To be honest, I don't think any such tests ever took place. I believe the extent of their investigation was a couple of phone calls to Thad Nauden and that listening session, which was anything but unanimous.
 
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