Michael - The Great Album Debate

Milli Vanilli is actually quite different and then also similar. At that time album credits weren't this much established, it was common practice in Europe to have beautiful people to be the frontman. Rob and Fab was actually credited as "dancer" on the Europe releases.

The only problem happened when their album got released in USA with a vocal credits. And they didn't get away with it. A housewife sued them and Arista settled the lawsuit by offering money back to everyone who bought Milli Vannili albums and / or attended their concerts.

The only reason Millia Vanilli got caught is because they confessed.

And John Branca publicly defended their crime with this ridiculous comment: "I think these lawsuits are a joke and most people in the industry perceive them as such," Branca said. "Do moviegoers who paid money to see the movie 'Flashdance' deserve a refund because somebody else did Jennifer Beale's dancing? In my opinion, such a settlement is not likely to affect future cases."

He was counsel to Milli Vanilli.

I think a stunt double in one scene of a film is a bit different to deliberately defrauding consumers by using imposter vocalists.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-10/entertainment/ca-455_1_milli-vanilli/2
 
The only reason Millia Vanilli got caught is because they confessed.

no Milli vanilli's confession just made it easier to prosecute.

And John Branca publicly defended their crime with this ridiculous comment: "I think these lawsuits are a joke and most people in the industry perceive them as such," Branca said. "Do moviegoers who paid money to see the movie 'Flashdance' deserve a refund because somebody else did Jennifer Beale's dancing? In my opinion, such a settlement is not likely to affect future cases."

He was counsel to Milli Vanilli.

I think a stunt double in one scene of a film is a bit different to deliberately defrauding consumers by using imposter vocalists.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-10/entertainment/ca-455_1_milli-vanilli/2

he's talking about the lawsuit which the settlement entitled the refund of the album money. Honestly suing for $5 to $10 bucks is a joke. plus as I also pointed out there was no frauding when they were only credited as a "dancer". It only became a fraud when Arista credited them as "vocals"

Plus you need to consider his statement at the time period he said it. Up until Martha Washington lawsuit there was no requirement to give back vocals any credit and it was quite common practice. Quite has changed since that time period and after Milli Vannili, Martha Washington and even Paula Abdul lawsuits.
 
no Milli vanilli's confession just made it easier to prosecute.



he's talking about the lawsuit which the settlement entitled the refund of the album money. Honestly suing for $5 to $10 bucks is a joke. plus as I also pointed out there was no frauding when they were only credited as a "dancer". It only became a fraud when Arista credited them as "vocals"

Plus you need to consider his statement at the time period he said it. Up until Martha Washington lawsuit there was no requirement to give back vocals any credit and it was quite common practice. Quite has changed since that time period and after Milli Vannili, Martha Washington and even Paula Abdul lawsuits.

Nothing was exposed about Milli Vaniili until their manager and they confessed. There were rumours and speculation, mostly due to their poor English when giving interviews, but it was the confession that kicked everything off. If they hadn't confessed they may have still been exposed at some point but the press conference was the turning point.

It's right there were no credits on the European versions of their albums. It was the USA releases that credited Rob and Fab as lead vocalists when they weren't, which was fraud. Branca wasn't referring to the European releases but the USA ones. He was wrong. There is no comparison between Milli Vanilli and the example he used. He was using it to defend the practice of defrauding the public. Which is what Milli Vanilli and their management did. That is why they had to return their Grammy award.

I don't think it's silly to sue for that amount of money. It's about the principle. And people have a right to have their money refunded.
 
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I don't think it's silly to sue for that amount of money. It's about the principle. And people have a right to have their money refunded.

principle is another concept but monetary is another thing. If your damages is the amount you paid for the album - $10- and if you need at least $400 just to file the lawsuit some - actually many- might argue that it's not worth it.

Furthermore look back to the article you referenced, 10 million albums sold but 49 complaints and 100 refund requests. Arista immediately agreed to refund settlement because they knew the refund requests will be minimal - around 5% -10%- as for many people finding a proof of purchase and mailing it for a $10 refund is a hassle.

From consequences point of view, music industry didn't take this lawsuit seriously. But as I said before Milli Vanilli, Martha Washington and Paula Abdul lawsuits all helped to improve the album credits issues and gave and protected a lot more rights to the consumers as well as musicians.
 
Ahhh, im not too familar with Milli Vanilla but ive heard about them, as for the Cascio tracks being offically released...I think they may...IF they believe they have evidence to back up their claim. Which they need now.

The other option is to let this story die, never mention the tracks again. and just let them leak in good time and ride out the heat.
 
Ahhh, im not too familar with Milli Vanilla but ive heard about them, as for the Cascio tracks being offically released...I think they may...IF they believe they have evidence to back up their claim. Which they need now.

The other option is to let this story die, never mention the tracks again. and just let them leak in good time and ride out the heat.

If there were any evidence we would have seen it by now. There is nothing.
 
The Estate knows our issues with the tracks...I doubt they'd release the rest of the Cascio songs....On the press release of the BAD25 release, they mentioned about the unreleased songs/demos 'Nothing has been changed'.....So, if they release the rest of the Cascio songs sounding the way they do, then they'd have to again explain away with a myriad of excuses (actually saying nothing), just WHY the sound the way they do...

Then again, maybe they will anyway :doh:
 
Milli Vanilli's vocals were never theirs from the beginning, so no one expected they didn't sing themselves, so it was quit a shocker. Milli Vanilli was Milli Vanillie and we knew no better than the vocals were from Rob and Fab.
Maybe it's true that it was done more often, but I can't recall one other band or singer who did that (maybe some bands used beautiful female instrumentalists for the beautiful picture, but like I said, I can't recall they used fake singers)


Something quite different: You know the game songpop on Facebook? I challenge you all!!

http://songpop.fm/

eta: forgot about this one:

[youtube]k2vWQSgR8H0[/youtube]

:D

Epic
 
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Stella, the old tagline has been "We know what you did last summer [2010]" for almost 2 years, your recent "Jason on vacation" theories from Spring 2010 are inconsistent and contradicting your camp's vigorous claims. If you guys google and make up things based on random happenings, you won't ever achieve something. You will only feel frustrated because you convince yourself you would have "found out/exposed" - which you have not.

Milli Vanilli has been exposed, no public statement from them was needed for a lawsuit, there was public evidence.

"Fall In Love" is not any different than the other 11 tracks. You sound like a broken record, not respecting other fans' opinions due to your exaggerated opinion of yourself and downplaying any and all other results.

Eddie has a such big ego, thus he talked crap about the songs for other reasons than what you have been assuming for so long. I wouldn't mind if fans manage to sue them for the fabrication of the songs. That's what they are indeed afraid of.


I've been analyzing the fans' feelings about these unusual (fabricated) recordings since their release.
I am well aware of all different opinions, theories about their origin etc.

I do agree with all of you that Eddie Cascio and James Porte are not respecting the fans' wishes to tell the truth about these recordings. Eddie Cascio has a big ego and has been telling crap about them. No word that the songs were originally written with his brother Frank for another artist named "James Porte" (Bobby Ewing).

Frank Cascio has been avoiding all questions regarding them as well (just recently evident in the interview series published on MJDATABANK). Yet he was an original songwriter of some of the songs but claims to know nothing about them. Yet screenshots of his iTunes collection with the James Porte demos surfaced on the internet.

James Porte has never revealed himself in the public, yet he's heavily featured in all of these recordings (the credit as "background vocalist" is not the complete truth).
James Porte allegedly doesn't want to give an interview.


I have especially paid attention to the "Jason Malachi" (Jason Edward Cupeta) conspiracy theories, the many voice comparison clips.
I can understand why certain people always compare the voice with Jason (some have been obsessed with this dude because he has been bugging fans with songs like "Mamacita". I was among the first to state on all forums that these songs are not Michael, so I am quite familiar with his voice).

It's hard to explain but I think I do get what they are pointing out.
However they went so far with their theories that they have claimed so many things that have all been debunked one after another. They also started to accuse too many people to be a part of a big, big conspiracy (and we all know, big conspiracies never last long):
Frank DiLeo (R.I.P.), Roger Friedman (infamous gossip journalist), Howard Weitzmann (a lawyer for the MJ Estate), Teddy Riley (finisher on 3 Cascio tracks: Monster, Breaking News, Burn 2Nite), Stuart Brawley (engineer on INVINCIBLE and worked with Angelikson Productions)
and many more

This goes as far as labeling Teddy Riley a "multi-instrumentalist" with the tag line "Just ask my daughter's face"
These fans are not just obsessed with Malachi, they turned into extremists and are attacking all and any who is not anti-Cascio, mainly other fellow fans. They do this because they have lost respect, they don't achieve anything, they are only left mourning.


They are also claiming such nonsense that the MJ Estate would read the blog from Roger Friedman (411showbiz) and buy the Cascio songs based on his blog entries - when in fact Roger got his info from a source within the Estate (he has already had a source within MJ's inner circle since 2008)

After analyzing WHO these people with such claims are and WHY they are so aggressive, I realized that many of them have a past of attacking/disrespecting/bullying other fans.



However on one point - as said above - I agree on: We need answers.
They released the tracks, Eddie talked crap about them, he said things that do not make sense. They have a responsibility to tell the truth.

My understanding is that they are really afraid of a consumer fraud case - not for hiring a voice impersonator (as so far no such evidence has emerged) but for the pure FABRICATION of the songs. The use of copy-pasted vocals from Michael's archives, the synthetic creation of sentences and James Porte's vocals mixed together with Michael's at times and the lack of any evidence they might present to the fans combined with the fact that the songs were sold as authentic Michael Jackson recordings.

The MICHAEL album has a disclaimer on the back that says "recently completed". OK, that does apply to all tracks, "Behind The Mask" or "Much Too Soon" have also not much to do with Michael's original vision.

BUT the Cascio songs are a pure FABRICATION. There are so many cuts and oddly layered vocals in an attempt to blend 2 voices that definitely qualify for fraud - they have failed to deliver sufficient explanation for these facts.
Similar to the Milli Vanilli case, consumers (=us) believed to buy authentic recordings of Michael, including those recorded with Eddie.
Yet they did not release authentic recordings, the music is all new and almost nothing sounds like Eddie could have recorded it in his basement.


So far there does not seem to be a consumer fraud case.

Eddie is rich, he doesn't have a normal life like us. He said he did it "for the fans".
That's BS if you ask me. They don't really care about us. He's such a big ego.

quote of Eddie: "KYHU is the new Keep The Faith"
Are you kidding, Eddie?
The song - as all 12 songs - is incomplete and average mainstream pop. Eddie's production skills are poor.
The song - as most of them - does not have a climax, they added a choir to cover up the fact they had not many vocals.
Only guide vocals - that are heavily controversial - pasted together with James Porte's original singing.
No power like on the gospel classic "Keep The Faith" where MJ is giving his all.
It's no wonder Eddie looks like an idiot with such comments.


The MJ Estate cancelled "Keep Your Head Up" and "Monster" singles (for both further mixes were already done) and issued a statement regarding the controversy with their evidence not made public - which is a standard procedure. Fans have been wondering why they don't release it? Well, as I've just stated above, they would then still qualify for fraud due to the FABRICATION which they don't want to talk about.


And as we speak: 3 CASCIO songs are still available for purchase (digitally and physically).
Consumers have a right to be provided correct information. They are still selling them as normal recordings without proper background info.


So let me repeat: forget the Malachi thing, it's a dead end. Focus on the FABRICATION instead. That's your way to show them that you don't want them to get away with it.

Only a due law suit and then due answers will solve it all. Nothing else.
 
My understanding is that they are really afraid of a consumer fraud case - not for hiring a voice impersonator (as so far no such evidence has emerged) but for the pure FABRICATION of the songs. The use of copy-pasted vocals from Michael's archives, the synthetic creation of sentences and James Porte's vocals mixed together with Michael's at times

BUT the Cascio songs are a pure FABRICATION. There are so many cuts and oddly layered vocals in an attempt to blend 2 voices that definitely qualify for fraud - they have failed to deliver sufficient explanation for these facts.

that might not be fraud either - based on Paula Abdul lawsuit example.

Yvette Marine was hired as a studio musician. She recorded the vocals. Paula Abdul recorded her own vocals. Yvette Marine was given background credit. Yvette Marine sued claiming her vocals were used on the leads without credit. During trial L.A. Reid admitted that her complete take was layered with Paula Abdul's - in other words a composite lead was created and the claim was they misrepresented the composite to the public as one voice.

She lost the lawsuit as the jury did not think it was misrepresentation or fraud because Paula Abdul's vocals were there and Yvette Marine's vocals existence was disclosed by the background vocals credit.
 
I do agree with Korgnex re: fabrication issue...It was never about Jason Malachi to me...(Sounds the most like him, but that's besides the point)....No matter what, these songs were fabricated...No fan should be satisfied with that...
 
They were sped up, they have copy and pastes, mysterious vocals, reliable info about them is scare, music was altered....it's not even a MJ song any more....
 
They were fabrications to me, for one reason. They sucked. And that isn't the Michael Jackson way. Never was. Even his 'worst' songs had magic that was and is unmistakably his. That's what i stood by from the beginning, and it's turning out to be true. To me, if Michael's hands aren't the last hands to touch it, it's a fabrication. That's what I think of the latest edition of 'Hold My Hand'. The two thousand eight version, which was 'unreleased', was authentic Michael. I still have that, even with a blip in the recording, and i think it's classic. I prefer that blip over a seamless fake version such as is on the Michael Album. Even if his voice is on a song, Akon 'finished' it. That made it fake to me. Then many people tried to make a video... post mortem...that just added to the fakery.
 
I wonder if there will be a surge of reinterest in Michael Jackson here in the next couple years. I think that these tracks will have to be returned to and analyzed more in-depth by 'mainstream' journalists or whatever, where more questions will be raised. Because I honestly can't see these going down in history as authentic Michael Jackson songs. It could go on for a long time, of course, but in the long run I just have a strong feeling that it's all going to come out.
 
There are many factors involved in the controversy surrounding Michael album.If you keep your eyes on “Jason Malachi impersonating Michael Jackson” theory,you will never find your way out.FACT is:the lead vocal of Cascio tracks is from Michael Jackson,James Porte is the backup singer,Jason Malachi didn’t sing a single note on Michael album.
@144,000
From This Is It to all the songs on Michael album,they are all fake according to your standards.Well,you are right to an extent.
 
Paw;3693469 said:
There are many factors involved in the controversy surrounding Michael album.If you keep your eyes on “Jason Malachi impersonating Michael Jackson” theory,you will never find your way out.FACT is:the lead vocal of Cascio tracks is from Michael Jackson,James Porte is the backup singer,Jason Malachi didn’t sing a single note on Michael album.
@144,000
From This Is It to all the songs on Michael album,they are all fake according to your standards.Well,you are right to an extent.

It is absolutely not a fact that Michael is the lead vocalist. There is no evidence whatsoever to back that up. The most obvious thing of all when it comes to these songs is that it is Jason Malachi on lead vocals. It is his vibrato, accent, pronunciation, falsetto etc all over these tracks. Michael never sounded like that. He sounded like himself just before and just after "recording" with Eddie, so why did he suddenly sound like a shitty known impersonator for these twelve untraceable songs in between? Every MJ nuance is absent from these recordings. They have failed to provide anything to suggest that Michael had anything to do with these songs. Not one single outtake or audio clip of him talking, which considering the huge amount of material they recorded, should exist. There are plenty of reasons to, at the very least, suspect the involvement of Jason Malachi.

I personally don't have a problem with songs being finished post-humously, as long as that is made clear to the consumer. Slave To The Rhythm had the music completely redone by Tricky Stewart and sounds great. What I do have a problem with is people like Cascio and Porte using an impersonator to record songs that Michael wasn't able to, or didn't want to.
 
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Slave does.sound great. But the mess.ups of Hollywood, Cascio, etc etc aren't acceptable. This is It is probably the best posthumous.project.....so far
 
I personally don't have a problem with songs being finished post-humously, as long as that is made clear to the consumer. Slave To The Rhythm had the music completely redone by Tricky Stewart and sounds great. What I do have a problem with is people like Cascio and Porte using an impersonator to record songs that Michael wasn't able to, or didn't want to.
I do have a problem with that. I am fine with producers finishing or changing tracks as long as they are to be included as b-sides or remixes. But if I had the choice I would much prefer to hear what Michael left behind. I do not want the producer to take artistic liberty and just change things as they see fit. Some producers just make of it whatever they happen to want without considering MJ's vision (Teddy Riley on Hollywood, Tricky Stewart with Slave - who talked about wanting to 'completely destroy' the original production). Others seem to have changed relatively little (such as Neff-U) and done so with the sole purpose of finishing the track, trying to realize a final product as close to MJ's vision as possible. Though I respect their efforts, I would still prefer to hear what Michael left behind, even if it is very raw and unfinished.

But although I am not completely satisfied with that situation, it is on a totally different level than what happened with the Cascio tracks. If we would have gotten an album with Slave To The Rhythm, DYKWYCA and Blue Gangsta instead of the Cascio tracks, I might have had some minor criticisms about the way the tracks were produced, but would have definitely enjoyed the overall experience. There would not have been a major controversy like there turned out to be.
 
I want to echo Arky's point. Whether Jason Malachi was involved is besides the point. For me, the issue has always been song fabrication. I'm disgusted by the thought that Michael Jackson can easily be replaced by "studio magic", that they think they can cook up some Michael Jackson songs by using his supposed guide vocals, mixed with James Porte and layered with Michael's old vocal.

It really is slap in Michael's face.
 
Paw;3693469 said:
There are many factors involved in the controversy surrounding Michael album.If you keep your eyes on “Jason Malachi impersonating Michael Jackson” theory,you will never find your way out.FACT is:the lead vocal of Cascio tracks is from Michael Jackson,James Porte is the backup singer,Jason Malachi didn’t sing a single note on Michael album.
@144,000
From This Is It to all the songs on Michael album,they are all fake according to your standards.Well,you are right to an extent.


i like 'This Is It', the single. I understand there are several versions of that..most likely someone can find the one they like..the one i like is such a skeleton piece that it sounds like nobody hardly did anything to it, since Michael left us. Hard to mess it up if it's just Michael and a solo instrument and the option of what sounds like a very faint sound of his brothers backing him or nobody backing him at all.
 
“This Is It” was finished by John McClain just like “Hold My Hand” was finished by Akon,so they are both undoubtedly “fake”.Just kidding.
Michael never stop writing songs,but many of which are unfinished or just demos.If some of them were chosen to be released on an album,they would be finished by others or released the way Michael left behind.The only “real” song we got is “Don’t Be Messin’ Around” (Demo) since June 25th,2009.DBMA is an interesting demo which is appropriate for fans’ collection,but not to new generation’s taste.It’s not even up to Michael Jackson the perfectionist’s releasable standard.So we will inevitably depend on other producers finishing many of Michael’s posthumous songs.
I can understand that fans want to experience music the way Michael left behind.They want Michael’s vision.Now the question is….what is Michael’s vision?Anybody knows of it?I believe nobody knows it better than Michael himself.He said Michael wanted it this way,she said Michael liked that more.They are nothing but our imagination.Michael would keep on polishing his music if you never set the deadline.You thought some song was finished and reflected Michael’s vision,but Michael might change it thoroughly himself.So I believe Michael’s vision issue is an unanswerable question.
 
I don't care about remixed and updated versions of songs as long as we get a collection of original demos in the future as well. I often find I really enjoy the polished/remixed versions and sometimes I really like the demo(I will always prefer TGIM solo demo over the album). In my opinion all of Michael's music including unreleased demos, acapellas, remixes, etc. should be released for sale to the public. I feel he is a very educational figure and for that purpose and historical reasons, we should be able to get more insight on him, at least into his artistic process because I don't feel or really care about prying into his personal life. But John Lennon comes to mind, there about like 30 cds of unreleased material before his death from him. Prince isn't even dead yet and the amount of material he has is mind-blowing, it's going to be more shocking when he actually passes and like 144,000 songs are released!

I guess my point is, it's early in the morning here still, but I think it should all come out... They should start a chronological release project and start releasing all the childhood recordings, then the teens/Jacksons, Off The Wall/Thriller/80s, Dangerous/HIStory/90s, Invincible/This Is It.

Michael's vision is still constantly evolving, I think, because he rubbed it off onto so many people and I think that was on of his main goals with his music and message and one that he accomplished very well. He was such a great person and I think every generation should be able to educate themselves in-depth on his music and who he was. Of course, we don't need EVERY demo and all that to study him, but I guess the obsessed fan side of me would love it, and I really do find it beneficial. I think you can learn a lot about the art and craft of songwriting by listening to early demos and the process that it took for a song to get where it ended up.

Anyway, I'm kind of rambling, but I think an educational and historical look at Michael's legacy and vision would really benefit for the truth to come out, as well, because it would be total transparency. And like I said, I don't want to violate Michael's privacy like where people just ransack his homes and journals to find a bit of info to scan and sell and so we can know more about him, I just want to be able to study everything about his work and his music. I think it would benefit society, but maybe Michael didn't want that. If I were Michael, I would have written down that I want all of my music released(not for free) to the public, all of the money to go to my children and those who were closest to me. I'm not, though, no idea what was going on inside of his head!

tl;dr - I just hope more of his archived music gets released and the truth eventually comes out.
 
I want to echo Arky's point. Whether Jason Malachi was involved is besides the point. For me, the issue has always been song fabrication. I'm disgusted by the thought that Michael Jackson can easily be replaced by "studio magic", that they think they can cook up some Michael Jackson songs by using his supposed guide vocals, mixed with James Porte and layered with Michael's old vocal.

It really is slap in Michael's face.

I don't think it is besides the point if Jason was used. There is a big difference between an imposters vocals and guide vocals. Guide vocals are still Michael. An imposters vocals are illegal. It is fraud.

This whole guide vocal thing makes no sense. When was there ever a guide vocal or demo where Michael decided to completely change every aspect of his voice until it is a perfect match for Jason Malachi? It's clear that the vocalist in these songs is trying very hard to sing how he does. These are full out vocals from an underpowered vocalist. They are not guide vocals.
 
^^ Well, the thing is...If we keep saying 'Jason Malachi, Jason Malachi'...some people just don't hear that it's him...Can't force anyone to hear that....BUT, it's much more easier to point out the obvious fabrication that these songs are made out of...No one can really deny that...But people can deny that it's Jason...Now, I do agree that I think it's him...But the point is, it doesn't really matter WHO it is, what matters is that it's NOT MJ...and I mean that in a way that it is either an imposter or completely robotically made songs that can never be called MJ songs or even referenced as him singing...Because as it stands, it's NOT MJ, no matter which way you look at it...Judging from Michael's work, this is definitely not the way he wanted these songs to sound, the voice, the tacky production and all the cut and pastes...We need to find a common ground among all fans...and I think that's a good start to all agree on...
 
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