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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Arklove said:
some people just don't hear that it's him...Can't force anyone to hear that
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There is one mistake in your sentence: "Some" people do NOT agree with that claim. You can't force anyone to agree with that claim.
 
Korgnex said:
There is one mistake in your sentence: "Some" people do NOT agree with that claim. You can't force anyone to agree with that claim.
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Well, yeah that's what I said....Can't force people to hear him, or agree that it's him...I'm just pointing out that a lot of doubters try to force the opinion that it's Jason, which doesn't help our case at all, obviously.....But most can't deny that the songs were fabricated...They'd be in denial otherwise...:scratch:
 
'Finish' Michael's work by today's hottest producers: fine (not my personal preference, but alas. Can't sell demo's, they don't make $)

Mixes of Michael's songs by today's hottest Dj's: fine too

Releasing songs that Michael had nothing to do with and sell/label them as his work: unacceptable
 
Chamife said:
Can't sell demo's, they don't make $
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Actually they do, if they're targeted to the right people (hardcore fans) but since that's not happening and the demos aren't the main product on a release that targets the general public, they should put the demos on a damn 2nd f**cking disc.

That way the general public is happy to get new MJ songs without caring about demos and the hardcore fans are happy cause they get the demos and the re-worked tracks (if they care about them or not). The 2 disc collectors editions could be an extra 10-20-30 bucks or whatever (I'd personally be willing to pay extra for the demos and I imagine many other MJ fans would too) and I'd be a win-win-win for the Estate/Sony, the general public and the MJ fans...

Seriously MJ Estate and Sony, this isn't rocket science...

I'm having a hard time believing that whenever they have a meeting to discuss how they're gonna do a new album and somebody asks "so, how we gonna do this?" everybody in there is like...

2ezo6ew.gif
 
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T.N.A. said:
Actually they do, if they're targeted to the right people (hardcore fans) but since that's not happening and the demos aren't the main product on a release that targets the general public, they should put the demos on a damn 2nd f**cking disc.

That way the general public is happy to get new MJ songs without caring about demos and the hardcore fans are happy cause they get the demos and the re-worked tracks (if they care about them or not). The 2 disc collectors editions could be an extra 10-20-30 bucks or whatever (I'd personally be willing to pay extra for the demos and I imagine many other MJ fans would too) and I'd be a win-win-win for the Estate/Sony, the general public and the MJ fans...

Seriously MJ Estate and Sony, this isn't rocket science...

I'm having a hard time believing that whenever they have a meeting to discuss how they're gonna do a new album and somebody asks "so, how we gonna do this?" everybody in there is like...

2ezo6ew.gif
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^^hahaha..!!

I have a feeling they think a second disc with demo's or interesting stuff for hardcore fans only doesn't sell too well. Maybe too little hardcore fans overall?

Don't know about sales from similar special (demo, rare audio) discs from other artists?

I personally am not interested in remixes. I can listen to them and have an opinion, but I realize it's just someone elses work. And when I hear a 'finished' Michael song, the only parts I enjoy are Michael's voice and the melody and the thought behind the song. And when it's done with real love and respect for the artist/person Michael Jackson (which I feel when I hear Will.I.am or Ron Feemster or the guitarist Tommy Emmanuel on 'Much too soon' speak for example), I just can't have problems with it.

Michael's gone and that's how it works. I pick and listen to what I like and ignore the rest. I also realize that not everyone feels this way and I can understand that. It really depends on what kind of fan you are, I think..:unsure:. We're all different fans.

But I do have problems (eufemism...:puke:) with people who's ego's are too big for their own good and don't know their limits (and talk BS about how eager Michael was to let his fans hear these 'pearls', that he worked so hard on), because they probably never in their life have heard the word 'NO' before.

No, THEY wanted the world to hear THEIR work, not Michael's.
 
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Chamife said:
'Finish' Michael's work by today's hottest producers: fine (not my personal preference, but alas. Can't sell demo's, they don't make $)

Mixes of Michael's songs by today's hottest Dj's: fine too

Releasing songs that Michael had nothing to do with and sell/label them as his work: unacceptable
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lol..the world is a big place with all kinds of people we might never think about...a lot of ppl who have such a special place in their heart for MJ(and are obsessed with HIS sound..i think that's a positive word IMO) we never know what they'll buy..i know i am not the only one in the world who would buy MJ demos raw with just his work on them. I loved the box set.

and as far as 'today's "hottest producers" ' i can't tell you how many people on youtube vids long for the good ol days of music and hate the sound of today's 'hottest producers'. i see it in so many comments on youtube vids.
 
Chamife said:
^^hahaha..!!

I have a feeling they think a second disc with demo's or interesting stuff for hardcore fans only doesn't sell too well. Maybe too little hardcore fans overall?

Don't know about sales from similar special (demo, rare audio) discs from other artists?

I personally am not interested in remixes. I can listen to them and have an opinion, but I realize it's just someone elses work. And when I hear a 'finished' Michael song, the only parts I enjoy are Michael's voice and the melody and the thought behind the song. And when it's done with real love and respect for the artist/person Michael Jackson (which I feel when I hear Will.I.am or Ron Feemster or the guitarist Tommy Emmanuel on 'Much too soon' speak for example), I just can't have problems with it.

Michael's gone and that's how it works. I pick and listen to what I like and ignore the rest. I also realize that not everyone feels this way and I can understand that. It really depends on what kind of fan you are, I think..:unsure:. We're all different fans.

But I do have problems (eufemism...:puke:) with people who's ego's are too big for their own good and don't know their limits (and talk BS about how eager Michael was to let his fans hear these 'pearls', that he worked so hard on), because they probably never in their life have heard the word 'NO' before.

No, THEY wanted the world to hear THEIR work, not Michael's.
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i love your last paragraph especially.
 
Paw;3694357 said:
“This Is It” was finished by John McClain just like “Hold My Hand” was finished by Akon,so they are both undoubtedly “fake”.Just kidding.
Michael never stop writing songs,but many of which are unfinished or just demos.If some of them were chosen to be released on an album,they would be finished by others or released the way Michael left behind.The only “real” song we got is “Don’t Be Messin’ Around” (Demo) since June 25th,2009.DBMA is an interesting demo which is appropriate for fans’ collection,but not to new generation’s taste.It’s not even up to Michael Jackson the perfectionist’s releasable standard.So we will inevitably depend on other producers finishing many of Michael’s posthumous songs.
I can understand that fans want to experience music the way Michael left behind.They want Michael’s vision.Now the question is….what is Michael’s vision?Anybody knows of it?I believe nobody knows it better than Michael himself.He said Michael wanted it this way,she said Michael liked that more.They are nothing but our imagination.Michael would keep on polishing his music if you never set the deadline.You thought some song was finished and reflected Michael’s vision,but Michael might change it thoroughly himself.So I believe Michael’s vision issue is an unanswerable question.
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This only intensifies the excruciating pain that Michael went through and expressed in words(i see quotes from Michael all over this board on ppl's signatures...i know R.Kelly was an exception on You Are Not Alone) at having to work with many of the people that worked with him. Indeed, we might not know a lot. There are a lot of mysteries behind 'This Is It', how it arrived, and so forth. There will always be arguments back and forth about 'vision', but all i know is, i bought multiple copies of invincible, and re bought 'one more chance' and all i know is, that special feeling i get when listening to his pure work is unmistakable for me, personally, i can't worry about other thoughts on the issue...i just know i have an unreleased 2008 Hold My Hand, and not the version with Akon's 'finishing' touches. It's just a personal thing for me, and i'm not going to worry about further explanations.
 
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Dylan.jpg

These releases seem to do very well. It's all in how they view Michael as an artist. If they think he's a not very serious teenybopper pop artist, we won't get very deep releases. If he's taken seriously as a true artist like Dylan, we'll get deeper releases respecting his artistry. So far unfortunately it's been a bit more slanted to the former.
 
Aniram & T.N.A. I gotcha.It's a very good idea to include original vision or raw demos on a second disc for fans' collection.
Now I have some exciting news to tell yall.Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome my new DJ Stella!Hey Stella,show them what you got.Do some scratches,baby.
(Stella scratch)It....it's....Ja....Jason...Jason Ma....Jason Malachi...Malachi....sing....singing....on.....Ca...Cascio....cio.....tra....tra...tra.....tracks...Ja...Ja..Jason Malachi....Ja...Ja..Jason Malachi.
(Me)Alright.Everybody give it up for DJ Stella! I hope you will be the next hottest DJ to work on Michael's new album.

Please don't mad at me.Bumper is not around,I think I could make a joke here.
 
StellaJackson said:
I don't think it is besides the point if Jason was used. There is a big difference between an imposters vocals and guide vocals. Guide vocals are still Michael. An imposters vocals are illegal. It is fraud.
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I agree with Stella. (yeah shocker I know ahahaha :) ) There's a huge difference of "falsification" Korgex defined versus the imposter vocal theory.

The "falsification" is a posthumous release concept and more of a ethics issue such as
- is it okay to have Eminem produce a Tupac album ? (Eminem wasn't even industry when Tupac died)
- is it okay to use already released song bits of Biggie to create new songs?
- is it okay to strengthen Michael's vocals with additional vocals for a composite lead?

Furthermore if the "falsification" theory assumes every vocal is at least credited with a background vocal credit, that could even be legal.

As Stella pointed out imposter vocals area whole totally different thing which is clearly illegal.


Judging from Michael's work, this is definitely not the way he wanted these songs to sound, the voice, the tacky production and all the cut and pastes...We need to find a common ground among all fans...and I think that's a good start to all agree on...
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I know you heard me say "it's the reality of posthumous releases" a million times but I'm gonna repeat it again :) I like to give Tupac - Eminem example. It was 5th or 6th posthumous release, by that time sales were declining of Tupac. Tupac's mother who also runs his Estate approved Eminem to be the producer, actually they wanted a new approach and a popular and hip person to do it.

However Eminem was a cook when Tupac died, wasn't in the music industry, never met or worked with Tupac. Furthermore he totally had his spin / style on the songs, even did new beats and modified Tupac's vocals to fit the new music. Needless to say some Tupac fans were angered by it. They didn't want Eminem around the songs, they criticized the how the songs were drastically changed and not Tupac's vision and so on. Also generally speaking in both Tupac and Biggie's cases they kept adding verses from other current artists to complete the songs.

That's what I call a "posthumous release reality". Some fans would criticize it as it happened in the cases of Tupac and Biggie. and it's really a choice. but not really comparable to an imposter .
 
T.N.A. said:
Actually they do, if they're targeted to the right people (hardcore fans) but since that's not happening and the demos aren't the main product on a release that targets the general public, they should put the demos on a damn 2nd f**cking disc.

That way the general public is happy to get new MJ songs without caring about demos and the hardcore fans are happy cause they get the demos and the re-worked tracks (if they care about them or not). The 2 disc collectors editions could be an extra 10-20-30 bucks or whatever (I'd personally be willing to pay extra for the demos and I imagine many other MJ fans would too) and I'd be a win-win-win for the Estate/Sony, the general public and the MJ fans...

Seriously MJ Estate and Sony, this isn't rocket science...

I'm having a hard time believing that whenever they have a meeting to discuss how they're gonna do a new album and somebody asks "so, how we gonna do this?" everybody in there is like...

2ezo6ew.gif
Click to expand...

But the thing is, the Estate cannot reply purely on the hardcore fanbase to make money. The songs are redone to have a contemporary appeal and gather in new fans. I can count that my kid brother (who is entering ninth grade) has friends that didn't have an interest in Michael until they heard this album. We all would love to hear the original, untouched demo recordings, but that won't make as much of an impact.

And before I'm scolded, I vastly prefer untouched demos to redone tracks. I'm just being realistic. Besides, the 2013 album's songs will be mostly untouched, with a few alterations here and there.
 
T.N.A. said:
Actually they do, if they're targeted to the right people (hardcore fans) but since that's not happening and the demos aren't the main product on a release that targets the general public, they should put the demos on a damn 2nd f**cking disc.

That way the general public is happy to get new MJ songs without caring about demos and the hardcore fans are happy cause they get the demos and the re-worked tracks (if they care about them or not). The 2 disc collectors editions could be an extra 10-20-30 bucks or whatever (I'd personally be willing to pay extra for the demos and I imagine many other MJ fans would too) and I'd be a win-win-win for the Estate/Sony, the general public and the MJ fans...

Seriously MJ Estate and Sony, this isn't rocket science...

I'm having a hard time believing that whenever they have a meeting to discuss how they're gonna do a new album and somebody asks "so, how we gonna do this?" everybody in there is like...

2ezo6ew.gif
Click to expand...

Chamife said:
^^hahaha..!!

I have a feeling they think a second disc with demo's or interesting stuff for hardcore fans only doesn't sell too well. Maybe too little hardcore fans overall?

Don't know about sales from similar special (demo, rare audio) discs from other artists?

I personally am not interested in remixes. I can listen to them and have an opinion, but I realize it's just someone elses work. And when I hear a 'finished' Michael song, the only parts I enjoy are Michael's voice and the melody and the thought behind the song. And when it's done with real love and respect for the artist/person Michael Jackson (which I feel when I hear Will.I.am or Ron Feemster or the guitarist Tommy Emmanuel on 'Much too soon' speak for example), I just can't have problems with it.
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AlwaysThere said:
But the thing is, the Estate cannot reply purely on the hardcore fanbase to make money. The songs are redone to have a contemporary appeal and gather in new fans. I can count that my kid brother (who is entering ninth grade) has friends that didn't have an interest in Michael until they heard this album. We all would love to hear the original, untouched demo recordings, but that won't make as much of an impact.

And before I'm scolded, I vastly prefer untouched demos to redone tracks. I'm just being realistic. Besides, the 2013 album's songs will be mostly untouched, with a few alterations here and there.
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Actually there's quite a lot of posthumous releases to know how the market works.

Demos don't sell. It only interests die-hard fans and that's a too small market for any profit. - Remember the physical sales for Don't be messin' around in USA? Around 5,000 - 10,000 units in first week , that's too small. Similarly it didn't even make to the digital singles chart. demos don't sell.

So for any decent sale they need to focus on general public and to fully finished songs. Sometimes even remixed, or updated to current time songs. Remember Elvis's "a little less conversation" ?

2 CD sets do not sell as well. Having to print two (or more versions) cost more money . Retailers don't prefer to stock two or more versions due to limited shelf and inventory space. So probably given that the "collectors edition with original demos" would sell low numbers (as only die hard fans would buy it) and given the cost elements it wouldn't make sense to release it.

A digital release can be a possibility but most people would not pay for it extra either. They would feel that as they bought the album and paid for it, it's okay to get the demos for free.

So the most logical scenario would be is actually hold on to the demos for a far future release. Because posthumous releases also show that after a while posthumous sales decrease and became limited to die hard fans only. so that would be a good time to release the "Michael Jackson original demos" and actually be able to sell some.
 
As I pointed out, the Bob Dylan Bootleg series does very well and is highly anticipated and he is still alive! It really depends what your expectations are. I don't expect Michael to be topping the charts with every release like when he was here. That to me is unrealistic.
 
AlwaysThere said:
But the thing is, the Estate cannot reply purely on the hardcore fanbase to make money. The songs are redone to have a contemporary appeal and gather in new fans. I can count that my kid brother (who is entering ninth grade) has friends that didn't have an interest in Michael until they heard this album. We all would love to hear the original, untouched demo recordings, but that won't make as much of an impact.

And before I'm scolded, I vastly prefer untouched demos to redone tracks. I'm just being realistic. Besides, the 2013 album's songs will be mostly untouched, with a few alterations here and there.
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Fair enough.

ivy said:
Actually there's quite a lot of posthumous releases to know how the market works.

Demos don't sell. It only interests die-hard fans and that's a too small market for any profit. - Remember the physical sales for Don't be messin' around in USA? Around 5,000 - 10,000 units in first week , that's too small. Similarly it didn't even make to the digital singles chart. demos don't sell.

So for any decent sale they need to focus on general public and to fully finished songs. Sometimes even remixed, or updated to current time songs. Remember Elvis's "a little less conversation" ?

2 CD sets do not sell as well. Having to print two (or more versions) cost more money . Retailers don't prefer to stock two or more versions due to limited shelf and inventory space. So probably given that the "collectors edition with original demos" would sell low numbers (as only die hard fans would buy it) and given the cost elements it wouldn't make sense to release it.

A digital release can be a possibility but most people would not pay for it extra either. They would feel that as they bought the album and paid for it, it's okay to get the demos for free.

So the most logical scenario would be is actually hold on to the demos for a far future release. Because posthumous releases also show that after a while posthumous sales decrease and became limited to die hard fans only. so that would be a good time to release the "Michael Jackson original demos" and actually be able to sell some.
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I see your point there.

I'd just wish they'd put out the original versions on iTunes or something if the 2CD thing costs and doesn't quite work. But yeah, they're probably saving them for some sort of anthology type boxsets.

Oh well...
 
ivy said:
I agree with Stella. (yeah shocker I know ahahaha :) ) There's a huge difference of "falsification" Korgex defined versus the imposter vocal theory.

The "falsification" is a posthumous release concept and more of a ethics issue such as
- is it okay to have Eminem produce a Tupac album ? (Eminem wasn't even industry when Tupac died)
- is it okay to use already released song bits of Biggie to create new songs?
- is it okay to strengthen Michael's vocals with additional vocals for a composite lead?

Furthermore if the "falsification" theory assumes every vocal is at least credited with a background vocal credit, that could even be legal.

As Stella pointed out imposter vocals area whole totally different thing which is clearly illegal.

I know you heard me say "it's the reality of posthumous releases" a million times but I'm gonna repeat it again :) I like to give Tupac - Eminem example. It was 5th or 6th posthumous release, by that time sales were declining of Tupac. Tupac's mother who also runs his Estate approved Eminem to be the producer, actually they wanted a new approach and a popular and hip person to do it.

However Eminem was a cook when Tupac died, wasn't in the music industry, never met or worked with Tupac. Furthermore he totally had his spin / style on the songs, even did new beats and modified Tupac's vocals to fit the new music. Needless to say some Tupac fans were angered by it. They didn't want Eminem around the songs, they criticized the how the songs were drastically changed and not Tupac's vision and so on. Also generally speaking in both Tupac and Biggie's cases they kept adding verses from other current artists to complete the songs.

That's what I call a "posthumous release reality". Some fans would criticize it as it happened in the cases of Tupac and Biggie. and it's really a choice. but not really comparable to an imposter .
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You are right,ivy.You are talking about Pac's "Loyal To The Game" album and Biggie's "The Duets" album.Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I wouldn't call that a posthumous release reality...What I'd refer to is say, 'Hold My Hand' or 'Behind the Mask', or 'Much Too Soon'...as posthumous realities...Do you see vast quantities of fans angered by those releases? No, you don't...You see anger about the Cascio songs...Those go WAY WAY beyond a posthumous release reality, and definitely CAN be comparable to an imposter, because it could very well be one...

I think even believers sorta avoid those Cascio songs cuz they really aren't that enjoyable and don't sound fully enough like Michael to be comfortable with them, you know? That's just some of the comments I've heard anyway....

But anyway, we're not talking about Biggie and Tupac or whatever...We're talking about Michael and he's the only one I really care about...
 
The Cascios are probably praying that evidence doesn't come out. Technically, seeing as how we don't have anything to prove that the tracks are Michael or are not, it's all hearsay. But if any evidence comes out, Eddie and Jason are going to jail.
 
AlwaysThere said:
But the thing is, the Estate cannot reply purely on the hardcore fanbase to make money. The songs are redone to have a contemporary appeal and gather in new fans. I can count that my kid brother (who is entering ninth grade) has friends that didn't have an interest in Michael until they heard this album. We all would love to hear the original, untouched demo recordings, but that won't make as much of an impact.

And before I'm scolded, I vastly prefer untouched demos to redone tracks. I'm just being realistic. Besides, the 2013 album's songs will be mostly untouched, with a few alterations here and there.
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WildStyle said:
As I pointed out, the Bob Dylan Bootleg series does very well and is highly anticipated and he is still alive! It really depends what your expectations are. I don't expect Michael to be topping the charts with every release like when he was here. That to me is unrealistic.
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The Estate's job is not only to make money, but also to promote Michael's legacy. Gaining new fans is important (although I still don't know how releasing highly fabricated songs can attract new fans), but enlightening the public about the true artist Michael Jackson was may be even more important.

IMHO, attempt to "update" Michael's music to suit today's music scene is merely a short-sighted commercial strategy. Today's "club beat" is here today gone tomorrow. I wonder how many people will listen to Pitbull five years from now. Many artists today, from Bieber to Beyonce, have said Michael Jackson is their inspiration. Ironically, people feel the need to "update" Michael's songs, which inspired many, to today's beats.

No, demos don't sell. An album of unfinished demos is never meant to be a best seller or chart topper. But, at this point, do we really need another chart topper? Sometimes, I envy fans of Dylan, Springsteen, Lennon and even Prince. There are so many materials availabe out there that show appreciation of their artistry. The general public still sees Michael as pop act, an entertainer, a sing and dance man, but not a legit artist. I wouldn't be surprised if people still don't know Michael wrote Billie Jean. So, no, demos don't sell. But, a collection of demos with a booklet that contains some kind of explanation of Michael's role in the development of each song will be a nice addition to Michael's discography. So, when a young fan decides to learn more about Michael, instead of finding the endless number of greatest hit albums and remixes, he or she has the choice to hear some raw and rare materials.

Nowadays, we tend to measure success with dollar sign. The more money the more successful. Joe Vogel was right when he said Michael was misunderstood. Many people thought Michael was a material person who was obsessed about sales. The truth is that he wanted his albums to sell because he wanted his messages to reach out to as many people as possible. He wanted to be recognized as an artist.

It's difficult to find a balancing act between making money and attaining a mission. It takes courage and extraordinary vision to achieve greatness.


 
I'm more surprised that you guys want to know who is who rather than which is the story!

:lol:
 
^^ I remember you guys talking about it a few pages back or something :lol:

LOL, the skinny one looks like Conan O'Brien
 
Arklove said:
I wouldn't call that a posthumous release reality...What I'd refer to is say, 'Hold My Hand' or 'Behind the Mask', or 'Much Too Soon'...as posthumous realities...Do you see vast quantities of fans angered by those releases? No, you don't...
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It's all about the number of finished songs. For example Tupac's first album was finished before his death and released after his death. Obviously it sold a lot and was accepted by all the fans. As the complete songs ended and they needed to do future albums with demos, a verse from here a verse from there and as they started to take liberties with production the issues started.

You see anger about the Cascio songs...Those go WAY WAY beyond a posthumous release reality, and definitely CAN be comparable to an imposter, because it could very well be one...
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well that's actually what I said. didn't you and love is magical said "it doesn't matter if it's Malachi, fabrication is enough". I disagreed with that saying that imposter is a whole different ball park and added what people call "fabrication" is actually an posthumous release reality.



But anyway, we're not talking about Biggie and Tupac or whatever...We're talking about Michael and he's the only one I really care about...
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I know but you cannot ignore the other examples and see what might happen and what will not happen. It allows us to have a realistic approach to stuff. It's easy to say "give me finished songs by the way Michael did it" but the reality is that it might not happen if there's not many finished ready to release songs. Also knowing about the past examples of posthumous releases can help people to have realistic expectations and therefore have more satisfaction from the future releases.
 
Talking about fabricating songs, Eddie should listen to "Take Me Away". thats how you fabricate song ;)))))))))))))))))))))))
 
@ivy...Well, we can agree to disagree...You seem to imply that you're ok with these fabrications whether it be Tupac example or Cascio example, cuz you keep calling it a reality, and that's a reality to you...I think they're completely different and therefore unacceptable in that an imposter is a possibility in these songs...It's been claimed that Michael is the lead in these songs....I don't know what they were claiming with the Tupac stuff...

I was basically giving the believers' side an inch with saying 'It doesn't matter if it's Malachi or it's a fabrication'...It's the principle in the fact that these songs are so far off from being MJ in any way, shape or form because of whatever they've done to them (imposter or heavy processing) that they really can't even be called MJ songs

Whether or not it's a 'reality' really doesn't make anyone more 'satisfied' with it, or that's it's the right thing to do...

As I said before, BTM, MTS, HMH are posthumous realities in an acceptable form, IMO and I think most would agree, and at least no one can argue that it's Michael Jackson on those lead vocals....We can expect some changes in releases after an artist passes away, I completely accept that as we've seen it a few times already...but it all depends on the approach of the ones doing the changes...Some producers have shown complete respect for MJ as an artist, and some don't...

You see even on the BAD25 press release that they've specifically pointed out 'Nothing has been added'...To me, it shows they've been listening and taking that into consideration when they should have done that in the FIRST place when doing the Michael album....Does it really take a fans' outrage to change things? Obviously. An acceptable, respectable release CAN be done and it really wasn't necessary to go the extreme that they did with the Cascio songs...

This is sounding so repetitive now lol
 
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