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Eddie said on Oprah that MJ was working every day very hard on those songs and that he really wanted to release them. On top of that he confirmed with Teddy that MJ would have loved the controversy.
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Eddie said on Oprah that MJ was working every day very hard on those songs and that he really wanted to release them. On top of that he confirmed with Teddy that MJ would have loved the controversy.
nfj
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I was a strong supporter of Michael album, basicly for psycological reasons, since it was Michael's first new album after more than 10 years.
I have to admit that I love most of the songs but now I don't lisent the three anticipated songs.
They are always skiped in the car where I always listent Michael and are not in the playlist of MJtunes.com which I'm lisent at home.
I have to admit that I love most of the songs but now I don't lisent the three anticipated songs.
They are always skiped in the car where I always listent Michael and are not in the playlist of MJtunes.com which I'm lisent at home.
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And what are your beliefs now?
A Buddhist?
StellaJackson
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Just wanted to say, Michael was not at the Cascio's for four months. That's another myth. He arrived mid August and left first week of November. He also spent a week of that time in New York where he did the L'uomo Vogue and Ebony photoshoots and attended a performance of the Lion King on Broadway with his children. So it wasn't even a continuous stay. He looked and acted anything but a wreck in that time.
nfj
Proud Member
And what are your beliefs now?
I prefer BAD25!!!!!!
I never comment in public against Michael's work and we all have to admit that Michael album contains a part of his legacy.
The only thing I know for sure is that a friend of mine, with great backround in recording studios, told me that after analysis of the Cascio tracks she realize that the songs are duets.
Shut up, I wasn't talking to you
A duet of Jason Malachi and James Porte?
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Is there an echo in here?
Is there an echo in here... an echo in here... an echo in here... echo in ehere... in here... in here... here... here...
Nope... ope.. ope.. ope... pe... pe... e.. e
*sticks fingers in ears mimicking Lloyd Christmas* "a la la la la la ...ah la la la la la* Nobodies listening
OnirMJ
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Eddie & Frank said that. He wasn't there four months.
AlwaysThere
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Michael did not stay at the Cascio residence for four months, as it's been noted; he stayed between mid August and early November. So best estimate is two and a half months. You need to stop using the phrase "incomplete vocals". All twelve Cascio tracks have fully-recorded lead vocals. Every Cascio demo we've heard thus far is nowhere near incomplete. If anything, they're all fully ready for future use on a Jason Malachi album.
Also, Eddie was a complete amateur. Based on video from the Cascio basement, he doesn't have a proper studio; just a computer and a mic, amidst some instruments. Professional producers that Michael worked with around 2007, such as will.i.am and RedOne, recorded in professional studios with soundboards and other professional equipment (for the most part). Two years of work with will.i.am produced four finished tracks. A year and a half of work with RedOne produced absolutely NO finished tracks, but a few tracks complete enough for a future release. And then you expect us to believe that two and a half/three months with Eddie Cascio produced twelve completed songs? Hell no.
MusicMan26
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What I would like to see are some comparisons of James Porte's voice to the Cascio tracks. People are always throwing his name around, but do we have any audio evidence that his voice is even on the tracks?
OnirMJ
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His voice is on the tracks, that's for sure, but only in the background and he doubling the lead vocalist on some words like "Michael Jackson" in Breaking News. But he is irrelevant because he is not singing the lead vocals unless he is impersonating Michael instead of Jason Malachi or whoever.
kreen
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That was PR, meant to promote the record. He wasn't going to say on Oprah, "yeah, those songs are lame, and MJ could hardly be bothered to even record them, but that's all we have, so we're putting them out".
kreen
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So, if there were, say, FIVE Cascio songs instead of 12, then you'd believe they're real? See, that's no argument. The fact is that he WAS at the Cascios for a certain length of time -- let's say 2 months and a half --, they DO have recording equipment there, and they DID have a bunch of songs (written before hand) ready to be recorded. So from that point of view, their story is perfectly believable. As to the number of songs they could record in such a period : 12 is nothing out of the ordinary, considering most if not all of them were already written before hand. MJ was prolific when he wanted to : witness the 60 songs he recorded for Invincible, or the dozens he did for Bad. And if he was in such great health as you guys say, gee, I wonder why he didn't record 20 songs!
And as for the songs being complete, I am still waiting for people who have all of the songs to analyse them and show me whether they are as complete as you say. Take all of those songs, and remove all the parts that seem to feature a different singer from the lead vocalist (whoever that is), and also remove all the verses and choruses that might just be a loop of a previous part, and let's see how complete the songs are.
WildStyle
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Ah yes, the photoshoots where he looked great. And the Ebony interview were he sounded fine, engaging and clear headed. Yep, a real "shell of a man".
I will also add, speaking as someone with a very basic knowledge of mixing, it's fairly pointless to mix tracks with only guide vocals if the real main vocals are available. Once you slot in the other vocals, you will have to make enough changes to the mix that would render the other mix pretty much a waste of time. That part of the story just makes no sense to me.
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Paw
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Let’s put Cascio tracks aside.
Two and a half months (not a continued stay) is not a short time for a singer to record complete (might not perfect or presentable) vocals for 12 songs.Did MJ work with Will.I.Am or Redone 24/7 for 2 years to just produce 4 finished songs?I don’t think so.
We have people who also work in record business in this thread.You know that.
Two and a half months (not a continued stay) is not a short time for a singer to record complete (might not perfect or presentable) vocals for 12 songs.Did MJ work with Will.I.Am or Redone 24/7 for 2 years to just produce 4 finished songs?I don’t think so.
We have people who also work in record business in this thread.You know that.
kreen
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Alright, I've just had a fascinating email conversation with Angelo Montrone, the sound engineer from Majestic Music who was given the Cascio tracks to mix in 2009, and who sent his finished mixes back in early June 2009, before MJ's death. With his permission, and on the condition that I send him the link to this thread, I am reproducing below the complete conversation, in chronological order.
Hello,
Surfing the Web, some Michael Jackson fans have noticed that you worked on some of the tracks that were eventually released on the “Michael” album from Sony back in 2010.
As you might remember, those tracks created controversy, and while this controversy has died down in the mainstream media, it is still going strong on Michael Jackson Internet forums, where every effort is still being made to determine how much input MJ had into those songs, and indeed whether he ever even recorded them.
Considering your early involvement in this project, would you mind telling us a bit about your impression of the authenticity of the vocals?
Mainly, did you get the impression working on the tracks that no MJ vocals for those songs existed as of yet, and that they were to come later, or do you agree that there may have been early MJ guide or demo vocals existing before you were handed the tracks?
Thank you very much for your time.
Bernard Couture, Ottawa, Canada
***
Hi Bernard,
I assume you are the person who contacted me on Gearslutz. Unfortunately, I never got a straight story as to where they were with MJ in the process. Porte had written on quite a few songs with him and supposedly MJ had laid down some roughs, other things were going to be done later etc. Most of my conversation with Porte centered around the mixes as opposed to the logistics of when they were going to track vocals. We tracked some background vocals for Keep Your Head Up with Katia Cadet in late May and then I was mixing. I sent them my mixes in early June and MJ passed away a few weeks later so there certainly was time for MJ to have recorded his tracks.
On the other hand, I remember hearing the MJ track with headphones after it was released and thinking, "This could be MJ, but it's not MJ doing a great vocal." Maybe that was a rough, maybe it was because of his physical condition and the fact that he had grown older. The only raw MJ tracks I have ever heard were when they did the transfers of Thriller for the 25th anniversary (for Kanye to remix). Because I was an producer/A&R consultant for Sony at the time, I was in the studio and able to listen to all the tracks individually. Listening to MJ's vocal on it's own demonstrated what a great singer he was. Absolutely killer. However, that was 25 years earlier when MJ was young and healthy.
If you want an answer you have to figure out what MJ did between June 3 when I sent the final mix and June 25 when he passed away (and account for the fact that there may have been a guide that MJ had sung during the songwritng that could have been used after the fact).
Regards,
Angelo
***
Hello,
Thank you very much for your answer. I'm not the person who contacted you on Gearslutz, but that must have been somebody else from the same MJ forums I belong to; sorry if too many of us are bothering you at the same time.
It is 100% certain that the vocals that were eventually released on the "Michael" album were NOT recorded between June 3 and June 25; the producers/writers themselves have always claimed that the vocals, such as they are, were recorded in 2007, in Eddie Cascio (Porte's songwriting partner)'s family home, where he has a home studio.
In your email, you mention the following : "Porte had written on quite a few songs with him and supposedly MJ had laid down some roughs, other things were going to be done later etc." This is a HUGELY important point. Did Porte, in his conversations with you, before MJ's death, mention that he had some rough vocals from MJ? If he did mention or imply that he already had some rough vocals from MJ, that would support the official story, which is that all of those vocals that ended up on the album were rough/guide vocals from MJ, recorded in Cascio's home studio, as they were collaborating on the songs.
I thank you again for this information, which is immensely fascinating.
Bernard Couture
***
Hi Bernard,
I can't say with any certainty about what Porte and Cascio (Angel as we called him) had done vocally with MJ on any of the songs that I worked on. I worked on 3 or 4 songs for which they sent me audio and Porte's guide vocals only. Porte does sound a lot like MJ himself.
From what your telling me that Porte and Angelo claimed, it would make sense to me. I know that they had worked on tracks for MJ at Angel's NJ studio (I think they did one of the bonus tracks on the Thriller 25th there), and I was under the impression that they had done guides with MJ on the songs we were working on. Again, I never sat there and drilled them on exactly what they had or hadn't done, because it wasn't relevant to what I was doing. Usually if you're writing with an artist the artist will sing the track to make sure the key is good, the song sounds good with their voice etc, so I would assume that there were some guides done by MJ based on the normal way things are done.
I'm sure this is a tough nut to crack. If you know for sure MJ didn't record after I sent the mixes, well, it's very likely that there were existing guide vox the producer had at their disposal. Beyond that it becomes very murky. There are so many studio tricks that are used on singers to enhance their voices which are just part of modern pop music (pitch correction, copying words from other parts of the song, comping between takes, sliding things around, having another singer's voice blended in subtly to enhance the sound of the lead vocalist) and no doubt that if the producer were working with MJ's rough vocals they were using some of those tricks, which I'm sure MJ himself had used on previous albums (as everyone does to some degree).
You can quote me on the discussion forums but please send me a link to anything you post so I can verity that I'm being quoted correctly.
Hope this helps,
Angelo
Hello,
Surfing the Web, some Michael Jackson fans have noticed that you worked on some of the tracks that were eventually released on the “Michael” album from Sony back in 2010.
As you might remember, those tracks created controversy, and while this controversy has died down in the mainstream media, it is still going strong on Michael Jackson Internet forums, where every effort is still being made to determine how much input MJ had into those songs, and indeed whether he ever even recorded them.
Considering your early involvement in this project, would you mind telling us a bit about your impression of the authenticity of the vocals?
Mainly, did you get the impression working on the tracks that no MJ vocals for those songs existed as of yet, and that they were to come later, or do you agree that there may have been early MJ guide or demo vocals existing before you were handed the tracks?
Thank you very much for your time.
Bernard Couture, Ottawa, Canada
***
Hi Bernard,
I assume you are the person who contacted me on Gearslutz. Unfortunately, I never got a straight story as to where they were with MJ in the process. Porte had written on quite a few songs with him and supposedly MJ had laid down some roughs, other things were going to be done later etc. Most of my conversation with Porte centered around the mixes as opposed to the logistics of when they were going to track vocals. We tracked some background vocals for Keep Your Head Up with Katia Cadet in late May and then I was mixing. I sent them my mixes in early June and MJ passed away a few weeks later so there certainly was time for MJ to have recorded his tracks.
On the other hand, I remember hearing the MJ track with headphones after it was released and thinking, "This could be MJ, but it's not MJ doing a great vocal." Maybe that was a rough, maybe it was because of his physical condition and the fact that he had grown older. The only raw MJ tracks I have ever heard were when they did the transfers of Thriller for the 25th anniversary (for Kanye to remix). Because I was an producer/A&R consultant for Sony at the time, I was in the studio and able to listen to all the tracks individually. Listening to MJ's vocal on it's own demonstrated what a great singer he was. Absolutely killer. However, that was 25 years earlier when MJ was young and healthy.
If you want an answer you have to figure out what MJ did between June 3 when I sent the final mix and June 25 when he passed away (and account for the fact that there may have been a guide that MJ had sung during the songwritng that could have been used after the fact).
Regards,
Angelo
***
Hello,
Thank you very much for your answer. I'm not the person who contacted you on Gearslutz, but that must have been somebody else from the same MJ forums I belong to; sorry if too many of us are bothering you at the same time.
It is 100% certain that the vocals that were eventually released on the "Michael" album were NOT recorded between June 3 and June 25; the producers/writers themselves have always claimed that the vocals, such as they are, were recorded in 2007, in Eddie Cascio (Porte's songwriting partner)'s family home, where he has a home studio.
In your email, you mention the following : "Porte had written on quite a few songs with him and supposedly MJ had laid down some roughs, other things were going to be done later etc." This is a HUGELY important point. Did Porte, in his conversations with you, before MJ's death, mention that he had some rough vocals from MJ? If he did mention or imply that he already had some rough vocals from MJ, that would support the official story, which is that all of those vocals that ended up on the album were rough/guide vocals from MJ, recorded in Cascio's home studio, as they were collaborating on the songs.
I thank you again for this information, which is immensely fascinating.
Bernard Couture
***
Hi Bernard,
I can't say with any certainty about what Porte and Cascio (Angel as we called him) had done vocally with MJ on any of the songs that I worked on. I worked on 3 or 4 songs for which they sent me audio and Porte's guide vocals only. Porte does sound a lot like MJ himself.
From what your telling me that Porte and Angelo claimed, it would make sense to me. I know that they had worked on tracks for MJ at Angel's NJ studio (I think they did one of the bonus tracks on the Thriller 25th there), and I was under the impression that they had done guides with MJ on the songs we were working on. Again, I never sat there and drilled them on exactly what they had or hadn't done, because it wasn't relevant to what I was doing. Usually if you're writing with an artist the artist will sing the track to make sure the key is good, the song sounds good with their voice etc, so I would assume that there were some guides done by MJ based on the normal way things are done.
I'm sure this is a tough nut to crack. If you know for sure MJ didn't record after I sent the mixes, well, it's very likely that there were existing guide vox the producer had at their disposal. Beyond that it becomes very murky. There are so many studio tricks that are used on singers to enhance their voices which are just part of modern pop music (pitch correction, copying words from other parts of the song, comping between takes, sliding things around, having another singer's voice blended in subtly to enhance the sound of the lead vocalist) and no doubt that if the producer were working with MJ's rough vocals they were using some of those tricks, which I'm sure MJ himself had used on previous albums (as everyone does to some degree).
You can quote me on the discussion forums but please send me a link to anything you post so I can verity that I'm being quoted correctly.
Hope this helps,
Angelo
AlwaysThere
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Again, just because Eddie has recording equipment doesn't necessarily mean that Michael decided to record there. I will admit that Michael recorded the additional vocals to Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' 2008 in Eddie's basement. But when comparing those vocals to the vocals on the Cascio tracks, you can tell that they are not the same person (through pronunciation, vibrato, etc.). Their story is NOT believable, as there is no proof stating that these tracks were recorded. The only person who's ever discussed the "recording" of them was Eddie. Even James Porte/Bobby Ewing himself declined interviews and comments. It's a little more than "suspicious" that twelve tracks (or "demos" as you call them) suddenly were pulled out of thin air without any back story.
Michael recorded 60 songs for Invincible, yes. But you fail to realize that Invincible was recorded over a period of almost four years (late 1997 to early 2001). Your argument with Bad isn't valid, either, as Michael was in his late 20's and was on top of his game. Note the six year gap between HIStory and Invincible, and the fact that Michael continued to work on music from 2002 to 2009 and didn't release his long-awaited eleventh studio album. This was due to his odd work habits of partially recording songs, never to return to them again, and his perfectionism. I don't understand, however, how you could believe that Michael could FULLY record an album's worth of songs (despite what you say, it's clear that the Cascio tracks are fully finalized tracks) with an amateur producer but fails to finish SIX with a professional.
And as far as the lead vocalist goes, all the lead vocals on the Cascio tracks are credited to Michael Jackson. And Michael Jackson ONLY. Nowhere in any of the MICHAEL liner notes does it note any other lead vocalist for the tracks; just background vocals (mainly with James Porte). If James Porte DID occasionally take over lead vocals on the tracks, he should have been given credit. But I believe that there is ONE person on lead vocals for the Cascio tracks, and that is Jason Malachi. Go listen to the a cappella of Breaking News. The lead vocal is from the EXACT SAME person throughout. As far as completion goes, go take a listen to Stay. Minus the ONE instance of looped vocals ("Don't go away/Stay by my side/Stay by my side"), all the vocals are completely different and new. Same with Burn Tonight; absolutely no reused vocals. These are finished tracks.
Also, you're constantly contradicting yourself with your story. You're attributing Michael's health at the time to why he never finished many of his projects, yet somehow believes that he can record twelve songs? If Michael didn't have the mental/physical ability to work with anyone else, why would he suddenly recover for two and a half months for Eddie then return to failing health? Also, your quote that says "gee, I wonder why he didn't record 20 songs!" Over the course of 2005 to 2009 Michael has a few dozen songs that could be released (I am not counting any of the Cascio tracks). But note that only a few dozen songs are available from FOUR YEARS of work. It's very unlikely that Michael took it slow with his other producers, shot out twelve tracks with Eddie, then decided to take it slow for the next year. I mean really?
Thanks for posting this, it's nice to hear from someone who heard the tracks originally. But we all need to notice this portion of the e-mail:
Michael recorded additional background vocals for For All Time in the Cascio house, as well as the new vocals included on Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' 2008. Months later, Michael recorded Hold My Hand with Akon. His voice was in as good of shape as it ever was.
MusicMan26
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I agree.
StellaJackson
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Michael's voice was as good as it ever was in 2007, just see the live vocals in This Is It or Hold My Hand. But at least he confirms that he never saw any evidence of any vocals from Mj or even any confirmation that they existed.
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yep
yep. refer to my earlier post today.
,
yep yep , didn't our "wagon" said the same?
you really do not need to have 50 takes of a demo / guide of the same song and yes almost all musicians replace their initial vocals by final takes recorded in a studio. I worked with a national small fanbase band and I have never even seen them to release anything they recorded in their home studio during demo phases. They always re-recorded everything properly in an actual studio with actual engineers and producers and so on.
StellaJackson
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And another point, those weren't guide vocals. They are hard, multi take vocals with the singer going full out. They were sung over and over again. Multiple takes. Listen to that bridge on Black Widow. That is a full out complete vocal. Listen to Water. The guy is straining his ass off to hit those notes. And since when does blending Mj with Porte make him sound just like Jason Malachi? Fact is, this guy never heard any Mj vocals and never got any confirmation that they existed, despite the fact that according to the official story they had 12 complete songs that were recorded 18 months prior.
StellaJackson
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Never mind.
you are breaking my heart.
--------------------------------------------------------------
that aside, I sometimes can't help but wonder if people are creating their standards and expectations and also ignore the reality of the music production process.
for example for the last pages I'm reading a point how perfectionist Michael is and how the songs took hard time to be "finished" for him. yet then another post comes claiming Michael would have been satisfied with the work he had done at the basement and it's an issue that he would think to record the songs again in London. And I'm like seriously? Don't you think that even if Michael was head over the heals happy about these songs and over the moon excited that he still wouldn't work on them for example record them with Swedien, tweak them here and there, try different stuff? So I sit here and fail to see what is the "issue" with the alleged plan to record them again?
Similarly I read this morning - again - how it doesn't make sense that this guy wasn't given Michael's vocals. And I'm like doesn't the people realize how valuable are the Michael's vocals? Why not the collectors put everything they have for free online? why does Lounis watermarks his videos? Am I the only one that keeps MJ's autograph in a safe deposit box? If you had worked with Michael and if you had Michael's vocals - the most valuable thing btw - would you just hand them over to this local guy that easily for a rough mix (not a final product) when he doesn't even need it (he himself says it was irrelevant to what he was doing) ? Really?
I'm sometimes get quite confused on this thread to be honest.