Michael - The Great Album Debate

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Thanks

You're welcome.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I don't know if the believers realize this, but if what Korgnex says about "too bad" is true, then all along the believers were defending Porte's vocals as Michael's. Not single believer ever expressed their opinion as "too bad" being sung by someone else than MJ.

p.s. I just want to remind everyone that the "too bad" in "Monster" has already been discussed. The doubters from the beginning found it awful. Here is some of those comments that were posted on 19th of December 2010 at http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/99525-MONSTER-The-Official-Discussion-Thread/page30

Staffordshire Bullterrier commented that day:

The vocals from the Cascio tracks simply stand out so much, the voice is so different. Especially in Monster when the parts like 'Tooooo bad' come, the higher pitch of Michael is simply much different than that. Those things and much more make it so crystal clear to me it's not Michael.

Some fans, including myself immediately replied:

@Staffordshire I also completely agree, especially the "toooo bad" part in the Monster, it sounds sooooo Malachi, or if not him, it sounds all but Michael actually.

Arklove also replied:

yes, I totally agree about the toooooo bad part....I've been trying to hear Mike in there, but the voice just doesn't match up for me...Just doesn't....

As usual, the believers continued supporting that those lead vocals were Michael's, and 2 years after that debate here comes Korgnex with a "proof" that "too bad" is not sung by MJ. Well, haven't we been saying that since that Monster thread already?

I just wonder what will be the next proof. That teh rest of teh lead vocals aren't Michael? Well, hello, that's what we've been saying all along.

 

[OnirMJ]

Referring to the bolded part, Will i am said he wouldn't not be releasing the tracks he worked on w/Michael. Did he change his mind? Hope someone answers this.

Yes, he changed his mind. He said that he will release the tracks if Michael's mother asks him to. Now it's just the matter of time.

 

[MJelboo]

The amount of crappy arguments that have been thrown at us from believers and Cascio's alike are ridiculous. Bad studio equipment, recorded in a shower, heavily processed, unfinished, demo vocals, he was a wreck, James Porte background vocals, he changed his voice on purpose...

Not only does every single one sound farfetched, but they are all supposed to be true. Every single thing I said above supposedly applies to the Cascio tracks. I mean, how can anyone believe that?

 

[Pentum]

Interesting seeing believers have different opinions as well on who sings what.

 

[OnirMJ]

okay then let's reword it to say that it gave a plausible explanation that Michael knew about the songs rather than using the world confirm.

let recap - and I'll try to be as much fair as I can.

we now have the information that there was this guy who was given some songs to do rough mixes for some songs porte was collaborating with Michael. They guy was told this before Michael died and that's why he was hush -hush (initially writing "great musical talent) and excited and thrilled about being a part of the upcoming album. After Michael's death he confirms his identity.

This new piece of information dating before Michael's death makes it plausible (not confirm) the previous story that we heard, that Michael heard the songs when he was staying with Cascio's, contributed to them and had plans to work on them more in London with Porte and Eddie for a possible inclusion in his planned future album.

Even if we assume that the above information confirms Michael's knowledge and / or involvement about the songs, we still do not know the following:

- How much involvement? I mean he could have changed a single word, gave a little musical idea or could have a significant input into these songs. We simply do not know either way.

- Vocals? Even though he might had the knowledge and involvement at any level (minor or major) that doesn't mean he sang anything. He could have recorded a bunch of vocals or nothing at all. even if he recorded anything it could have been enhanced, supported or modified - in legit or not legit manner. We simply do not know either way.

- we get the little bit of information is that Porte might sound close to Michael when he's trying to mimic Michael. It's hard to say how correct this assessment without hearing it ourselves. Further examination of Porte could be beneficial to any future discussion. For example in regards to accent / pronunciation Tennessee (where porte is born), NJ / NJ (where he lives) and Maryland (where Malachi is from) is all part of the larger Upper South or Appalachian English dialect. Although it's a possibility - something that we discussed for a long time actually, We simply do not know either way.

- we learn that this person wasn't given Michael's vocals. It can be explained in either saying they didn't have any Michael vocals or that they wanted to protect them from leaking (given the earlier HMH leak) therefore didn't send them for a rough mix. We simply do not know either way.

- similarly june 27 copyright registration could be evaluated from different perspectives. While doubters are having suspicion of the timing , this new piece of information can bring a theory that the registration simply happened after they received the rough mixes and added the MJ vocals- as they needed to submit sound recordings with the registration. We simply do not know either way.


note: this person clearly uses "rough mixes" term which is generally a very quick, very rough, not much thought given version to just to give an idea to the parties involved. It actually makes quite the sense to not to give MJ vocals for such a preliminary work. Companies are known to withhold on the lead vocals to the artists (and send guide vocals by studio musicians) until the final mix and even sometimes require the work to be done in their own premises under lock and key. For major artists many record companies would not allow any work to leave their premises. So actually it makes a lot less sense to believe that Porte would say "here you go take Michael Jackson's vocals" to this person that seems to be a small time musician and worked with people we didn't even heard about. Everything we heard that every vocal is kept under lock and key, even William and Akon etc confirmed Michael's wish to hold on to his vocals, stop the leaks and so on.

Why would they need to do rough mixes as you described them (a very quick, very rough, not much thought given version to just to give an idea to the parties involved) when the songs were already recorded 3 times - first time originally by Porte, second time Porte's guide vocals for Michael and third time by Michael Jackson himself. They pretty much "had an idea".

The only logical explanation for me is that Porte recorded these songs by himself in 2005-2006. Michael came to Cascios in 2007 and heard the songs. Maybe he liked some of them, not all 12 for sure (remember Ne-Yo, much more talented and respected songwriter than Eddie Cascio. Ne-Yo wrote bunch of songs for Michael, Michael would listen his demos and tell him over the telephone which songs did he like and what parts should be changed). He may have said to Eddie that he might record some of the songs for his new album (remember that he worked with Akon, RedOne, will.i.am, Neff-U for that album and by himself of course). He might have changed few lyrics, added some melody, helped to write those songs. But he did not record a single word in that studio. He then said to Eddie and Porte to make a "rough mixes" for those songs with Porte's vocals as guide vocals so he can listen to them - just like Ne-Yo did or R Kelly in the past. Rough mixes were done, but MJ died. And even if he lived and even if he got those mixes in London I doubt that he would record all 12 of them and doubt that any of the songs would end up being on the new album.

 

[WildStyle]

You're making too much sense lol.

 

[ivy]

No offense to Korgnex, but he also seemed pretty sure countless times when he said that the truth would come out within weeks or months, and it never did thus far.

actually while saying that Korgnex was referring to Birchey. After his arrest, he told many of us that he would release a statement, the truth will come out etc. within a week or so. But he didn't do it and know you have to wait for the trial for it. I don't see the sense in blaming Korgnex for repeating what Birchey said.

Oh that's so wrong Ivy. Your argument is turned upside down! Are you saying that the two demos are doubted? No one doubts the authenticity of teh two demos. The songs that is doubted is the Cascio one, not the other way round. So if peopel suggest to compare "too bad" from monster with "Al Capone" proves one thing: that people doubt the Cascio authentricity and that people use Al Capone as a reference, not as doubted vocals.

Don't limit yourself to the world of MJJC. Take a look to twitter for example. There have been people questioning if "too bad" was Malachi and if the vocals were being faked and going on a tangent saying "if Friedman is saying their legit, they should be fake" and so on. I saw a couple people on twitter saying they lifted "too bad" from Monster and added it to Al Capone. There were a group of people that doubted the demos to some extent even before listening it in full.

Why would they need to do rough mixes as you described them (a very quick, very rough, not much thought given version to just to give an idea to the parties involved) when the songs were already recorded 3 times - first time originally by Porte, second time Porte's guide vocals for Michael and third time by Michael Jackson himself. They pretty much "had an idea".

Give ideas to the musicians , producers etc. We don't know how the original songs were, perhaps they only had keyboards or guitar. they could have arranged the music and went to this guy asking to "record tracks" of the other instruments (drums, bas etc) and give it a quick rough mix so the songs should be showcased as a decent demo and give the people the chance to see how it could be when properly completed.

The only logical explanation for me is that Porte recorded these songs by himself in 2005-2006. Michael came to Cascios in 2007 and heard the songs. Maybe he liked some of them, not all 12 for sure (remember Ne-Yo, much more talented and respected songwriter than Eddie Cascio. Ne-Yo wrote bunch of songs for Michael, Michael would listen his demos and tell him over the telephone which songs did he like and what parts should be changed). He may have said to Eddie that he might record some of the songs for his new album (remember that he worked with Akon, RedOne, will.i.am, Neff-U for that album and by himself of course). He might have changed few lyrics, added some melody, helped to write those songs. But he did not record a single word in that studio. He then said to Eddie and Porte to make a "rough mixes" for those songs with Porte's vocals as guide vocals so he can listen to them - just like Ne-Yo did or R Kelly in the past. Rough mixes were done, but MJ died. And even if he lived and even if he got those mixes in London I doubt that he would record all 12 of them and doubt that any of the songs would end up being on the new album.

I agree with this as a possible scenario - obviously not the vocals part. I also never said he would have used the 12 songs. Perhaps 1 will make it it's way to the album or they would be reworked for years and only released in later albums.

 

[OnirMJ]

Don't limit yourself to the world of MJJC. Take a look to twitter for example. There have been people questioning if "too bad" was Malachi and if the vocals were being faked and going on a tangent saying "if Friedman is saying their legit, they should be fake" and so on. I saw a couple people on twitter saying they lifted "too bad" from Monster and added it to Al Capone. There were a group of people that doubted the demos to some extent even before listening it in full.

Those people are idiots.

 

[Chamife]

From what I understand Teddy Riley 'finished' the song and according to him it's Michael on the songs. He put pictures of Michael on the walls and really tried to feel Michael's spirit when he finished them.
But in the other studio, the Majestic one, Michael's voice wasn't on the tracks, so where in the whole process were Michael's vocals added? And who did that? And is that a 'normal' way to handle this?
What I also think is strange is that Michael normally was involved in the whole production process from A to Z. Was he nowhere to be found when Eddie Cascio and James Porte were remixing (rough mixes) the songs at that Majestic studio? That's an important process too, I assume. So I'm curious whether Michael had any contact with that studio or that the founder of the studio can tell a bit more about it. Like what songs were recorded for instance. And maybe there are other interesting questions too, but I haven't found the time yet to think about them.
And why did Eddie Casio and James Porte (or whomever) choose that studio? It wasn't an established studio or very well known, they just started in 2009 under that name. Didn't Michael always want the best? Or was there a reason for that? And why didn't they credit that studio? Were other studio's or people also not credited or only the studio where the Cascio songs were recorded? Just forgot? Or was it for other reasons?
Many questions.

 

[ivy]

I don't know the "normal" process but I can tell you what I experienced. I used to work with a pop-rock band.

The lead singer also wrote many of the songs. He would generally start by writing some lyrics and then working on them with his guitar and recording himself during the process. It would be relax environment with alcohol and cigarettes. For example he would record himself playing chords on this guitar singing " I love you baby" take a break change baby to girl , take a sip from his drink and again start singing "I love you girl". They called it the skeletons, very first and rough ideas of a song. Imagine the start of - (I Like) The Way You Love Me, how Michael giving ideas about the song.

He would then give these to another member who does many of the music accompanied with his ideas. This second person would work on the music, mainly using keyboards, synthesizers, computer etc. They would bounce ideas, finalize stuff and then record the vocals again - in a one take quick fashion. This would be what they call a demo.

This demo would then wait around until the album time and shown to the producer. Producer would provide input and even make changes such as a ballad could turn into a mid tempo song, new verses added, parts taken out and so on. After that the musicians would come and start recording, drums, guitars, strings etc. When all done finally the lead will go and record his vocals. Doing multiple takes, laying multiple tracks (lead, background, adlibs). Then the song would go to mastering and mixing and then be considered a finished song and could be released in an album. (Everything from the first rough draft and the demo would be discarded by now and would not make their way to the final song. For example guide vocals would be replaced by the final vocals, an actual drummer would play the drums and so on)

-------------

The more I learn the more I think these songs were "skeletons" in other words rough ideas. Perhaps Eddie was pushing buttons on his keyboard coming up with chords while Michael was singing bits and pieces here and there. Giving ideas and suggestions. Then shortly before Michael's death and soon later when he was supposed to start to work on an album, these were turned into demos. The brainstorming ideas were told to this guy to record tracks (instruments) and do a rough mix. Therefore the songs would become presentable to the producers and other people and could be worked on them more. If Michael didn't die the songs would be worked on and might and might not make their way on the next album. But he died and they were left with a bunch of ideas and some vocals which are patched together to finish them. Being worked on in the later years and the plans to work on them more probably made them desirable to be added to the first release.

 

[kreen]

A few more points : the engineer himself (the one we've been talking about) thinks that the released songs are authentic, and feature MJ's vocals.

From the very beginning, and I mean from the official statement from Sony regarding the "history" of the "Michael" album, the official story has been that the MJ vocals we heard on the album were "demo" and "guide" vocals. I don't now if everybody here understands what that means : that means that, in 2007, when Eddie/James gave the music tracks to the engineer, they did not have any MJ vocals that, even if they wanted to (which they wouldn't, for fear of leaks), they could have just added to the tracks. What they had was a bunch of takes, that the only way they could have tacked on the music tracks was if they had done a huge deal of editing on them. And they had no reason to do that at that point.

Here, I have a question for the people who have done a good job analysing the released songs. Is the lead vocal of Monster or Breaking News a single, continuing vocal, or is it made up of spliced words and phrases? Like, I remember somebody saying that the "you're breaking the news" hook in BN is actually spliced from two different parts "breaking", and "the news". Is that true?

 

[OnirMJ]

From what I understand Teddy Riley 'finished' the song and according to him it's Michael on the songs. He put pictures of Michael on the walls and really tried to feel Michael's spirit when he finished them.
But in the other studio, the Majestic one, Michael's voice wasn't on the tracks, so where in the whole process were Michael's vocals added? And who did that? And is that a 'normal' way to handle this?
What I also think is strange is that Michael normally was involved in the whole production process from A to Z. Was he nowhere to be found when Eddie Cascio and James Porte were remixing (rough mixes) the songs at that Majestic studio? That's an important process too, I assume. So I'm curious whether Michael had any contact with that studio or that the founder of the studio can tell a bit more about it. Like what songs were recorded for instance. And maybe there are other interesting questions too, but I haven't found the time yet to think about them.
And why did Eddie Casio and James Porte (or whomever) choose that studio? It wasn't an established studio or very well known, they just started in 2009 under that name. Didn't Michael always want the best? Or was there a reason for that? And why didn't they credit that studio? Were other studio's or people also not credited or only the studio where the Cascio songs were recorded? Just forgot? Or was it for other reasons?
Many questions.

Teddy Riley worked on the mixes that Cascios submitted (sold) to Sony. Those mixes are mixes that leaked last year (30 sec snippets of all 12 songs). On those mixes the lead vocals sound the same as on the finished versions, same vibrato, same everything and that was before "processing" done by Teddy. Cascios hired engineers at Majestic studios to do rough mixes with James Porte vocals as guide vocals = demos "that Michael would sing to". Those mixes were done in June 2009. Cascios then added lead vocalist (whoever he is) and submitted (sold) those tracks to Sony, but not until March 2010 when the Estate signed $250M deal with Sony. Other friends and producers submitted their work with Michael for free like Brad Buxer did much earlier than Cascios.

 

[SoCav]

actually while saying that Korgnex was referring to Birchey. After his arrest, he told many of us that he would release a statement, the truth will come out etc. within a week or so. But he didn't do it and know you have to wait for the trial for it. I don't see the sense in blaming Korgnex for repeating what Birchey said.

I did not even know he said this again after Birchey's arrest. I was referring to several earlier instances (before Birchey was arrested) where Korgnex said that the truth would come out or more information would come to light within a certain time. This also happened on MaxJax (where many of the posters who are active in this topic were also posting at the time).

It's not a huge deal to me. The reason I brought it up is merely that kreen was claiming that Korgnex proved that Porte is singing a part of the lead vocals on Monster, even though Korgnex did not show any proof for his claim - which is therefore not worth more than the opinions of the rest of us. Kreen then said that he seemed quite sure of himself (and thus it must be true), which reminded me of earlier statements of his where he seemed quite sure of himself, but which did not turn out to be true.

Give ideas to the musicians , producers etc. We don't know how the original songs were, perhaps they only had keyboards or guitar. they could have arranged the music and went to this guy asking to "record tracks" of the other instruments (drums, bas etc) and give it a quick rough mix so the songs should be showcased as a decent demo and give the people the chance to see how it could be when properly completed.

What came to my mind here though is that MJ was known to generally work on the music first and to then finish the lyrics and deliver vocals, once the music had reached a certain stage of completion. This is unlike some other songwriters/performers who work the other way around and also the reason why some people think there might not be many as unreleased songs with (full) vocals available as many of us initially thought.

It is possible that he for some reason strayed from this general approach when he worked on these tracks (for 12 whole songs though?), but it would be out of the ordinary for him to do so.

 

[OnirMJ]

A few more points : the engineer himself (the one we've been talking about) thinks that the released songs are authentic, and feature MJ's vocals.

From the very beginning, and I mean from the official statement from Sony regarding the "history" of the "Michael" album, the official story has been that the MJ vocals we heard on the album were "demo" and "guide" vocals. I don't now if everybody here understands what that means : that means that, in 2007, when Eddie/James gave the music tracks to the engineer, they did not have any MJ vocals that, even if they wanted to (which they wouldn't, for fear of leaks), they could have just added to the tracks. What they had was a bunch of takes, that the only way they could have tacked on the music tracks was if they had done a huge deal of editing on them. And they had no reason to do that at that point.

Here, I have a question for the people who have done a good job analysing the released songs. Is the lead vocal of Monster or Breaking News a single, continuing vocal, or is it made up of spliced words and phrases? Like, I remember somebody saying that the "you're breaking the news" hook in BN is actually spliced from two different parts "breaking", and "the news". Is that true?

Hollywood Tonight is a demo too and it sounds perfectly fine (it was recorded at a hotel room) and you can hear MJ talking over it like he always do on demos. Beatboxing, finger snaps, clapping... Where is all that on Cascio songs?
Behind the Mask is a demo too, recorded in Michael Jackson's house. It sounds perfectly fine. Again you can hear all characteristic MJ vocal stuff.
(I Like) The Way You Love Me intro is recorded on telephone answering machine and it sounds better than any Cascio song, it sounds like Michael Jackson.

And Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' 2008 was recorded in that very same "crappy" studio, but surprisingly it sounds perfectly fine.

 

[kreen]

As a follow-up to my earlier post, it would really be interesting to see, if we take all 12 Cascio songs, to what degree the actual vocals on them can be reconciled to the idea that Eddie/James had guide/demo vocals only to work with. If that theory is true (the idea that they were working with demo vocals), we should expect the finished tracks to feature a lot of cut-and-paste parts, repeated lines/choruses/verses, fill-in from James Porte, etc. Do the actual songs bear this out? Ah, if only I had all 12 Cascio songs, I could do this analysis myself...

 

[OnirMJ]

As a follow-up to my earlier post, it would really be interesting to see, if we take all 12 Cascio songs, to what degree the actual vocals on them can be reconciled to the idea that Eddie/James had guide/demo vocals only to work with. If that theory is true (the idea that they were working with demo vocals), we should expect the finished tracks to feature a lot of cut-and-paste parts, repeated lines/choruses/verses, fill-in from James Porte, etc. Do the actual songs bear this out? Ah, if only I had all 12 Cascio songs, I could do this analysis myself...

Again Hollywood Tonight, Behind the Mask vocals are also demo vocals recorded in home studio. Why those vocals sound perfectly fine and like Michael Jackson?

 

[kreen]

Hollywood Tonight is a demo too and it sounds perfectly fine (it was recorded at a hotel room) and you can hear MJ talking over it like he always do on demos. Beatboxing, finger snaps, clapping... Where is all that on Cascio songs?
Behind the Mask is a demo too, recorded in Michael Jackson's house. It sounds perfectly fine. Again you can hear all characteristic MJ vocal stuff.
(I Like) The Way You Love Me intro is recorded on telephone answering machine and it sounds better than any Cascio song, it sounds like Michael Jackson.

And Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' 2008 was recorded in that very same "crappy" studio, but surprisingly it sounds perfectly fine.

That's your subjective opinion. Hollywood Tonight doesn't sound perfectly fine to my ears -- in fact, I think that if that song had been mistakenly labelled "Cascio", it would have been used as exhibit A against the authenticity of all the tracks. The vocals are muffled, they sound processed, and they're lower than usual. It doesn't sound like classic MJ from the Thriller days, that's for sure. If you were to take anyone from the street and ask them whether HT or KYHU sounds more like the MJ they know from the radio, they'd say KYHU.

WBSS 2008 are final, meant-for-release, polished vocals. BN and Monster are guide, demo vocals, always meant to be left on the editing room's floor. Big difference.

 

[kreen]

Again Hollywood Tonight, Behind the Mask vocals are also demo vocals recorded in home studio. Why those vocals soun perfectly fine and like Michael Jackson?

Hollywood Tonight is incredibly incomplete : there's like two verses and one chorus, and the final song is extended through a lot of gimmicks like a spoken-word bridge. Behind the Mask is also incomplete, with at least a verse being repeated on the finished song, and MJ singing nah-nah-nah when he forgets the words.

All of those songs -- Cascio tracks or not -- sound to me like they were sung by Michael Jackson. They don't sound like they were sung by Elvis Presley, Bob Dylan, John Lennon or Lady Gaga. They sound like MJ.

 

[OnirMJ]

That's your subjective opinion. Hollywood Tonight doesn't sound perfectly fine to my ears -- in fact, I think that if that song had been mistakenly labelled "Cascio", it would have been used as exhibit A against the authenticity of all the tracks. The vocals are muffled, they sound processed, and they're lower than usual. It doesn't sound like classic MJ from the Thriller days, that's for sure. If you were to take anyone from the street and ask them whether HT or KYHU sounds more like the MJ they know from the radio, they'd say KYHU.

WBSS 2008 are final, meant-for-release, polished vocals. BN and Monster are guide, demo vocals, always meant to be left on the editing room's floor. Big difference.

That's not subjective opinion. Hollywood Tonight sound perfectly fine, listen to demo snippet, not Teddy's version. And although it is processed is still sounds like MJ. On the other hand Cascio demos (30 sec snippets) before processing sound nothing like MJ. And do you honestly think that MJ during those recording sessions didn't once said anything to the microphone, or clap his hands, snap his fingers or just asked for another take?

All demos are not meant for release, like all the demos released today, like Behind the Mask, like all the demos released on the Ultimate Collection, and on all those demos Michael sounds like himself.

 

[Arklove]

If Hollywood Tonight or BTM were like any of the Cascio songs, vocal wise, we'd have just as vigorous a debate on those songs too...But, we don't....sooo.....what does that tell you? Yeah, they sound exactly like Michael Jackson, no doubts whatsoever...

 

[OnirMJ]

Hollywood Tonight is incredibly incomplete : there's like two verses and one chorus, and the final song is extended through a lot of gimmicks like a spoken-word bridge. Behind the Mask is also incomplete, with at least a verse being repeated on the finished song, and MJ singing nah-nah-nah when he forgets the words.

All of those songs -- Cascio tracks or not -- sound to me like they were sung by Michael Jackson. They don't sound like they were sung by Elvis Presley, Bob Dylan, John Lennon or Lady Gaga. They sound like MJ.

That is the point of demos. But on the Cascio demos the lead vocalist sings all the words, without any beatboxing or nah-nah-nah's. He did not forgot the words on Behind the Mask, he didn't write them yet - it is the writing process, like We Are The World, In the Back, Hollywood Tonight, Beautiful Girl, Free, Fall Again, Billie Jean Demo, Wanna Be Startin' Demo.. On all those songs he is making up words while he is singing. On Cascio songs on the other hand you have all the words (listen Breaking News accapella - that is just lead vocalist without background singers and James Porte) but not one of them sound like Michael Jackson.

Cascio tracks don't sound like they were sung by Elvis Presley, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Lady Gaga or Michael Jackson. They sound like Jason Malachi.

 

[SoCav]

that means that, in 2007, when Eddie/James gave the music tracks to the engineer, they did not have any MJ vocals that, even if they wanted to (which they wouldn't, for fear of leaks), they could have just added to the tracks.

Are you referring to the guys from Majestic Music Factory? Where do you get the idea from that they got the tracks in 2007? All it says on their website is that they spent 2 weeks working on it in June 2009.

What they had was a bunch of takes, that the only way they could have tacked on the music tracks was if they had done a huge deal of editing on them. And they had no reason to do that at that point.

What would be the difference between a bunch of guide vocals from MJ and a bunch of guide vocals from Porte (which they were apparently happy to use)?

Here, I have a question for the people who have done a good job analysing the released songs. Is the lead vocal of Monster or Breaking News a single, continuing vocal, or is it made up of spliced words and phrases? Like, I remember somebody saying that the "you're breaking the news" hook in BN is actually spliced from two different parts "breaking", and "the news". Is that true?

It's been established that several takes were used. That begs the question: if these were simple guide vocals that MJ casually recorded just to get a feel, why did he record several takes?

Also, what makes you think his guide vocals would be so crappy? He recorded Fall Again in one take. And for several of his released songs the first take was eventually the one chosen to be used as well.

And, as I mentioned above, why would he be recording vocals over tracks that were apparently still very rough drafts musically, when that was not his style?

That's your subjective opinion. Hollywood Tonight doesn't sound perfectly fine to my ears -- in fact, I think that if that song had been mistakenly labelled "Cascio", it would have been used as exhibit A against the authenticity of all the tracks. The vocals are muffled, they sound processed, and they're lower than usual. It doesn't sound like classic MJ from the Thriller days, that's for sure.

Rubbish.

And you do realize that apart from the fact that they sound lower than usual (no wonder if you are comparing them to the Thriller days), the things you mention here (that they sound muffled and processed) have to do with the recording quality/mixing rather than Michael's voice? All his vocal characteristics are there, unlike on the Cascio tracks.

 

[kreen]

Are you referring to the guys from Majestic Music Factory? Where do you get the idea from that they got the tracks in 2007? All it says on their website is that they spent 2 weeks working on it in June 2009.

I meant 2009, sorry.

Regarding James Porte's vocals that were used as a stand-in : I guess those must have been complete Porte vocals, either dating back from before MJ was involved (since a lot of those songs existed before MJ was even involved, as Friedman reported), or recorded after MJ worked on the tracks, but before he died. Listening to the songs, the only ones where you get the feeling that MJ might have been involved, lyric or melody-wise, are BN, Monster and KYHU. Stuff like All I Need, Soldier Boy, Stay, etc. : none of that sounds like MJ had much involvement in them.

Hey, did the engineer just delete his twitter account?

 

[SoCav]

I meant 2009, sorry.

Okay, no problem of course.

Regarding James Porte's vocals that were used as a stand-in : I guess those must have been complete Porte vocals, either dating back from before MJ was involved (since a lot of those songs existed before MJ was even involved, as Friedman reported), or recorded after MJ worked on the tracks, but before he died.

Alright, but what are your thoughts on the other things I mentioned? Why would MJ record several takes if he was only recording guide vocals just to get a feel? Especially when his other demos show that he was happy to use vocal takes on his demos that contained mumbling (if lyrics were incomplete) and him talking over the track and trying out different ad-libs and sounds. And if the music was so incomplete as has been suggested, why would he record vocals at all, given that this was not his style?

Listening to the songs, the only ones where you get the feeling that MJ might have been involved, lyric or melody-wise, are BN, Monster and KYHU. Stuff like All I Need, Soldier Boy, Stay, etc. : none of that sounds like MJ had much involvement in them.

To me none of them sound like MJ had any involvement in them.

Hey, did the engineer just delete his twitter account?

Still works for me:
https://twitter.com/majesticmusicny

 

[OnirMJ]

I meant 2009, sorry.

Regarding James Porte's vocals that were used as a stand-in : I guess those must have been complete Porte vocals, either dating back from before MJ was involved (since a lot of those songs existed before MJ was even involved, as Friedman reported), or recorded after MJ worked on the tracks, but before he died. Listening to the songs, the only ones where you get the feeling that MJ might have been involved, lyric or melody-wise, are BN, Monster and KYHU. Stuff like All I Need, Soldier Boy, Stay, etc. : none of that sounds like MJ had much involvement in them.

Hey, did the engineer just delete his twitter account?

There are only two options regarding James Porte guide vocals for Michael (the ones where he's impersonating Michael). Either he recorded them in 2007 (after he already recorded them himself not trying to sound like MJ according to Friedman) so that MJ can record his vocals at Cascios. There can't be guide vocals for MJ before MJ was even involved!

Other option which doesn't make ANY sense is that Porte recorded guide vocals in 2009 (although they had perfectly fine and complete MJ vocals recorded at Cascios) just for the purpose of sending those vocals to the engineers at Majestic studios so that they can make rough mixes.

You can not say that they did not have perfectly fine and complete MJ vocals when you know that MJ did not record anything for those songs in 2009. And you have 12 songs with complete verses, bridges and choruses sung by the lead vocalist that sounds like MJ to you (listen Breaking News accapella without any background vocals and James Porte). You can't have it both ways.

Then you have perfectly logical explanation. In 2007 MJ listened to those songs already recorded by Porte, he liked them, changed some parts, lyrics maybe but did not record anything. He said to Eddie and Porte to create demos for him to listen. Then they made rough mixes with Porte guide vocals for MJ (impersonating MJ like Ne-Yo would do, or R Kelly). But MJ died before he heard those new mixes.

 

[kreen]

There are only two options regarding James Porte guide vocals for Michael (the ones where he's impersonating Michael). Either he recorded them in 2007 (after he already recorded them himself not trying to sound like MJ according to Friedman) so that MJ can record his vocals at Cascios. There can't be guide vocals for MJ before MJ was even involved!

Other option which doesn't make ANY sense is that Porte recorded guide vocals in 2009 (although they had perfectly fine and complete MJ vocals recorded at Cascios) just for the purpose of sending those vocals to the engineers at Majestic studios so that they can make rough mixes.

You can not say that they did not have perfectly fine and complete MJ vocals when you know that MJ did not record anything for those songs in 2009. And you have 12 songs with complete verses, bridges and choruses sung by the lead vocalist that sounds like MJ to you (listen Breaking News accapella without any background vocals and James Porte). You can't have it both ways.

Then you have perfectly logical explanation. In 2007 MJ listened to those songs already recorded by Porte, he liked them, changed some parts, lyrics maybe but did not record anything. He said to Eddie and Porte to create demos for him to listen. Then they made rough mixes with Porte guide vocals for MJ (impersonating MJ like Ne-Yo would do, or R Kelly). But MJ died before he heard those new mixes.

I don’t know how to quote separate parts from a post, so I’ll just cut and paste each of your points:

“There are only two options regarding James Porte guide vocals for Michael (the ones where he's impersonating Michael). Either he recorded them in 2007 (after he already recorded them himself not trying to sound like MJ according to Friedman) so that MJ can record his vocals at Cascios. There can't be guide vocals for MJ before MJ was even involved!”

The engineer doesn’t say that the stand-in vox he received on the tracks were the producer trying to impersonate MJ; he says they were simply the producer singing, but that since the producer sounds a bit like MJ, that might be why some people thought it was not MJ on the final album. He also adds that what WAS in the end released on the CD sounds much more like MJ than James Porte did. So the stand-in vox he heard were probably James Porte’s original, pre-MJ vocals, recorded when he was still trying to market them as Bobby Ewing. On some of those songs, maybe he did “sound” like MJ, not to the extent that we fanatics might think, but close enough for the engineer to offer that possibility as an explanation for the controversy. We should try to ask the engineer to say more about that : does anyone volunteer?

“You can not say that they did not have perfectly fine and complete MJ vocals when you know that MJ did not record anything for those songs in 2009. And you have 12 songs with complete verses, bridges and choruses sung by the lead vocalist that sounds like MJ to you (listen Breaking News accapella without any background vocals and James Porte). You can't have it both ways.”

Yes, but that’s what I was asking earlier. Do we REALLY have fine and complete MJ vocals on the finished songs? If James Porte is singing the “too bad” part on Monster, doesn’t that mean that he’s actually singing half the song? So they wouldn’t have “fine and complete” vocals for that song. And what about “Breaking News” : if it is true that the final vocal is made up of different takes, that too could be an indication (aside from the possibility of an impersonator) that they didn’t have even ONE complete take of the song. And I mentioned earlier Burn 2Nite : did they even have a chorus at all for that song featuring MJ? And do all of the songs have bridges that are not sung by the “background vocalist”, whoever that is?

Your version of event is logical in terms of what could have happened, but it still involves of course the hoax being perpetrated and the subsequent conspiracy of silence being maintained, and that, I think, is very implausible.

My version of events is this. In 2007, MJ stays with the Cascios, and Eddie and James manage to get MJ to agree to spend time in the studio with them, “working” on the songs, changing lyrics on pieces of paper, maybe even creating a few songs from scratch (unlikely), and of course, they get MJ to sing some of those songs into the microphone : it would be incredible that, having convinced MJ to spend time in the studio with them, and having convinced him to “work” on the songs, they couldn’t get him to lay down some vocals for the songs, as demos, as guide vocals, or even just for fun. MJ did like to sing, I don’t find it hard to believe he would surely sing SOMETHING if he spent 4 months in a house with a studio and two musicians encouraging him to record.

Fast-forward two years later : MJ is getting ready to stage a comeback, so he agrees to “finish” or “continue” the recording of the Cascio songs in London. Eddie Cascio sends out his music tracks to be mixed : he uses as vocals either James Porte’s original tracks from when the songs were meant for his own career, or James Porte singing himself the lyrics that MJ wrote, but only half-recorded. In the same way, for instance, that he wrote lyrics for the bridge on HT, but never recorded that; so in that situation, maybe the producer of that track would have sung the bridge himself as a stand-in vocal. MJ’s vocals from 2007 are not put on the tracks because they would require a great deal of editing, are incomplete, and anyway they don’t want them to leak.

MJ dies. The Cascios immediately register everything they have. They take a long time to cut and paste and splice and dice whatever MJ vocals they have into presentable songs that, with a lot of Porte added, are felt to be commercially viable. And the rest is history.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

@ Kreen

So Eddie Cascio convinces a "wreck" and a "shell of a man" to record 12 songs and to work daily very hard on those songs (as Eddie suggests)?

 

[144000]

It's more than just MJ being MJ on the vocals. It's that MJ wasn't the final producer oF HT and BTM. As R. Kelly said, 'Michael knew what he wanted', and as much as R. Kelly might have wanted to have the last say on a song MJ had anything to do with, Kelly respected MJ having the last word. and, as Michael said about his battles with Motown, when he was little..'no matter how old you are, when someone's got 'it' and knows what a song should sound like, you should listen to them'. it's been discussed how Motown used to try to dictate how Michael should do a song, and then he would sing it differently, and then, Motown would realize that MJ's way was the right way. and i looked on iTunes and neither song on the 'Michael' album ranks high on the popularity meter, and the album is tanking mercilessly. Let's face it, if MJ isn't the last person putting the finishing touches on a song that has to do with MJ, whether his voice is on it or not, it might as well be a Cascio track. That's why the songs on the Jacksons albums that MJ hadn't put the finishing touches on, and usually didn't include MJ's voice, sucked.

 

[kreen]

@ Kreen

So Eddie Cascio convinces a "wreck" and a "shell of a man" to record 12 songs and to work daily very hard on those songs (as Eddie suggests)?

Who says he worked very hard on those songs? Four months is a LOT of time to record incomplete vocals for 12 songs. Heck, some of the greatest albums of all time were recorded in like a week!