Michael - The Great Album Debate

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I love the X-Files :wub2:
 
There is only one truth: the truth that we don't know the truth...

















...except the doubters who know that MJ is not singing on those tracks.
 
I think that people in this thread should follow my example and be relax. I am saying this in all modesty. I know, 'cuz no one in the world is as modest as I am. I am the very example of modesty, calm, patience, humility, and compassion.

One day, you too might be like me. I know it takes time, but patience is a virtue, so trust me, you'll get there eventually.

Here is a list of pieces of advice to evereyone inhere:

1) take off your clothes and sit naked in front of your computer
2) do not follow the first piece of advice
3) don't forget what I didn't say
4) forget what I said
5) shut up
 
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THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he,
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

*So these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL.

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!


The author of this text is a 13th century Persian muslim mystic, Djalal Al-Deen Rumi. His texts are awesome!
 
It's funny how everyone assumes that Michael's work would "bore" his children. It's pretty well known that they (especially Paris) were his shadow, and it's quite obvious that at the very least Paris was very interested in his work.

Michael sang to his children probably from the womb. He used to make tapes of his voice and get Debbie to put headphones around her stomach while she was pregnant. Yet they can't recognise his voice on 12 crystal clear recordings. Neither can at the very least half of his fan base. Why?

Why...why.......WHYYYYYYY+_deba5b3e16fb4dca34045b98332db3be.gif
 
"But the funniest part is that doubters believe it's not Michael Jackson on those tracks when clearly it is :D"

Yeah, it so clearly is that we have over 2000 pages of on-going debate with Branca confirming that no future release will contain any Cascio song. For someone who is supposed to have a strong proof that it's clearly MJ on those tracks, it's rather a strange approach.

Funny how they prefer NOT to release the 9 remaining supposed MJ songs rather than releasing their proof with the songs. To me this indicates that even if they might have some 'proofs', they are extremely weak. Releasing those 3 songs was already a 'massive mistake' dixit Branca.
 
We may not be any closer to the truth, but at least we have the fact that Branca personally assured the fans that the remaining tracks won't be released. If anything, that's progress and a small victory.

I see it as neither progress nor victory. Progress would be to be closer to the truth as to whether they are authentic or not. Victory would be for those songs to be released if they are authentic, and for the first 3 songs on "Michael" to be removed fom the market if they are fake.
 
Something a bit different. Hope no one is annoyed by this.

It's the last interview (from yesterday) with Barry Gibb. It's beautiful and emotional. Like I'm interested in Michael's way of creating, I'm also very interested in Barry's. After all, he once had 6 songs of his, with different artists, in the top 10 (if I heard it right). I'm all ears when he talks about music. For me they are also musical heroes.

Also funny parts in it. He mentions Michael (don't skip it!). Love what Michael told him about lyrics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BD4-U93tpo&feature=share&list=UUt758XuL918BVQra0yGw-cA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRZV9yEpen0&feature=share&list=UUt758XuL918BVQra0yGw-cA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=167iMCNPMdk&feature=share&list=UUt758XuL918BVQra0yGw-cA
^^He mentions Michael from the 1.40 part. (gonna post this in the lyrics thread..:D)

Hope you all enjoy it as much as I did.
 
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It's progress in the sense that Branca and McClain are listening to the fans on this matter, and it's a small victory because at least no more damage will be caused by the remaining tracks.
 
We also now know that the songs were being worked on as late as June 2009 without Michael's vocals on them. Now this doesn't exactly knock the believers theory out of the park, but it surely doesn't strengthen it.
 
We also now know that the songs were being worked on as late as June 2009 without Michael's vocals on them. Now this doesn't exactly knock the believers theory out of the park, but it surely doesn't strengthen it.

Uh, the man thanks to whom we even know this -- sound engineer Angelo Montrone -- for his part believes the songs are authentic, and says that there is no way they would have given him MJ's actual vocals, for fear of leaks.
 
Uh, the man thanks to whom we even know this -- sound engineer Angelo Montrone -- for his part believes the songs are authentic, and says that there is no way they would have given him MJ's actual vocals, for fear of leaks.
I read your emails and I didn't get that from him. He seemed pretty non-commital to give any real opinion. He was mostly theorising. He definitely didn't say "there is no way they would have given him MJ's actual vocals, for fear of leaks", so you might want to read your correspondence with him a bit more closely. He said that was a possible reason why he heard no MJ vocals. He originally was under the impression that MJ might have recorded the vocals in June 2009!

So as I said... doesn't knock the believers theory out of the park, but surely doesn't help.
 
It's progress in the sense that Branca and McClain are listening to the fans on this matter.

The way the anti-Cascio people refer to themselves as "the fans" is, well, annoying, but I'll let it pass.

By the way, here is a bit of disappointing news that ought to put things in perspective when the anti-Cascio people overestimate their numbers. I hear the new Bad 25 CD -- a very good product, as far as I'm concerned -- only moved 20 000 copies in its first week. So basically, that means there are now 20 000 hard-core MJ fans in the US. So even if 100 % of you had chosen not to buy the "Michael" album because of the controversy, that would have meant sales of 3 million copies minus 20 000. So the relative failure of that album had nothing to do with the small number of hardcore fans who even care about this issue.

Actually, 3 millions in sales is looking more and more like a huge success, compared to the sales we're seeing now...
 
I read your emails and I didn't get that from him. He seemed pretty non-commital to give any real opinion. He was mostly theorising. He definitely didn't say "there is no way they would have given him MJ's actual vocals, for fear of leaks", so you might want to read your correspondence with him a bit more closely. He said that was a possible reason why he heard no MJ vocals. He originally was under the impression that MJ might have recorded the vocals in June 2009!

So as I said... doesn't knock the believers theory out of the park, but surely doesn't help.

Yeah, what do I know about what he said, I was only the person who had the conversation with him!

"It made sense to me on a high profile project like this that they wouldn't send a track of MJ doing a rough because they'd be concerned about his vocal being leaked."
 
Yeah, what do I know about what he said, I was only the person who had the conversation with him!
Which you posted for everyone to read, so we all have as good idea as you do. And as it turns out, maybe even a better idea lol.
 
Yeah, what do I know about what he said, I was only the person who had the conversation with him!

"It made sense to me on a high profile project like this that they wouldn't send a track of MJ doing a rough because they'd be concerned about his vocal being leaked."

"there is no way they would have given him MJ's actual vocals, for fear of leaks"

Hmm, bit of a difference there kreen don't you think? And this was after you explained to him that there is no way that MJ could have recorded his vocals June 2009, so this wasn't even a reason given to him at the time. As I said... theorising. Kreen, if you can't be honest, people aren't going to take you arguments very seriously. You have to be honest to build trust. Maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt and put this down to a mistake in reading comprehension.

And it's for this reason I say, that it isn't the nail in the coffin of the believers argument, but it doesn't help.
 
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The way the anti-Cascio people refer to themselves as "the fans" is, well, annoying, but I'll let it pass.

By the way, here is a bit of disappointing news that ought to put things in perspective when the anti-Cascio people overestimate their numbers. I hear the new Bad 25 CD -- a very good product, as far as I'm concerned -- only moved 20 000 copies in its first week. So basically, that means there are now 20 000 hard-core MJ fans in the US. So even if 100 % of you had chosen not to buy the "Michael" album because of the controversy, that would have meant sales of 3 million copies minus 20 000. So the relative failure of that album had nothing to do with the small number of hardcore fans who even care about this issue.

Actually, 3 millions in sales is looking more and more like a huge success, compared to the sales we're seeing now...

The sales of Bad 25 should take a big leap after Thanksgiving and around christmas time, people will probably want to be getting the more expensive sets so that can be attributed to the lack of sales, "Michael" was a low priced CD if im not mistaken, I saw it for like $8 at some places.
 
Uh, the man thanks to whom we even know this -- sound engineer Angelo Montrone -- for his part believes the songs are authentic, and says that there is no way they would have given him MJ's actual vocals, for fear of leaks.

His sentences are nothing more but hypotheses. I highlighted his structures for the sake of clarity and, indeed, his logical approach is that the tracks are not fake, but before "Michael" was released no fan dared think that there would be any fakes on a MJ album. We were all prepared to hear MJ's authentic voice. However, after hearing the tracks, only then fans started to make their opinion. Some fans didn't know very well Malachi's voice, so when they heard the remaining unreleased tracks and when they compared it with Malachi's voice, they themselves made up their opinion and started to doubt the authenticity of the voice.

Now, how familiar is Angelo with Michael's voice and with Malachi's? We don't know. We do know from Angelo however that James Porte can sound as MJ. If James Porte to him can sound close to MJ, what would he say about Malachi's ability then?

The way the anti-Cascio people refer to themselves as "the fans" is, well, annoying, but I'll let it pass.

Since when a MJ fan is judged on the Cascio standards? Last time I checked Cascio does not equal to MJ.

I can on the contrary say that in reality, it is the "believers" that are the real doubters here. You believers actually doubt MJ's vocal capacities. You call MJ sick, wreck, and what not and undermine his lyrical and vocal talents. So, with such arguments, the pro-Cascios are actually acting as anti-Michael tabloid media believeing everything that is written and taking it as factual.

By the way, here is a bit of disappointing news that ought to put things in perspective when the anti-Cascio people overestimate their numbers. I hear the new Bad 25 CD -- a very good product, as far as I'm concerned -- only moved 20 000 copies in its first week. So basically, that means there are now 20 000 hard-core MJ fans in the US. So even if 100 % of you had chosen not to buy the "Michael" album because of the controversy, that would have meant sales of 3 million copies minus 20 000. So the relative failure of that album had nothing to do with the small number of hardcore fans who even care about this issue.

Bad is a re-issue, and many fans are reluctant to buy re-issues even though there are some demos and live CDs. Also, already in 1987, MJ wanted to release a double LP, (znd according to some rumors a triple one), but Quincy advized him not to as the sales would risk to suffer.

The re-issue of BAD cannot be compared to "Michael" which was labeled as a posthumous brand new album. The world mega star dies and an album comes out, it is sad, but his death contributed to the publicity of the sales, which is true for many artists when they die. So, they cannot be compared. Nonetheless, had there been no such controversy, "Michael" would have sold many more copies.

Actually, 3 millions in sales is looking more and more like a huge success, compared to the sales we're seeing now...

Many non-MJ fans bought it too, because of the star's death "hype".

Yeah, what do I know about what he said, I was only the person who had the conversation with him!

"It made sense to me on a high profile project like this that they wouldn't send a track of MJ doing a rough because they'd be concerned about his vocal being leaked."

Well it made sense to all of us, until we heard the actual voice, which did not sound as familiar as we were used to hear for over decades. The timbre was simply not MJ's. And those who hear MJ, I don't know how they make the distinction between the voices of James Porte, Malachi and MJ, because many "believers" say that James Porte's voice is used to "strengthen" MJ's vocals. Well I wonder at what point exactly we hear James Porte's voice on those Cascio songs, no believer clearly inidcated that.
 
Some MJ fans were fooled in 2007, so it's no surprise if some were fooled in 2010 and to this day. I just wish they would at least acknowledge that our arguments are very valid and quite plausible. We are not conspiracy theorists. Before all of this jumped off we were just normal fans like anyone else. No death hoax believing or any other clap-trap. Some of the smartest, most musically inclined members of this forum wholeheartedly believe that it isn't Michael singing on these tracks. All we ask for is a little R-E-S-P-E-C-T and some help in trying to solve this mess.
 
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We are not conspiracy theorists.

Like I've said before, and I use the words "conspiracy theory" in the most neutral, unpejorative way possible : if the songs are indeed fake, then a conspiracy has indeed taken place. The conspiracy involves Eddie Cascio, James Porte and the impersonator, and at least a number of their significant others. Other people like Teddy Riley or even Roger Friedman might also be involved. All of those people have conspired to hatch out a scheme, carried out the scheme, and kept a vow of silence over it ever since. That is the very definition of a conspiracy.

And don't retort, "well the believers also then are conspiracy theorists". We hold that nothing illegal or inappropriate took place, and that the events really went down according to the official version.
 
Here's hoping I was misinformed about the Bad 25 sales in the United States : this is an issue on which I would be HAPPY to be wrong if it turns out it actually did sell well!
 
Like I've said before, and I use the words "conspiracy theory" in the most neutral, unpejorative way possible : if the songs are indeed fake, then a conspiracy has indeed taken place. The conspiracy involves Eddie Cascio, James Porte and the impersonator, and at least a number of their significant others. Other people like Teddy Riley or even Roger Friedman might also be involved. All of those people have conspired to hatch out a scheme, carried out the scheme, and kept a vow of silence over it ever since. That is the very definition of a conspiracy.

And don't retort, "well the believers also then are conspiracy theorists". We hold that nothing illegal or inappropriate took place, and that the events really went down according to the official version.
Let's first wait until we know for sure what we want to know.

You can call me whatever you want after that.
 
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