Michael - The Great Album Debate

[WildStyle]

@Ivy : I find it hard to believe, if MJ did not record those 12 songs, that the whole family could somehow think he did, when the whole thing had to happen in their own house. I'm aware not everything that goes on in a given household is known to every member of said household, but a world-famous megastar recording in the basement is something that I would think Eddie would have mentioned to his parents when they came home from the restaurant.

Well you would think Michael's children would be aware of it too, but alas...

Unless we are going with the theory that they have no interest in their fathers affairs and were not around for a single moment of the recordings. Which you can go with if you want, but sounds like BS to me.

 

[ivy]

Well you would think Michael's children would be aware of it too, but alas...

Unless we are going with the theory that they have no interest in their fathers affairs and were not around for a single moment of the recordings. Which you can go with if you want, but sounds like BS to me.

when I was 10,9 or 5 , I didn't give a damn about my father's business affairs or work. I had more important stuff such as games and school and being a kid. Again they might be aware that their father hang in the basement doing music but I would find it unlikely that kids that young would memorize the songs and be able to remember them 3 years later.

same goes to the family. it's no secret that Michael recorded there. It doesn't mean that they would know that what he actually recorded or not recorded.

 

[elapentela]

You are missing the point. Cascio tracks are huge stain in Michael Jackson's perfect discography. Majority of hardcore fans will not get over it, they will never forget it, they lost confidence in the Estate and they will not support anything released by the Estate until they remove those songs from MJ's discography, apologize to the fans and clean the mess they created. They will never give up, they will boycott every release and spread the word about fake songs and invite people to boycott. Cascio songs were the turning point in Michael Jackson's posthumous career, nothing will be the same. Those songs triggered all, including poor sales of MICHAEL, Immortal and now Bad 25. Numbers are smaller and smaller with each release. I just hope the Estate will realize that.

As much as you hate Cascios it still Michael Jackson singing in their house. Your opinion and wishes won't change anything. Your last post shows very clearly that you would not change your opinion regarding the controversial songs even if you would see the video of MJ recording the songs. You still don't understand that there are fans and professionals who absolutely believe it's Michael singing on all songs. I also don't believe that in the future all Cascios songs won't be released. I'm positive that all material will be publish one day and not necessary by the present executors. I believe that in future MJ's children may want to do some projects about their stay in different places
with their father and they will definitely include NJ home and what he was doing over there. You and some others will hate it (because of the Cascio name) but I and many other fans will love it.

 

[elapentela]

yup


It’s ok Ivy. Anyway I think it’s not forbidden to say that “All I need” has not a single hiccup in the entire song

And what about me ( the fan who changed the citizenship because of MJ) who just doesn't like Michael's hiccups and was very happy that he was able to forget about it from time to time.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

As much as you hate Cascios it still Michael Jackson singing in their house. Your opinion and wishes won't change anything. Your last post shows very clearly that you would not change your opinion regarding the controversial songs even if you would see the video of MJ recording the songs. You still don't understand that there are fans and professionals who absolutely believe it's Michael singing on all songs. I also don't believe that in the future all Cascios songs won't be released. I'm positive that all material will be publish one day and not necessary by the present executors. I believe that in future MJ's children may want to do some projects about their stay in different places
with their father and they will definitely include NJ home and what he was doing over there. You and some others will hate it (because of the Cascio name) but I and many other fans will love it.

As much as you love Cascios it still is not Michael Jackson singing in their house. Your opinion and wishes won't change anything. Your last post shows very clearly that you would not change your opinion regarding the controversial songs even if you still do not see the video of MJ recording the songs. You still don't understand that there are fans and professionals who absolutely don't believe it's Michael singing on any Cascio songs. I also believe that in the future no Cascios songs will be released. I'm positive that not all material will be published one day and not necessary by the present executors. I believe that in future MJ's children may want to do some projects about their stay in different places
with their father and they will definitely not include NJ home and what he was not doing over there. You and some others will hate it (not to see the Cascio songs released) but I and many other fans will love it.




------

That was extremely easy. What a weak argument.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

when I was 10,9 or 5 , ...

Make up your mind. Were you 10 and 9 months or 5?

 

[WildStyle]

when I was 10,9 or 5 , I didn't give a damn about my father's business affairs or work. I had more important stuff such as games and school and being a kid. Again they might be aware that their father hang in the basement doing music but I would find it unlikely that kids that young would memorize the songs and be able to remember them 3 years later.

same goes to the family. it's no secret that Michael recorded there. It doesn't mean that they would know that what he actually recorded or not recorded.

Was your father Michael Jackson? Was he a world famous recording artist? Or something more mundane? Did you aspire to be just like him when you grew up as Paris did Michael? Was your Dad a single parent that you were basically with almost 24/7? Michael's children used to go to recording studios to watch him record. Was it all of a sudden not allowed because it was happening in a home that they were staying in instead of a studio? Do you know what your fathers voice sounds like? etc...

 

[elapentela]

Was your father Michael Jackson? Was he a world famous recording artist? Or something more mundane? Did you aspire to be just like him when you grew up as Paris did Michael? Was your Dad a single parent that you were basically with almost 24/7? Michael's children used to go to recording studios to watch him record. Was it all of a sudden not allowed because it was happening in a home that they were staying in instead of a studio? Do you know what your fathers voice sounds like? etc...

Again, MJ's children didn't even attend one rehearsal for TII. How you explain this? They suddenly lost their interest in their father production work?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Again, MJ's children didn't even attend one rehearsal for TII. How you explain this? They suddenly lost their interest in their father production work?

But they knew what their father was doing though.

 

[WildStyle]

Again, MJ's children didn't even attend one rehearsal for TII. How you explain this? They suddenly lost their interest in their father production work?

Except it was explicitly stated by people who worked on the show that Michael wanted to surprise his children on opening night.

 

[144000]

Wow, the level of denial is strong in this thread.

First, the sales of the "Michael" album WERE disappointing to Sony, as in evidenced by the fact that they shipped 5 million copies, and sold 2.5. The first single barely cracked the Top 40, and no other singles were released. So it underperformed.

Why did it underperform? It pleases the anti-Cascio people to think it's because of those 3 songs, because it validates their opinion that "the people" or "the fans" agree with their position that the songs are fake, and they like to think the Cascios/Sony/the Estate were thus "punished" for their sin of releasing the tracks. But there aren't that many hard-core MJ fans left in the world (they are obviously over-represented on MJ forums), not all of them (despite what the anti-Cascio people like to think) think the songs are fake, and even among those that do think so, many still bought the album. So there's no way that controversy -- which to the general public was a 2-day media item that was just more craziness from the Jackson world -- explains why the album missed expectations by 2.5 million copies.

So WHY did it underperform? I think it's quite simple : by December 2010, the MJ love-in that followed his death was already dying down. If the album had come out in the months following his death, it might have sold more. Of course, some people -- maybe in the tens of thousands -- boycotted the album because of the many reasons cited before, including the Cascio controversy, but not to the extent of 2.5 million copies.

Regarding Bad 25 now. It is not just a flop, it is a HUGE flop. Of course it is a re-release, and must be treated as such. But if I'd told anybody here a few months ago, "you know, that Bad 25 release will only sell 27 000 copies in its first week in the US", you would have all called me crazy. It's not just the regular album : you get a live CD -- the first MJ live CD ever! --, a live DVD, 6 new songs, 3 remixes, etc. You're telling me you're not heartbroken this only sold 27,000 copies?

Of course, maybe the Spike Lee film will spur sales, but I'll go as far as say that ABC would not even have bought the movie if they had known the sales of the album would be so low. I'm pretty sure the Estate didn't not sell ABC on buying the movie by telling them the album would sell 27.000 copies.

a lot of that denial includes your post. There are MANY die hard MJ fans. you take them for dumb. They know fake when they hear it, and they don't buy fake. plus you are a first week person. You can't determine sales by the first week. you gotta wait for many years. MJ is the biggest selling artist of all time. It takes having many die hard fans to maintain that for many years, as MJ did. and still does.

 

[OnirMJ]

@Ivy : I find it hard to believe, if MJ did not record those 12 songs, that the whole family could somehow think he did, when the whole thing had to happen in their own house. I'm aware not everything that goes on in a given household is known to every member of said household, but a world-famous megastar recording in the basement is something that I would think Eddie would have mentioned to his parents when they came home from the restaurant.

@OnirMJ : I'm not using "anti-Cascio" for any particular reason; it's just a term I use. I can use anti-fake, or doubter; they're all synonyms to me. I mean "anti-Cascio" in the sense of "anti-Cascio SONGS". As a token of my good faith, I'll use "doubters" from now on. Let's not get hung up on words.

@Stella : Not surprised you would put me on ignore : it's so convenient to just ignore posts, opinions or info that contradict one's way of thinking. I've never put anyone on ignore my whole life, because I'd rather debate people who offend or disagree with me rather than hide from what they have to say. I can assure you that, at my age, with a wife and two kids, life is too short to "troll" on an Internet forum. But debating and finding out about the truth is a worthwhile entreprise at any age!

@Korgnex : isn't Birchey the guy who hacked Sony's servers and got out with a bunch of songs and screenshots? So he certainly has access to info I don't have.

Of course his parents and brothers and sister would know. But the same is with MJ kids - they would know if such things happened. But few pages back you were saying that it is possible that MJ never told him a word about those sessions and that it is possible that they never heard him recording the songs.

"doubters" is fine. Thanks.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

"doubters" is fine. Thanks.

Well, I don't mind being called "anti-Cascio people" if the believers accept to be called "anti-Michael Jackson people".

 

[OnirMJ]

when I was 10,9 or 5 , I didn't give a damn about my father's business affairs or work. I had more important stuff such as games and school and being a kid. Again they might be aware that their father hang in the basement doing music but I would find it unlikely that kids that young would memorize the songs and be able to remember them 3 years later.

same goes to the family. it's no secret that Michael recorded there. It doesn't mean that they would know that what he actually recorded or not recorded.

Because your father's business is probably boring for 10,9 or 5 y.o. kids. Everyone would enjoy hearing brand new Michael Jackson songs even 10,9 or 5 y.o. kids.

 

[OnirMJ]

As much as you hate Cascios it still Michael Jackson singing in their house. Your opinion and wishes won't change anything. Your last post shows very clearly that you would not change your opinion regarding the controversial songs even if you would see the video of MJ recording the songs. You still don't understand that there are fans and professionals who absolutely believe it's Michael singing on all songs. I also don't believe that in the future all Cascios songs won't be released. I'm positive that all material will be publish one day and not necessary by the present executors. I believe that in future MJ's children may want to do some projects about their stay in different places
with their father and they will definitely include NJ home and what he was doing over there. You and some others will hate it (because of the Cascio name) but I and many other fans will love it.

Of course he sang in their house. That is a fact. Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' 2008. Maybe he even sang some of the Cascio tracks. Too bad for them that he did not record a single word for those songs.

Again it's not about their name. Those songs will never be released (but they will leak so you will be happy) especially when children get older.

 

[OnirMJ]

Well, I don't mind being called "anti-Cascio people" if the believers accept to be called "anti-Michael Jackson people".

The most correct term would be "Anti Cascio tracks people". But "doubters" is fine too although I don't doubt that Cascio songs are fake, I'm sure.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

The most correct term would be "Anti Cascio tracks people". But "doubters" is fine too although I don't doubt that Cascio songs are fake, I'm sure.

How about calling "told-to-believe-so-by-the-Estate" or "Cascio fans" or "The Estate fans" for "believers" and "MJ fans" for "doubters?

 

[Pentum]

I'll be the first guy to say I am anti-Eddie at least. What a bastard selling songs like this to Sony and betraying Michael.

 

[OnirMJ]

I'll be the first guy to say I am anti-Eddie at least. What a bastard selling songs like this to Sony and betraying Michael.

But you are "anti-Eddie" because of the songs he created. It is all about the songs. That is the point. But when they say "anti-Cascio" it sounds like we have an agenda against their family, that it is some crazy conspiracy theory and that we hate them just because they are the Cascios and we don't hear Michael in their songs just because we hate the family. That is not true. There is no conspiracy theory. I'm sure you didn't have anything against Eddie and the Cascios before Breaking News streamed. I even supported them back then, I trusted them, I wanted to hear their songs, I didn't believe a word that Jacksons were saying.

 

[WildStyle]

The 'Michael' album isn't without it's bright spots. At least one. Just listened to "Best Of Joy" again for the first time in quite some time. So beautiful. Michael hadn't lost a step at all. He was still head and shoulders above all of his peers.

 

[ivy]

Make up your mind. Were you 10 and 9 months or 5?

You are smart enough to know that I was writing Prince (10), Paris (9) and Blanket (5) 's ages in 2007.

Was your father Michael Jackson? Was he a world famous recording artist? Or something more mundane? Did you aspire to be just like him when you grew up as Paris did Michael? Was your Dad a single parent that you were basically with almost 24/7? Michael's children used to go to recording studios to watch him record. Was it all of a sudden not allowed because it was happening in a home that they were staying in instead of a studio? Do you know what your fathers voice sounds like? etc...

Because your father's business is probably boring for 10,9 or 5 y.o. kids. Everyone would enjoy hearing brand new Michael Jackson songs even 10,9 or 5 y.o. kids.

You are failing to realize that to you he's "Michael Jackson the superstar" but to his kids he was just "daddy". You also need to remember that he kept who he was and what he was doing for his kids for quite some time (watch Paris's interview with Oprah). Also just because he's a single dad doesn't mean that the kids would be glued to him 24/ 7. They had nannies and people watching over them, they had school to attend (what Dominic Jr said), they have bed times. Also as I said even though they might have been in the studio at times it's unrealistic to expect kids that young (10,9,5) to memorize the songs and be able to remember them perfectly 3 years later (2010). It's a scientifically established fact that kids have limited memory when compared to adults. Don't kid yourself about the attention span of the kids. Even today you can see Paris to stan for other artists more than her dad. It's all because she see him as her dad and not the superstar and the rest as the people to be a fan of. Don't put pressure on the still minor kids.

 

[WildStyle]

He tried to keep it a secret, but it didn't quite work out. Also there is the private movie of a little Paris, when asked by MJ what she wanted to do when she grows up -

Paris - I want to do what you do.
MJ - What do I do?
Paris - You dance and sing.
MJ - Dance and sing? Is that what you want to do, really?
Paris - *nods head

In the end, although I am not necessarily 100% right, neither are you.

 

[Jesta]

OK, I want to conduct a social experiment (because I have no other fun while being this sick and bedridden):

Let me throw out a hypothetical situation: SONY and the Estate announce that - due to the trouble the tracks have caused - they are discontinuing production on the "Michael" album and the three Cascio tracks are being taken off of the online market. Now it's important to note that they aren't admitting fraud or that they were duped, but only that the tracks were more trouble than they were worth and that they apologize for the trouble they've caused.

How would people react if this happened, also knowing that no other tracks would appear on any future releases?

 

[WildStyle]

OK, I want to conduct a socxial experiment (because I have no other fun while being this sick and bedridden):

Let me throw out a hypothetical situation: SONY and the Estate announce that - due to the trouble the tracks have caused - they are discontinuing production on the "Michael" album and the three Cascio tracks are being taken off of the online market. Now it's important to note that they aren't admitting fraud or that they were duped, but only that the tracks were more trouble than they were worth and that they apologize for the trouble they've caused.

How would people react if this happened, also knowing that no other tracks would appear on any future releases?

It would be a better situation than what we have today, but I would not be satisfied until all 12 songs are no longer officially recognised as Michael Jackson and the truth behind their creation is revealed.

 

[StellaJackson]

And what about me ( the fan who changed the citizenship because of MJ) who just doesn't like Michael's hiccups and was very happy that he was able to forget about it from time to time.

Surely this is a joke? You do realise that those hiccups were a deliberate part of Michael's vocal repertoire? Please someone tell me this is not a serious comment.

 

[kreen]

@everybody : regarding the kids, we don’t really know what they think, and we don’t know what they were asked precisely, and what they answered. Yes, we have Paris badmouthing the 3 tracks, but we have also Prince sending his love to Eddie and cie. Besides, whatever they think or say, it looks like it is not enough for the Jacksons to sue the Cascios, which they would in a heartbeat if they could. I wouldn’t expect them to remember any song titles. But I would expect them to remember if Daddy recorded with Eddie.

@Jesta: if the Estate made that decision, it would certainly look like an admission that the songs are fake. The fact that they HAVEN’T done that looks like an indication they think the songs are real.

@Stella (if you can read this) and everybody else who uses the following arguments: “Breaking News” isn’t MJ because he’s never used his own name in a song before”, or “All I Need” isn’t MJ because there are no hiccups”, and other similar arguments: you must realize that those arguments are of no value. Just because someone hasn’t done something before doesn’t mean that he can’t do it at some point. I mean, if you’d told me I’d once have an MJ song called “Abortion papers” where MJ blasts a woman for having an abortion, invoking the name of God and the Bible, I would have told you you’re crazy. Yet that song exists.

Besides, you can’t have it both ways. When the Cascio songs feature a lot of MJ trademarks, you say those were used by the fraudsters precisely to fool us into thinking the songs are MJ. But when those trademarks are absent, then it’s an indication it’s not MJ. This is incoherent, and can’t be used as an argument either way. MJ’s also recorded many songs where he went out of his way NOT to use his trademarks, especially on Invincible.

 

[WildStyle]

They're not MJ because they sound like a different person that MJ never sounded like in his entire career. A white person with a distinct lack of soul and technique. A person that sounds like they were rejected from an audition for New Kids On The Block. Not one of the greatest soul singers to ever pick up a microphone. The songs are shallow and contrived in comparison to past work by MJ and there is absolutely not one shred of evidence to suggest that Michael ever had anything to do with these songs. "Nothing that could say Michael Jackson did this. Nothing! To this day, nothing. Still, nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing."

 

[SoCav]

OK, I want to conduct a social experiment (because I have no other fun while being this sick and bedridden):

Let me throw out a hypothetical situation: SONY and the Estate announce that - due to the trouble the tracks have caused - they are discontinuing production on the "Michael" album and the three Cascio tracks are being taken off of the online market. Now it's important to note that they aren't admitting fraud or that they were duped, but only that the tracks were more trouble than they were worth and that they apologize for the trouble they've caused.

How would people react if this happened, also knowing that no other tracks would appear on any future releases?

For me that would obviously be a great development, but I would not feel entirely satisfied because the matter would not be completely resolved. I want the truth to come out, whatever it may be.

Given that I believe these tracks are fake, I want this ugly stain completely wiped off of MJ's discography: it should be made clear that it is not him on the tracks. They should go down in history as fake tracks. If this does not happen, people who believe the tracks to be authentic would probably continue to think so and just see them being made unavailable by the Estate as a response to the complaints of the doubters. It would not resolve the issue.

I also think that those who are responsible for duping so many people should be held accountable for their actions.

 

[Chamife]

About his trademarks: my opinion is that he used them when it added to the song. When it contributed something. I never get irritated when Michael sings his songs with hiccups or when he leaves them out for instance, because he knows when to use them and the same goes for all his trademarks. And these trademarks comes from his enormous musicality. I love how Barry Gibb talked about how some people 'see' songs and that Michael was one of those people. And that is exactly what I miss. Cascio songs irritate me. I've never felt irritated when Michael sings something. There are beautiful melodies amongst them, that's not it, but the singer is the main reason they put me off.

From Abortion papers the impression I get is that Michaels portrays the dillemma a woman is facing.

I still stand to my opinion: It's not Michael I hear on the Cascio tracks.

And in All I Need I disagree with Lucilla, I don't think Michael would have used hiccups in this song.

We don't have to agree on everything, but 'the doubters' agree on the most important thing: We don't hear Michael.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Let's go back over the evidence. Kreen, if you can answer these questions, I'd appreciate it.

12 songs appeared seemingly out of thin air sometime in 2010. Why did NO ONE know about the recordings prior to that time?

Eddie Cascio, being a longtime friend of Michael, was looked at as a seemingly trustworthy source and sold the songs for $5 million, which was a dramatic step down from his original demand of $12 million -- $1 million per song. Why would someone ask for so much for one song?

According to Eddie, all other vocal takes were deleted from hard drives because they needed room. Why would anyone uncaringly delete Michael Jackson outtakes?

Work tapes featuring Michael's vocals are rumored to exist. Why, after TWO years, haven't they been released?

Around the time of the Michael album, Michael's three children were asked to write down titles to every song that they knew/could remember Michael was working on. Why didn't a single Cascio title appear on the list? (I would believe if they forgot a majority of them and only wrote down a couple, but not a SINGLE song?)

A cappellas prove that Michael's trademark foot stomps, hand claps and finger snaps, not to mention the way certain words are pronounced and his trademark vocal hiccups, are not present. Why did Michael suddenly decide NOT to do this?

Eddie and a majority of "believers" say that Michael's age played a factor into his declining vocal performance. Yet, we have Hold My Hand and Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' 2008, both of which were recorded months afterwards. Why does Michael sound normal in those songs, but not in the Cascio songs? (Keep in mind that WBSS 2008 WAS recorded in the Cascio basement, so the belief of "amateur recording equipment" is not valid.)

Michael's children have seen him record on various occasions; Paris apparently was in the room when Michael recorded Hold My Hand. Yet, none of his children were permitted downstairs while Michael recorded the Cascio tracks? (Sneaking into a high-profile recording studio is one thing; this is someone's house. It's not necessarily difficult to just walk down a staircase and stand outside the door to listen.)

Paris and Prince both said that they heard Michael singing downstairs while at the Cascio house, but not to any of the songs that came from Eddie around 2010. What was Michael singing? And if Eddie DID have real vocals from Michael, why record 12 songs with an impersonator?

If ANY believer will be willing to answer these questions for me, I welcome it.