Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Final verdict

  • AEG liable

    Votes: 78 48.4%
  • AEG not liable

    Votes: 83 51.6%

  • Total voters
    161
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I don't blame Michael for his death I just think it's sad that he was given such horrible care and bad medical advice for his insomnia. More than one doctor started him down this dangerous path and I think the doc's gave him a false sense of safety. Murray knew better and he was the one with the medical training not Michael so I put the majority of the blame on him.

That's how I feel. I wish Michael didn't pick Murray and try solving his insomnia this way. I understand though why because he was made to believe it was safe as long as he was watched and so on.

I have thought that maybe AEG wasn't thinking Murray was the problem but maybe Klein or something else. I feel that people suspected something wasn't right with Michael but they were looking in the wrong places and looking at the wrong people.
 
Oh dear. If the jury went to the end where they found AEG Liable, they would still have to put a percentage of responsibility on Michael. Michael chose this guy, Micahel had him buy prof, Michael told him to give it to him (unless you think AEG told Muarry to do that), Michael knew he was not well when he said he was, Michel did not call another doctor to check him out. This means grown Micahel had a choice in who he hired & what he asked the doctor to do. Unfortunately it led to his death, but he still had a choice in his decision to use prof to gain sleep, which led to unfortunate results.

I really think you have to read over those jury instructions and all the tweets from day 1.

Painful but true.
 
this is a complex question. id say both yes and no to this question. he showed up at rehearsals and rambling, being cold and shivering knowing perfectly fine that people would see him in that state.
on the other hand, he obviously wanted to tell everyone he was ok because he was scared they would cancel on him.

it's actually a very simple question. He did not want anyone to know. so he was concealing his struggles. He wanted Murray to do stuff he was not hired for.


yes absolutely. however that this was going on for 8 weeks (!!!!) and mj detoriating for each day should have alarmed aeg even more. murray was NOT fit and competent which was more evident for each day.
for 8 weeks there was no way of connecting the root cause of the problem to Murray. AEG had no reason to believe that the man who treated MJ and his children for 3 years suddenly would be harming MJ. trust me if they knew they would have fired his butt since AEG needed MJ to be well. there just was no way of knowing. instead people thought MJ was suffering from malnutrition and were recommending a nutritionist to assist.

just that aeg had the right to fire the doctor without mjs consent and they made him in charge of rehearsals ;) just those small details.

The conditions of the firing were very specific. for instance AEG could fire Murray if he did not have a licence or something to that effect. so it wasn't a green right to fire just for the sake of it.

Plus, MJ also had the right to fire Murray. after all he was the one who brought him onboard.
 
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They didn't need to know about propofol, but they needed to know that MJ was being put in danger by CM. If they didn't know that, then how can they be held liable?

question 2 did not include anything about 'If AEG knew or should have known'. Question 2 was if Murray was fit and competent for the job he was hired for.

So then you might say, well since AEG saw MJ sick a few times and got some concerned emails, that should have alerted them to remove CM. I disagree. The best doctor in the world can not prevent a patient from becoming ill. If the mere act of a patient becoming ill while under a doctor's care means that that doctor is unfit or incompetent, then one could say that every doctor is incompetent and go down that crazy road. At that point you lose grip on evidence and reason, and land in the realm of speculation and revisionist history.

I believe MJ detoriating was a process and not 'sick a few times' like you have described. It seems judging by trial testimony that as of May things got worse (chef kai Chase being away and returning and seeing MJ in bad shape). houghdal writing and email that he has seen mj detoriating for the past 8 weeks. Cherilyn Lee shocked when she saw that pic of how mJ looked at fitting. michael beardens email that MJ was still not ready.

i believe the evidence presented in this trial showed that murray was not fit and competent for the job he was hired for. i believe as time transpired and mj not getting better but weaker, it was obvious the doctor was not doing what he was suppose to do.


and im really curious to know where all other posters are that defended the verdict thinking the jurors could only answer question 2 based on the time (may 1) murray was hired.
 
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One thing that I will never do is blame Michael for his own death. The problem is not the propofol, the problem is that Michael was not being supervised while he was under anethesia. Conrad Murray was supposed to be watching his patient, not on the phone making calls to his girlfriends. Conrad Murray abandoned his patient.

That's a fact Lucy and I agree 100%.
 
I'd just like to clarify a bit where I said MJ is partly to blame for his own death. I don't like the word blame there, I used it because it was in the post I was replying to and I should have changed it to reflect what I actually feel. I do think MJ is partly responsible for his own death, but I feel like any blame put upon him is misplaced. He was suffering greatly, only found relief by using an extremely inappropriate and dangerous method, and paid the price for it with his life. It's like a person who commits suicide. They are responsible for their actions but it does no one any good to then lay blame on that person after the fact.
 
But Conrads attorney has nothing to do with this trial. (whether they saw it or not) All the TII footage was shown to the judge, katherine and AEG attorneys to establish if it was relevant to be shown in the trial. All agreed it wasn't needed.

Right, Conrad's attorneys have nothing to do with this trial.

I was referring to Passy's post about the attorney's comment "...KJ lawyers also checked all the footages of TII and could not find anywhere where MJ is shown poorly. in fact one of the lawyers stated that MJ looked good even when he was having a bad day. something to that effect."

I said I believe the comment about Michael being good was from one of Conrad's attorneys. Chernoff & Flanagan also saw the vid before the Conrad's trial and I'm almost sure one of them made that statement.
 
That's how I feel. I wish Michael didn't pick Murray and try solving his insomnia this way. I understand though why because he was made to believe it was safe as long as he was watched and so on.

I have thought that maybe AEG wasn't thinking Murray was the problem but maybe Klein or something else. I feel that people suspected something wasn't right with Michael but they were looking in the wrong places and looking at the wrong people.

Exactly marebear, AEG thought Klein was making our MJ sick and because Murray is such a good liar and conman they were looking in the wrong direction.
 
I don't think saying that Michael picked Murray and wanted to use propofol to help sleep is saying we are blaming him. I know Michael didn't want to die and I know he trusted Murray to take care of him. It's acknowledging his choices. I blame Murray and I wish that Michael knew how he was really being treated by this guy and he would have told him to go.
 
Juror#27

I know the jury foreman mentioned it a little, but can you give us a little more info about the whole deliberation process? the specific evidence you looked, the voting, what went on in the deliberation room and so on.
 
Yes, it was still a decision even if he was being pressured. He could have just as easily decided not to give MJ propofol.

If there was pressure or a conflict of interest, then it was up to CM to choose, "Do I risk my career and freedom by violating my duty as a Dr., or do I do the right thing and refuse to break my Hippocratic Oath?" He made that decision, and I do not see that AEG's pressure was ever so great to say that it alone is what caused him to act unethically.

There is 1 thing very important to note :
Thanks to the verdict about "AEG Hired CM" there are legal grounds (much stronger than before) for the Jackson Family to have AEG liable , via an appeal and probably without even passing through a jury.

I feel a Q/A is pointless , when aimed to defend AEG from their liability, because there are legal grounds that are NOT based on a jury opinion , that set in stone AEG's liability...

Thank you so so much for the jury giving us the verdict "AEG hired CM".
I think KJ will win his case and she will be allowed compensation in the future.
Thanks !
 
I'd just like to clarify a bit where I said MJ is partly to blame for his own death. I don't like the word blame there, I used it because it was in the post I was replying to and I should have changed it to reflect what I actually feel. I do think MJ is partly responsible for his own death, but I feel like any blame put upon him is misplaced. He was suffering greatly, only found relief by using an extremely inappropriate and dangerous method, and paid the price for it with his life. It's like a person who commits suicide. They are responsible for their actions but it does no one any good to then lay blame on that person after the fact.

thank you. im glad you understand where he was coming from and are able to show compassion. i will never judge or blame michael for various methods he used to get some peace. i believe this trial really outlayed the physical pain mj had after the burn incident and that he had legit reasons to use prescription pills. this trial did not however go deep into mjs emotional pain (although briefly mentioned by karen faye). mj suffered tremendously from age of 5 till his passing. he suffered alot throughout his life. because of the pain, i cant sit and blame him and his decisions. im more understanding to him
 
I don't think that Michael was 'suffering greatly' he wanted some sleep, that's all.
 
Im glad the Jury didn't find AEG liable because then they would also have to decide what % of blame to place on MJ. We don't know what % the Jury would decide be but there would be partial blame on record. (Even the Jacksons agreed to 20%) Because if they could find AEG responsible not knowing the treatments Dr Murray was giving they would have to also place at least some % of Responsibility on MJ as well.

I think the Jury came to the right decision - I don't think either AEG or Michael are responsible 50/50 or otherwise. I think Dr Murray is %100 responsible for his own negligent actions that caused Michael's death and that is how it still stands.

With Murray getting released in a few weeks its very important that he is held 100% responsible. Even if he refuses to take any responsibility or have ANY remorse .. Im glad the Jury clarified that him being stated competent for his job doesn't negate the fact that he chose to ignore his knowledge and training and his own despicable gross negligence is what killed Michael.
 
question 2 did not include anything about 'If AEG knew or should have known'. Question 2 was if Murray was fit and competent for the job he was hired for.
And he was fit and competent for the job he was hired for.

I believe MJ detoriating was a process and not 'sick a few times' like you have described. It seems judging by trial testimony that as of May things got worse (chef kai Chase being away and returning and seeing MJ in bad shape). houghdal writing and email that he has seen mj detoriating for the past 8 weeks. Cherilyn Lee shocked when she saw that pic of how mJ looked at fitting. michael beardens email that MJ was still not ready.
I am not disagreeing that things got worse, but there is no evidence that ties MJ's worsening condition to what CM was doing or not doing.

i believe the evidence presented in this trial showed that murray was not fit and competent for the job he was hired for. i believe as time transpired and mj not getting better but weaker, it was obvious the doctor was not doing what he was suppose to do.
But he was a lot better on the 23rd and 24th. Everyone who testified said that it was an unbelievable transformation from the 19th and that he looked perfectly healthy. Why would it be reasonable to see MJ look so much better, hear from MJ himself that he was fine, and conclude that they should remove his personal doctor? It doesn't make any sense unless you are looking at everything after the fact with the things done in private finally found out.
 
I don't think that Michael was 'suffering greatly' he wanted some sleep, that's all.
I think not being able to sleep for days on end would qualify as suffering greatly. We saw weeks of testimony from sleep experts and I have no doubt that MJ's inability to get restful sleep caused him immeasurable suffering. I was staggered when I heard about how much trouble he had getting sleep.
 
When my friends asked me about Michael's death they expected that as a fan I would go on an irrational rant about Murray, that I would be unable to be reasonable.

I have always said Michael made the choice to take propofol (sp?) and Murray made the choice to give it to him. Both are responsible in that respect. BUT the WAY Conrad Murray reacted (or did not react) to the crisis situation is what killed Michael.

A simple tilt of the chin ....
 
repost

Juror#27

I know the jury foreman mentioned it a little, but can you give us a little more info about the whole deliberation process? the specific evidence you looked, the voting, what went on in the deliberation room and so on.
 
They didn't need to know about propofol, but they needed to know that MJ was being put in danger by CM. If they didn't know that, then how can they be held liable?

So then you might say, well since AEG saw MJ sick a few times and got some concerned emails, that should have alerted them to remove CM. I disagree. The best doctor in the world can not prevent a patient from becoming ill. If the mere act of a patient becoming ill while under a doctor's care means that that doctor is unfit or incompetent, then one could say that every doctor is incompetent and go down that crazy road. At that point you lose grip on evidence and reason, and land in the realm of speculation and revisionist history.

Yes, there were concerns raised to AEG about MJ's health, but not one of those concerns was "Hey, Michael's doctor is over here doing dangerous stuff to MJ, please advise". Because no one besides MJ and CM knew what they were doing every night. Not Kenny, Travis, Karen, nobody knew. And since AEG was even more removed from MJ than all those people, how in the world can you say that they are the ones liable for what he did in private?


Your posts are so spot on that I feel some of us were really on that jury. You are saying much of what some of us have been saying in the trial thread.
 
And he was fit and competent for the job he was hired for.


I am not disagreeing that things got worse, but there is no evidence that ties MJ's worsening condition to what CM was doing or not doing.


But he was a lot better on the 23rd and 24th. Everyone who testified said that it was an unbelievable transformation from the 19th and that he looked perfectly healthy. Why would it be reasonable to see MJ look so much better, hear from MJ himself that he was fine, and conclude that they should remove his personal doctor? It doesn't make any sense unless you are looking at everything after the fact with the things done in private finally found out.

Unfortunately that is exactly what is being done. Hindsight!!

Can you give some more about the process as Ivy was asking above?
 
Question No. 1
Did AEG Live hire Murray?

Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 2. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 2
Was Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?

Yes / No


Notice the past tense in these questions (hired)--but the issue of when was he hired (if you answered Yes) is not specified, as far as I know. So this issue is, if he was hired, when did that hiring take effect (b/c it had to occur in the past at some point to get a Yes answer). This is a question referring to the oral contract and conduct b/c we know the final draft was not signed by MJ or AEG. However, this past hiring has to have taken place much earlier than June 19th. Was it when MJ asked for CM as his tour doctor and AEG agreed to begin negotiations with CM?

Myself, I would have answered the first question with a NO. But if you answer Yes then you have to know when that hiring was effective and therefore this will be the date for the question #2--was he competent and fit when "he was hired."
 
Juror#27

I know the jury foreman mentioned it a little, but can you give us a little more info about the whole deliberation process? the specific evidence you looked, the voting, what went on in the deliberation room and so on.
Sure. First thing we did was vote on our foreman. Some of us did not want the position, and so we voted on the jurors who were willing to accept. I voted for juror #1, a very intelligent and sweet lady who IMO was the best choice to represent us. We looked at what supplies we might need and we asked for them, plus a copy of the jury instructions and AEG/CM contract. Was much easier for everyone to just have their own copy of those. Someone mentioned T.I.I. and we all agreed we should watch it so we asked for that plus a tv/blu-ray player.

After that, as our foreman said we wanted to finally blow off steam and vent to each other, and we did do that, but I thought we got down to business just a little too quickly. There were SO many witnesses, SO much evidence, SO much to discuss, I thought we should spend a full day or even two just kind of gossiping and going over the whole trial to kind of get it all settled in our minds. There was so much to the trial that it was a bit overwhelming to try and make sense of it all at the end. I thought that just kind of generally discussing the whole ordeal would be good for us but we never really did that in depth. Our foreman was one of the jurors who was itching to get it over with so we followed his lead and just got right to the verdict form.

We took a quick poll to see where we all stood on question 1, Did AEG hire Murray? First result was 6 unsure, 4 no, 2 yes. This question was such a grey area for us to deal with. Clearly there wasn't a fully executed written contract, so we took that off the table. But there was a lot of email communication and actions between AEG and Murray. So we left day 2 with that up in the air, but when we came in on day 3 we talked for a bit about it and took another vote. It was a unanimous 12-0 to answer yes.

So then we moved to question 2, and again we took a vote. I am ashamed to admit that in our initial vote, I ignored the "for which he was hired" portion of the question and I voted "yes". As we read the results we realized we didn't go over the question thoroughly enough and we scrapped the results of the vote. We then discussed the question at length and examined what we thought was relevant to the question. What did they actually hire him to do? Did anything stand out which would alert AEG that CM was not fit to provide basic medical care? We didn't see anything. Was MJ's condition during this time evidence that CM was not fit or competent? No, we did not believe so. We watched the majority of This Is It on the afternoon of day 3 and the rest on the morning of day 4.

Day 4 we finished watching This Is It, talked about the question some more, and went to lunch. We were going to lunch earlier than usual during deliberations because we were partially sequestered and it was easier for the court attendants to get us to and from lunch that way. After lunch we decided to vote on question 2 and the result was 10-2. We talked about it a bit more since we wanted to have a unanimous decision, but when it became clear that the vote would stand we decided to hit the buzzer twice and get on with it.

The deliberation process was at times chaotic and intense, and at times very productive and enlightening. It was tough to keep everyone on the same page, keep small side discussions from happening, and generally keep ourselves on task. There was a knock on the door every 10 minutes it seemed like. We couldn't talk at all unless every member was in the room at the same time. Which was tough in itself since so many of the jurors had to use the restroom so often. It was definitely a bit of a pressure cooker situation, especially since on those last days we were so cooped up and guarded.
 
i read that hundreds of times and i still dont understand. mj was detoriating since murray was hired. thats approx 8 weeks. MJ has TWO good days (TWO DAYS ONLY) at the end and everyone thinks he's doing amazing. fyi those two good days didnt include full-rehersals.
do you understand???


the jury had the opportunity to actually determine if murray was competent and fit for the entire timeperiod and look what they came up with.

i think im about to cry

Michael's "deterioration" was likely due to the side effects from 2 months' worth of daily propofol and the normal (for MJ) physical stresses of rehearsing. If you followed the criminal trial, then you know the coroner's report deemed Michael "healthy" so there was no systemic disease or illness present.

Murray was deemed competent by the medical boards who licensed him in several states. He had no malpractice suits, suspensions, etc. and had good references from patients. There is no way Michael would have him as a physician for himself and his children if he thought Murray was incompetent. He wasn't at the time he was hired.

I think the jurors did an astounding job of sifting through 5 months' worth of witness testimony to arrive at a fair and just verdict.
 
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I don't think either AEG or Michael are responsible 50/50 or otherwise. I think Dr Murray is %100 responsible for his own negligent actions that caused Michael's death and that is how it still stands.

With Murray getting released in a few weeks its very important that he is held 100% responsible. Even if he refuses to take any responsibility or have ANY remorse .. Im glad the Jury clarified that him being stated competent for his job doesn't negate the fact that he chose to ignore his knowledge and training and his own despicable gross negligence is what killed Michael.
I agree with that completely. I remember when this first came out and it was said that Dr. Murray put Michael under and left for a few seconds to go to the bathroom (before we knew he was actually out making a ton of phone calls, and signing and faxing contracts, etc). Oddly enough, at that time I had no problem with the propofol because I was emphathizing with Michael's desperation, but I did have a huge problem with Murray leaving to go the bathroom-it took me about 40 seconds to think if it were me, I would have used a bed pan or something in the room and then I remembered that astronaut that drove across country wearing a diaper-that's what I decided I would do. I wouldn't have left his side for even a second.
But of course, Murray's actions turned out to be much worse than what he said in his conversation with the police and he did kill Michael, plain and simple.
 
Exactly marebear, AEG thought Klein was making our MJ sick and because Murray is such a good liar and conman they were looking in the wrong direction.
I am not making excuses for Klein because he comes up with some crazy things lately, but he was at one time an excellent doctor and I wonder if his behavior now has anything to do with being falsely accused.
 
question 2 did not include anything about 'If AEG knew or should have known'. Question 2 was if Murray was fit and competent for the job he was hired for.

First you need to know what Murray was hired for?

The contract states very clearly to provide general health care.

Murray, given his qualification and background as a cardiologist, was absolutely fit and competent to provide general health care. I mean if a GP can do it, why not Murray?

The problem though is that Murray was not doing what he was hired for. in other word he was treating MJ for acute and chronic insomnia, which falls outside the general health care. so, while Murray was not fit and competent for treating acute insomnia, he was perfectly fit to provide general health care.
 
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There is 1 thing very important to note :
Thanks to your verdict about "AEG Hired CM" there are legal grounds (much stronger than before) for the Jackson Family to have AEG liable , via an appeal and probably without even passing through a jury.

I feel a Q/A is pointless , when aimed to defend AEG from their liability, because there are legal grounds that are NOT based on a jury opinion , that set in stone AEG's liability...

Thank you so so much for giving us the verdict "AEG hired CM".
I think KJ will win his case and she will be allowed compensation in the future.
Thanks !

On what ground will KJ appeal? if she's surrounded by the right people they will advise her to move on.

An appeal won't make much of difference unless the jury did not apply the law correctly or completely disregarded evidence and facts. second, if the appeal is successful (which i highly doubt), the appeals court will order a re-trial. so it will be back to square one all over again but with a different jury.

Also, even though AEG won the suit, it can also appeal the verdict to question 1. so we may have two appeals going on at the same time since AEG still maintains that it did not hire Murray.
 
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Juror #27

Though it's been said over and over, I (like everyone else) am greatly appreciative of you finding this forum and reaching out to us.

I totally didn't expect to see a juror posting answers to our questions on here...

My question for you is how did you/other jurors seem to feel specifically about Randy Phillips stating in an email that he had slapped MJ and screamed so loud at him that the "walls shook" before the announcement of the TII concerts?

I'm not saying it should have had any impact on the final outcome of the trial, but just in general how did it make you feel (or the other jurors if it was brought up in deliberations)?

Thanks in advance!
 
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