Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

Within the fan community Vince is def not underrated at all.

I'm not talking about fan community. I'm talking about the world. Invincible is underrated within the world.

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

I'm not talking about fan community. I'm talking about the world. Invincible is underrated within the world.

The same argument could be made for HIStory as well.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

The same argument could be made for HIStory as well.

It can, but not at the same degree. Everyone knows about You Are Not Alone and They Don't Care About Us. A Lot of people know about Earth Song and Scream. Only song from Invincible that is relatively known to the world is You Rock My World. Small percentage of people know about Butterflies and Speechless and all of them love both. No one outside of the fan community knows about Whatever Happens, Unbreakable, Heaven Can Wait, Threatened, Break Of Dawn... The media destroyed that album and regular people didn't even give it a chance because of them. Most underrated album of all, even among part of fan community.

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

It can, but not at the same degree. Everyone knows about You Are Not Alone and They Don't Care About Us. A Lot of people know about Earth Song and Scream. Only song from Invincible that is relatively known to the world is You Rock My World. Small percentage of people know about Butterflies and Speechless and all of them love both. No one outside of the fan community knows about Whatever Happens, Unbreakable, Heaven Can Wait, Threatened, Break Of Dawn... The media destroyed that album and regular people didn't even give it a chance because of them. Most underrated album of all, even among part of fan community.

Fair enough, you've made your point but I have to disagree about it being the poster child for alien albums in MJ's Discography within the fan community.

That is a common generality you just drew, in fact a huge chunk of that community appraises invincible that way not because of a silly generic term like "underrating" but because they were genuinely underwhelmed by the albums content. I understand your argument about how the general public became disengaged with MJ (mostly because of the media) and wouldn't give an honest, unbiased assessment of his work but the fans on the other hand, that's a different song. It is evident in all the "Invincible Album Threads" that pops up once a time in a month, it's always the same arguments and opinions being raised. And at the end of the day it's just semantics and opinions, you say underrated, i say honest opinion.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

Not speaking about fans, but about media ("music" critics) and general public, this is the list of most underrated albums in my opinion:

1. Invincible
2. HIStory
3. Dangerous
4. Bad

Off The Wall is not underrated at all by those groups of people. In my opinion it's even slightly overrated, especially in comparison to post Thriller albums (Bad-Invincible).

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

Not speaking about fans, but about media ("music" critics) and general public

Lol, what?

media destroyed that album and regular people didn't even give it a chance because of them. Most underrated album of all, even among part of fan community

My post was a direct response to the bolded part..

 

[WildStyle]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

I didn't think Spike did a very good job with Bad 25 and would have been quite happy if the Estate went elsewhere with regards to future releases like this. I'll give it a chance however. I have no choice.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

I didn't think Spike did a very good job with Bad 25 and would have been quite happy if the Estate went elsewhere with regards to future releases like this. I'll give it a chance however. I have no choice.

I like Bad25 because finally there is a positive documentary about Michael. However, I agree that it could have been done much better. My problem is that there was too much focus on Michael's collaborators as opposed to Michael the artist. There was talk about how Siedah wrote MITM, but no talk about Michael writing 90% of the album. I guess that's because Michael is not here to talk about his writing process and Siedah is here to talk about hers, but I think some focus could have been put on MJ as the creative artist he was, especially because this was an album of which 90% was written solely by him.

 

[Smooth72]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

I didn't think Spike did a very good job with Bad 25 and would have been quite happy if the Estate went elsewhere with regards to future releases like this. I'll give it a chance however. I have no choice.

Thank you for saying that I agree. I was just thinking if they want a film or documentary to be big sales wise they need to look somewhere else. Spike although a good producer cannot deliver the sales Mj fan expect. His movies are not huge grossing film compared to someone like Brett Ratner not even close. I believe ratings were low on tv because for one they went against the NFL and because Spike was the producer. Generally ratings for Mj shows are high.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

Lol, what?

Exactly what I wrote. Fan community is irrelevant. Invincible, HIStory, Dangerous & Bad (in that order) are underrated by the world (media + general public) and Off The Wall is slightly overrated compared to the quality of his later albums.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

My post was a direct response to the bolded part..

And yes Invincible is underrated even among PART of fan community.

 

[Lil]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

I like Bad25 because finally there is a positive documentary about Michael. However, I agree that it could have been done much better. My problem is that there was too much focus on Michael's collaborators as opposed to Michael the artist. There was talk about how Siedah wrote MITM, but no talk about Michael writing 90% of the album. I guess that's because Michael is not here to talk about his writing process and Siedah is here to talk about hers, but I think some focus could have been put on MJ as the creative artist he was, especially because this was an album of which 90% was written solely by him.

^^completely agreed! Also, I could do without the opinions of people like Beyonce, Mariah Carey or Kanye this time, but I guess it was their way of keeping it 'current', just like they feel his songs need to be remixed to keep them contemporary..
Imo they used too little time showing actual footage of or relating to Michael during the creation of Bad, and too much on others talking about him. I understand these projects need to be profitable and maybe what I would like to see is aiming a bit too much at the more 'hardcore' fans, but I would've loved to see them really get into the subject; how Michael created music. Of course that's harder with him not being here to talk about it, but there's a wealth of material showcasing his creative process, stuff like jam sessions, demo's, recording footage etc. There were bits and pieces of it in there but I mean, if someone like Brad Sundberg privately owns audio of Michael & Bill creating Give into me and footage of him recording Childhood, surely there must be loads more of that kind of material out there they could've used! I did love Bad25 a lot, but it deserved to have the focus more on Michael and go a little bit more in depth on how he actually wrote and created that album imo.
I'm still really curious and excited about this new documentary tho

 

[analogue]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

I'm not talking about fan community. I'm talking about the world. Invincible is underrated within the world.

Destiny and Triumph are underrated within the fan community and general public. MJ's work with The Jackson's is criminally underrated

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

Exactly what I wrote. Fan community is irrelevant. Invincible, HIStory, Dangerous & Bad (in that order) are underrated by the world (media + general public) and Off The Wall is slightly overrated compared to the quality of his later albums.

Are you for real? You just said (and I quoted you) that Invincible is underrated in parts of the fan community and then I made a whole post explaining why I think invincible is not considered underrated in the fan community and then you replied with "I'm only talking about critics and media" and "Fan community is irrelevant" why the oxymoron?

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

I like Bad25 because finally there is a positive documentary about Michael. However, I agree that it could have been done much better. My problem is that there was too much focus on Michael's collaborators as opposed to Michael the artist. There was talk about how Siedah wrote MITM, but no talk about Michael writing 90% of the album. I guess that's because Michael is not here to talk about his writing process and Siedah is here to talk about hers, but I think some focus could have been put on MJ as the creative artist he was, especially because this was an album of which 90% was written solely by him.

I so agree with this. I love the doc and my only complaint is that I wanted more.
This is why it's so sad that Michael did not give interviews and reporters only wanted info on his personal life.
The best we have regarding his fascinating writing process are tapes from depositions and trials.
I think that's why I've read Joe Vogels book so much that the pages fell out.

 

[analogue]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

I so agree with this. I love the doc and my only complaint is that I wanted more.
This is why it's so sad that Michael did not give interviews and reporters only wanted info on his personal life.
The best we have regarding his fascinating writing process are tapes from depositions and trials.
I think that's why I've read Joe Vogels book so much that the pages fell out.

The Mexican Deposition 1993 and Dangerous Deposition 1994 are the closest things we're ever gonna get to having an interview about his creative process, and that's sad.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

^^completely agreed! Also, I could do without the opinions of people like Beyonce, Mariah Carey or Kanye this time, but I guess it was their way of keeping it 'current', just like they feel his songs need to be remixed to keep them contemporary..

I think if they want to show the album's influence today then they may do short interviews with current artists who cited the album as an influence (Pharrell, Daft Punk, Timberlake, Timbaland etc.). I don't mind that but they would have to keep it between certain limits. The focus has to be on Michael.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

Destiny and Triumph are underrated within the fan community and general public. MJ's work with The Jackson's is criminally underrated

I agree. Especially in comparison to J5 days. Motown was great. But The Jacksons >> The Jackson 5 anyday.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

Are you for real? You just said (and I quoted you) that Invincible is underrated in parts of the fan community and then I made a whole post explaining why I think invincible is not considered underrated in the fan community and then you replied with "I'm only talking about critics and media" and "Fan community is irrelevant" why the oxymoron?

And I also said: "And yes Invincible is underrated even among PART of fan community", which is true. Part of fan community. No one here is questioning Thriller or Dangerous greatness, but like you said you have various threads questioning Invincible popping every month.

 

[Zakk]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

And I also said: "And yes Invincible is underrated even among PART of fan community", which is true. Part of fan community. No one here is questioning Thriller or Dangerous greatness, but like you said you have various threads questioning Invincible popping every month.

I hear 'Don't walk away' a lot of the time when i go to my local McDonald's! i think it is a brilliant song, definitely one of my favorites from the entire 'Invincible' album.. always loved Michael's ballads and that song has a lot of meaning to me.. but getting back on topic.. i don't think 'Off The Wall' is underrated by any parties (Critics or fans) just because it has less sales than Bad & Dangerous doesn't mean it's worse, it is a creative insight into Michael's thought process and stylish aura in that era..

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

i don't think 'Off The Wall' is underrated by any parties (Critics or fans) just because it has less sales than Bad & Dangerous doesn't mean it's worse

That is interesting. Of course sales doesn't mean everything. But media and critics always say Bad is not good because it sold "only" 35 MIL copies, but they never say Bad and Dangerous are better than Off The Wall because of that same reason. Or they never say HIStory is as great as Off The Wall because they both sold 20 MIL copies. They always compare things to Thriller when they want to belittle something and only use sales numbers when that fits their agenda and that is to belittle Michael Jackson and greatness of his work and success.

 

[Zakk]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

That is interesting. Of course sales doesn't mean everything. But media and critics always say Bad is not good because it sold "only" 35 MIL copies, but they never say Bad and Dangerous are better than Off The Wall because of that same reason. Or they never say HIStory is as great as Off The Wall because they both sold 20 MIL copies. They always compare things to Thriller when they want to belittle something and only use sales numbers when that fits their agenda and that is to belittle Michael Jackson and greatness of his work and success.

I think i am correct in saying that the 'BAD' album has now sold near 47 million, not sure of the exact figures but i believe it was at 45 million before the release of 'BAD 25'! is there somewhere i can possibly acquire the correct sales chart?

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

I think i am correct in saying that the 'BAD' album has now sold near 47 million, not sure of the exact figures but i believe it was at 45 million before the release of 'BAD 25'! is there somewhere i can possibly acquire the correct sales chart?

45 MIL units - albums, singles, music videos from parent album...

34 MIL albums according to mediatraffic (last update: February 2013). It should be 35 MIL by now.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

Same way Thriller sold 110 MIL units, but cca 70 MIL albums (68 MIL according to mediatraffic in February 2013).

 

[Tygger]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

Maybe black artists say its their fave album because 99.9 of black artists perform R&B music and like listening to it. its just a matter of taste? even more so today with the type of music pharell etc are doing

I will take that percentage as your opinion because it is not based on fact.

This type of stereotype is why Michael only received R/B nominations for OTW despite its success on the pop charts at the time.

I am slightly confused by sections of this discussion because I have no idea as to why race/culture is a part of it.

 

[Hess]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

The wonderful thing about Michael Jackson was his ability to break down racial barriers and reach all cultures and races.

I really think MJ made the difference between black and white smaller. - in his audiences black and whites danced together and joined in the wonderful music.

Not only in music - but all around I feel/fear the difference against black and white once again gets bigger. - The discussion about race gets more and more important 'cause people seems to forget that we are all the same. In Denmark at least the debate about immigrants are very tough - and the language is not very sweet.

So to say race has nothing to do with anything in 2014 is just wrong. - It still has - and maybe even more today than 10 years ago. - The development has not been good I'm afraid. - Maybe it's just me and I hope I'm wrong, but the entire debate about race and who we want in out country is getting more and more tough.

 

[Galactus123]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

Same way Thriller sold 110 MIL units, but cca 70 MIL albums (68 MIL according to mediatraffic in February 2013).

I don't think Thriller has sold over 100 million. It may have been shipped that much but not sold. Many times they count the copies that are send to shops as sold.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

I don't think Thriller has sold over 100 million. It may have been shipped that much but not sold. Many times they count the copies that are send to shops as sold.

I believe the record says sold not "shipped", It was around 80M in mid 90's, 104M in mid 00's is not unrealistic. If they meant "shipped" and wrote "sold", then "sold" is a lie and I don't believe they lied.

Add the aprox 5M that Thriller25 sold worldwide, the general MJ sales increase of 2009, the fact that every Halloween the album re-appears on the charts and every time Michael had something new going (Including the trial and Bashir's interview) It was always among the best selling catalog albums of Billboard even before T25\2009. And technically speaking, Thriller is also a best seller that went through all the stages of music outlets - vinyls, cassetes, cds, digital releases which surely helped the sales.

Thriller is the only album with updated WW sales. Before the 104M sales figures, it was last updated in the 90's. Not long after HIStory campaign was over. OTW, Dangerous, *Bad and HIStory all have the same "official" figures since 1997. Invincible's figures are from 2002 but too old figures to get a real image. What I think is unlikely is that their sales are still around these numbers. So I'm glad that we at least got Thriller sales updated as for 2008 (104+5)

Edit: *Did they officially update Bad's sales in 2012? I believe the movie says it sold 40M. Mid 90's sales were 30M.

In Joe Vogel's book he writes estimated sales for each album but he seems to be the only one who has those numbers (possibly from the MJ Estate itself?) so I don't know if these numbers are really acknowledged by anyone but them (and us)...

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

*
* 45 MIL units - albums, singles, music videos from parent album...

34 MIL albums according to mediatraffic (last update: February 2013). It should be 35 MIL by now.*
**
*Multi-Quote This Message
*

*

OnirMJ
*said:23-11-2014*07:54 PMDefault*Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall DocumentarySame way Thriller sold 110 MIL units, but cca 70 MIL albums (68 MIL according to mediatraffic in February 2013).

+-------------

100 mill of everything. not just the albun

 

[jonathan1luna]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary

The Brazilian singer Seu Jorge recording with Spike Lee.

Does it have the possibility of release "Going To Rio", recorded in the album sessions?