Woah, When did HIStory come out as a stand alone release?

[DuranDuran]

Re: radio

True, but Electronic dance music history goes much further back than 15 years though.
The american EDM trash of the last 5 years

This is what I was saying about New Jack Swing. NJS was already several years old in the US before Dangerous came out, so it was an old sound here. I guess EDM is the reverse, it was popular in the UK and now it's imported here. There wasn't much variety in NJS, that's why it didn't last that long. There's only so much you can do with it. With hip hop, it doesn't all sound alike, so it lasted. There's different rap flows and musical/lyrical/image differences. There's some style differences too in hip hop. PM Dawn wasn't dressed like MC Hammer or the Geto Boys or Beastie Boys. Most of the NJS acts dressed the same and had similar grooming.

 

[HIStory]

^ Actually the NJS singles from Dangerous did well in the US. RTT was #3 and In The Closet #6. Only Jam did not achieve similar success as in Europe.

 

[DuranDuran]

^ Actually the NJS singles from Dangerous did well in the US. RTT was #3 and In The Closet #6. Only Jam did not achieve similar success as in Europe.

I'm aware of that, but like I mentioned NJS was on the way out here. Bobby Brown's 1992 album sold pretty good, but it wasn't as successful as Don't Be Cruel. Color Me Badd was pretty popular too, but their 2nd album didn't do that well, even though they changed their sound instead of doing New Jack again. Bell Biv DeVoe's 2nd album flopped too. TLC's first album was pretty much NJS, but the 2nd album Crazy Sexy Cool wasn't and it sold a lot more. In R&B during the early 1990s, ballad groups & singers started to become popular like Boyz II Men, Jodeci, Shai, Mariah Carey, Toni Braxton, etc. There was also the "hip hop soul" sound of Mary J. Blige. Really hip hop really took over R&B radio at this time and pop radio as well. The weren't really many R&B bands being played on the radio anymore, maybe Tony! Toni! Toné!. You can look at Soul Train during the 1990s and 2000s, when it finally went off the air. During the later years of the show, it was pretty much the Rap Train. :rofl:

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: radio

As for BOTDF - the song... when i first heard it, at the peak of my MJ fandom, i thought it sounded super dated.
But not in a good retro way, just dated and out of touch with what was going on.
And next to that it's not exactly a hit song.

I think that BOTDF has all the elements to be a hit song & potential of becoming classic MJ song. I think it is a great song. But I agree with you it was totally out of what was going on in 1997. But that goes for all Dangerous outtakes (BOTDF, Ghosts, Superfly Sister). Those are all classic Teddy Riley & Brian Loren New Jack Swing songs. And according to various interviews, MJ did not do much work on the music in 1997. Teddy Riley said he used his original DAT from 1990 for BOTDF. And I agree with Riley and I understand why he was angry that MJ did not call him to finish those songs together. In my opinion those songs are among MJ finest work and I love them, but they do sound like Dangerous songs and not like something from 1997. If Teddy reproduced them with MJ and updated the sounds those songs could have become a major US and worldwide hits and not just UK and Europe hits, especially BOTDF.

HIStory outtakes (Is It Scary and Morphine) sound less dated, but still not like something the radio stations would play in 1997. Just imagine that just a year later MJ would be recording classic R&B and New Soul songs like Break Of Dawn, A Place With No Name, Blue Gangsta, Speechless, Chicago and they all sound current for that time. If he released them then in 1999 and not waited until 2001 those songs would have become major US radio hits.

 

[Electro]

Re: radio

I guess EDM is the reverse, it was popular in the UK and now it's imported here.

There is way more to "EDM" or better it's roots than that, and i feel compelled to tell the full story... but it's too much info.

To make the story short:
In the 1950s ~ 60s synthesizers were bizarrly huge (like the very first computers) and mega expensive. Only a few universities had them or very rich people. The music was all spacy experimental (see some 1950s SciFi movies like "The Forbidden Planet").

By the 70s companies like Moog and Roland had developed way smaller / more handy and way more affordable synths and drum machines, so the sounds began to spread across all music genres. (You have a Moog and even a Vocoder on Thriller and most of Michaels 70s and 80s releases). Since the early 70s some serious musicians began to develope pure electronic music, like Kraftwerk in Germany or Jean Michel Jarre in France. This started a whole wave of exprimental synth music all over Europe, Japan, UK etc. Then Synth pop came, and everything got more danceable.

Out of that a small underground scene in Chicago and Detroit USA developed the early "Techno" and "House" genres in the 80s. This little movement was mostly recognized over here in Europe (UK and Germany) and it started the whole bigger Techno and House movement of the 90s. A long list of great electronic music styles was developed. Unfortunately by the mid 90s also a more commercial wave of trashy talent-free euro dance music had become big, and pretty much ruined the name of electronic music for good. The great underground stuff never really died out, it stayed and kept developing in the underground.

"EDM" is really just the term for the new botox trash version that for some reason is big in the US mainstream now. It's a direct child of the commercial euro trash Techno and "Trance" that was once big in Germany and all over Europe.

Of course it's all much more complecated but these are some core facts...
"EDM" is like a stinky burp after a great meal

 

[Electro]

Re: radio

I think that BOTDF has all the elements to be a hit song & potential od becoming classic MJ song. I think it is a great song. But I agree with you it was totally out of what was going on in 1997. But that goes for all Dangerous outtakes (BOTDF, Ghosts, Superfly Sister). Those are all classic Teddy Riley & Brian Loren New Jack Swing songs. And according to various interviews, MJ did not do much work on the music in 1997. Teddy Riley said he used his original DAT from 1990 for BOTDF. And I agree with Riley and I understand why he was angry that MJ did not call him to finish those songs together. In my opinion those songs are among MJ finest work and I love them, but they do sound like Dangerous songs and not like something from 1997. If Teddy reproduced them with MJ and updated the sounds those songs could have become a major US and worldwide hits and not just UK and Europe hits, especially BOTDF.

The biggest problem is not about the sound of the production really. It's rather complex and funky, but if the song had better catchy singing melodies this wouldn't matter. Michaels voice is barely understandable in the verses... and the refrain alone just isn't great enough to compensate for all that.

 

[analogue]

Just ordered a copy on Amazon. I was never a fan of the greatest hits CD that was always attached to HIStory, so it's nice to finally have that album without the greatest hits attached to it.

 

[innuendo141]

The biggest problem is not about the sound of the production really. It's rather complex and funky, but if the song had better catchy singing melodies this wouldn't matter. Michaels voice is barely understandable in the verses... and the refrain alone just isn't great enough to compensate for all that.

Thats down to taste and opinion though. I completely disagree with most of what you've said about the song. I understand the verses perfectly, melodies are very catchy and i don't think it sounds "dated" at all. As i said its my favourite MJ song but enjoying reading the various opinions as its a song that's not often discussed

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: radio

The biggest problem is not about the sound of the production really. It's rather complex and funky, but if the song had better catchy singing melodies this wouldn't matter. Michaels voice is barely understandable in the verses... and the refrain alone just isn't great enough to compensate for all that.

I disagree with that. Both BOTDF and Ghosts have brilliant melodies, harmonies and choruses.

 

[DuranDuran]

Re: radio

The biggest problem is not about the sound of the production really. It's rather complex and funky, but if the song had better catchy singing melodies this wouldn't matter. Michael's voice is barely understandable in the verses... and the refrain alone just isn't great enough to compensate for all that.

I don't think unclear vocals ever stopped songs from becoming hits. Does anyone know what is being said in Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit? Dancehall acts like Shaggy and Shabba Ranks were popular in the 1990s. There's also fast rappers like Twista. In the US, Rock Me Amadeus went #1 and the verses are in German, so was 99 Luftballoons.

 

[Shane Michaels]

Blood On The Dance Floor is one of the catchiest songs made. You can hear it's influence on The Weeknd's last big hit, "Can't Feel My Face". Plus, it's got a really agitated, dry funk sound, like Prince. It was out of sync with Blackstreet and the like, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that it's so hooky. It's like the anti-thesis of Smooth Criminal: Rather than Michael (possibly) as the murderer of Annie, singing from a perspective of innocence, here, the woman, seemingly chaste (Susie is likely a false name to suggest goodness), is the killer, out for Michael's blood. An interesting twist, and probably one I'm just pulling out of nowhere, but that's how I see it.

Meanwhile, what was this thread about? Oh yeah, History! I could've sworn I've seen it separate somewhere, but it's good that's it is on it's own. I have the original Double Disc, with the uncensored TDCAU and History with the original intro. Fresh from the 90s! No booklet though. I'm not selling by the way.


ax
CesDxwaa

 

[Electro]

I understand the verses perfectly

I do too... after i listening zillions of times to it. I bet most average non-native english speakers didn't understand a word of those verse-vocals.

I try to emuate the perspective of those average listeners that hear things on the radio.
The kind of people who, with their spontaneous purchase behaviour decide if a song becomes a commercial hit or not.

A clear / easy accessable arangement and beautiful melodies always decide over hit potential among the masses.
You can apply that formula too almost all of Michael biggest hits.
Just look at HIStory... Earth Song, YANA, TDCAU. The biggest commercial hits on HIStory. Why?

Do I as a fan appreciate the more edgy overproduced stuff? Yes. But that's a different story.
I think it's important to have the two different perspectives.

 

[innuendo141]

I try to emuate the perspective of those average listeners that hear things on the radio.
The kind of people who, with their spontaneous purchase behaviour decide if a song becomes a commercial hit or not.

The song was number one in several countries, I don't know what point you are trying to make, I keep getting lost in your arguments.

With regards to having different perspectives, I've always only cared about whether I like a song or not by listening to it either liking or disliking what I hear, first and foremost. Perspective doesn't come into whether you think a song is good or not, nor does it make a song any better. A song is what it is to you. I enjoy debates and discussions about songs but when it starts getting to the point where anything other than the song needs to be taken into consideration I lose interest.

That's the beauty of music, you can be as selfish as you like and not feel bad.

 

[DuranDuran]

A clear / easy accessable arangement and beautiful melodies always decide over hit potential among the masses.

Maybe in the past, but now it's likely to be the beat or ringtone songs. Here's some big hits of the 2000s in the USA.

Snoop Dogg ~ Drop It Like It's Hot
Soulja Boy ~ Pretty Boy Swag
DJ Snake & Lil' Jon ~ Turn Down For What
Silentó ~ Watch Me
Nelly & Paul Wall ~ Grillz
Destiny's Child feat. Lil Wayne & T.I. ~ Soldier
Beyoncé ~ 7/11
Black Eyed Peas ~ Boom Boom Pow
Gwen Stefani ~ Hollaback Girl
DJ Unk feat. OutKast ~ Walk It Out (remix)
Jennifer Lopez ft. Iggy Azalea ~ Booty
Pitbull ~ Bon Bon
D4L ~ Laffy Taffy
Fetty Wap ~ Trap Queen
2 Chainz & Nicki Minaj ~ I Luv Dem Strippers
Lil Wayne ~ Lollipop
Chamillionaire ~ Ridin' Dirty

Ridin' Dirty spawned Weird Al's most successful song White And Nerdy.

 

[KOPV]

I have to get this... part of the reason why I have not re-purchased HIStory after mine started skipping after the 3rd copy?? was because I didint want to buy the full thing!

 

[HIStory]

I do too... after i listening zillions of times to it. I bet most average non-native english speakers didn't understand a word of those verse-vocals.

I try to emuate the perspective of those average listeners that hear things on the radio.
The kind of people who, with their spontaneous purchase behaviour decide if a song becomes a commercial hit or not.

I don't think understanding the lyrics plays such a big part in a song's hit potential as you think. Like Duran pointed out there are a lot of hit songs where the lyrics are hard to understand. When I became an MJ fan as a child I didn't even speak English, I didn't understand the lyrics at all, but it didn't matter because I liked the music.

 

[HIStoric]

I don't think understanding the lyrics plays such a big part in a song's hit potential as you think. Like Duran pointed out there are a lot of hit songs where the lyrics are hard to understand. When I became an MJ fan as a child I didn't even speak English, I didn't understand the lyrics at all, but it didn't matter because I liked the music.

Case in point at 2.44 billion views...

 

[Electro]

The song was number one in several countries, I don't know what point you are trying to make, I keep getting lost in your arguments.

With regards to having different perspectives, I've always only cared about whether I like a song or not by listening to it either liking or disliking what I hear, first and foremost. Perspective doesn't come into whether you think a song is good or not, nor does it make a song any better. A song is what it is to you. I enjoy debates and discussions about songs but when it starts getting to the point where anything other than the song needs to be taken into consideration I lose interest.

That's the beauty of music, you can be as selfish as you like and not feel bad.

Well, that's fine. But you don't really get far only having the subjective fan perspecive when you want to talk about conditions of success of a song.

OnirMJ wrote: "If Teddy reproduced them with MJ and updated the sounds those songs could have become a major US and worldwide hits and not just UK and Europe hits, especially BOTDF."

That's what i replied to.


And yes, the song was a number one in several countries. But again, would this have happened without tons of hype and promo that surrounded the second leg of the HIStory tour? I doubt it.

 

[Electro]

I don't think understanding the lyrics plays such a big part in a song's hit potential as you think. Like Duran pointed out there are a lot of hit songs where the lyrics are hard to understand. When I became an MJ fan as a child I didn't even speak English, I didn't understand the lyrics at all, but it didn't matter because I liked the music.

The BOTDF verse vocals are mostly hard to understand, because they are overpowered by the music, which, at that part, doesn't offer anything but complex hitech funk. That's not exactly part of a hit recipe that works with average radio listeners. Anyway, that's just that part of the song. There are better ones of course.

 

[innuendo141]

Do I as a fan appreciate the more edgy overproduced stuff? Yes. But that's a different story.
I think it's important to have the two different perspectives.

This is what I was replying to, not about having a different perspective as to why a song is successful. I'm well able to discuss why I think a song is or isn't successful, but you cant seem to grasp that BOTDF was successful because it was a good song. You are putting it all on the promotion and tour and kind of ignoring what everyone else is saying, that it's catchy and funky but because you yourself either felt it was outdated or found the verses hard to understand you feel strongly that this in fact should not have been a hit. That is what is confusing me.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make?

My point was just that I loved the song, and disagreed with your reasons for stating it's not great, and I was basing that on my opinion of the song as it is presented- not on how it was or should have been perceived. If the song had been a flop and barely charted it would not have changed my opinion of the song itself. That was the point I was making.

Would any song be a hit without promo and hype?

At the end of the day, BOTD was a big hit for MJ in Europe, more so than songs like TDCAU, SIM and History, which were all part of the HIStory campaign. I think it was nice for people to have an MJ song that they could dance to again, and one that wasn't so serious in its subject matter.

Fact.

 

[wendijane]

Some nice posts here and I agree with most that you honestly can hear the lyrics.. as we all know, Michael was universal, he appealed to everyone and all ages
There were certainly no language barriers for M or his fans
That was the beauty of it. That was the point of it.

 

[Electro]

Would any song be a hit without promo and hype?

At the end of the day, BOTD was a big hit for MJ in Europe, more so than songs like TDCAU, SIM and History, which were all part of the HIStory campaign. I think it was nice for people to have an MJ song that they could dance to again, and one that wasn't so serious in its subject matter.

I don't remember all exact chart peak positions in Europe, but in Germany Earth Song and TDCAU were Michaels first No.1's EVER. As far as I remember the BOTDF song peaked at No. 5. Earth Song was supported by the TV appearance on Wetten Dass. BOTDF was supported by the fact that it was the first song off a new "album" (extra hype), and the ongoing HIStory tour hype. I don't know about you, but that tells me something about the difference in how these songs were received.


Anyway, we're getting a little lost between the different levels of discussion here.

 

[HIStory]

Believe it or not, Electro, some people really DO like BOTDF. I'm included. Maybe, just maybe it was a hit in Europe because people actually liked it, even if you personally did not.

The USA didn't like it for whatever reason. But then the USA did not like almost anything that MJ released at the time. They did not like Earth Song and TDCAU either, even though they were masterpieces as far as I am concerned. TDCAU especially which the USA now starts to appreciate in the hindsight.

 

[OnirMJ]

But then the USA did not like almost anything that MJ released at the time. They did not like Earth Song and TDCAU either, even though they were masterpieces as far as I am concerned.

Earth Song wasn't even released un US. They would like it if it was released. Stupid stupid move by MJ and Sony Music. It would have been a major hit released after #1 hit single You Are Not Alone. That was their biggest mistake in the whole HIStory promo. They were aiming to release This Time Around instead (which would be another major hit in the US), but they didn't when MJ collapsed and One Night Only show got cancelled.

They Don't Care About Us would have been hit in US if there wasn't such a big gap between second single (You Are Not Alone) and third (TDCAU). People forgot about HIStory by then, especially without MJ touring there. And on top of all that don't forget radio boycotting the song, media backlash and false "controversy" constructed by various organizations about the lyrics. That song was doomed in US, and every other single from HIStory released after.

BOTDF came out almost without any promo. HIStory/Ghosts was not released there. And SIM just came way too late (in late 1997!). That song if released earlier (maybe after YANA) would have become a big hit in US.

 

[innuendo141]

I don't remember all exact chart peak positions in Europe, but in Germany Earth Song and TDCAU were Michaels first No.1's EVER. As far as I remember the BOTDF song peaked at No. 5. Earth Song was supported by the TV appearance on Wetten Dass. BOTDF was supported by the fact that it was the first song off a new "album" (extra hype), and the ongoing HIStory tour hype. I don't know about you, but that tells me something about the difference in how these songs were received.


Anyway, we're getting a little lost between the different levels of discussion here.

Sooooooo you think that just because someone has a current world tour going about to drop, the lead single off their new album is guaranteed a number 1 spot in the charts?

A song doesn't sound different just because it is released around the time of a tour!!!

If you don't like the song fair enough, but your arguments as to why it was popular is ridiculous. A lot of people liked the song.

 

[kreen]

The BOTDF verse vocals are mostly hard to understand, because they are overpowered by the music, which, at that part, doesn't offer anything but complex hitech funk. That's not exactly part of a hit recipe that works with average radio listeners. Anyway, that's just that part of the song. There are better ones of course.

I agree that the vocals on BOTDF are too low in the mix.

Can anybody confirm that this stand-alone HIStory has the uncensored, original version of TDCAU?

 

[Electro]

Believe it or not, Electro, some people really DO like BOTDF. I'm included. Maybe, just maybe it was a hit in Europe because people actually liked it, even if you personally did not.

Here we go lol...
I did not say I personally don't like it. Nor did i say that anyone else here liking it is wrong. Ok?

My point is, besides it doing "pretty well" commercially because of the right momentum, it would have done even better if it had been a better song. And this theory is kind of backed up when you look at the chart performance of the song and the higher charting singles of HIStory and the different amount of promo / hype they had.

Anyway... enough now.

 

[HIStory]

And this theory is kind of backed up when you look at the chart performance of the song and the higher charting singles of HIStory and the different amount of promo / hype they had.

Well, Scream was #3 in the UK. BOTDF was #1. Do you say that the first single of HIStory didn't get enough promotion compared to BOTDF? If it all comes down to promotion and whether a song is among the first song released from an album...

 

[innuendo141]

My point is, besides it doing "pretty well" commercially because of the right momentum, it would have done even better if it had been a better song. And this theory is kind of backed up when you look at the chart performance of the song and the higher charting singles of HIStory and the different amount of promo / hype they had.

You cant just say "enough now" after this. SO for the singles that didn't get to number one, or chart anywhere near as well as BOTDF BUT you consider them to be better singles for the public than BOTDF, what do you have to say for them? Were the songs not good enough? and should they have received a bigger push? Or announce a tour for each of those singles?

Blood on the Dance Floor did as well as it did. There's no changing history really. A lot of people liked it, went out and bought it, and happened to turn it into a #1 single for him. Your posts have an air of "how dare the song do as well as it did, as it is not up to my standards".

To further expand on Respect77's point, Scream was publicised as being most expensive music video of all time, billed as the first ever duet between two major superstars, and a couple of statues popped up all over the world, along with a 5 minute epic yet self-indulgent HIStory teaser which featured an actual army drill and a colossal statue. Of himself.

 

[DuranDuran]

The BOTDF verse vocals are mostly hard to understand, because they are overpowered by the music, which, at that part, doesn't offer anything but complex hitech funk. That's not exactly part of a hit recipe that works with average radio listeners. Anyway, that's just that part of the song. There are better ones of course.

This was a hit in the US a few years ago. Are the vocals clear enough for you to understand? :rofl: