HIStory Tour Discussion - Should it be released? [Merged]

[analogue]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

no...if it was a box set, I want the same amount of footage from all tours. full concerts. from all legs. I would be happy with 1 full concert from each leg

So you want?

BAD Tour 1987
BAD Tour 1988
BAD Tour 1989
Dangerous Tour 1992
Dangerous Tour 1993
HIStory Tour 1996
HIStory 1997

That's a bit much, and the 1993 leg of the Dangerous tour should NEVER be released

Hell no. Munich contains what I personally feel to be the worst performance Michael ever put on. I'm aware of his illness at the time, but his voice was absolutely abysmal - he doesn't sing as much as scream for the notes. If the tour simply had to be released for whatever reason other than to acknowledge that it did occur (which seems to be the only real reason), why would they choose Munich?

I'll take a VHS quality copy of literally any other show on that tour over a high definition copy of Munich any day.

Munich. The worst show from the worst tour. Releasing it would be a terrible idea, but if HIStory Tour is released that'll probably be the one they choose because ITZ IN HDZ!!!!!!!!!11111ONE1111!!!!!

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

I thought the reason was because at that time Wembley was the only show they had access to

Wembley was the only show they had multitracks for. Also Yokohama.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

1993 leg of the Dangerous tour should NEVER be released

Hahahaha.. So that is Dangerous 1993, HIStory, 30th Anniversary.. What else?

 

[Michaels Lover]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

So you want?

BAD Tour 1987
BAD Tour 1988
BAD Tour 1989
Dangerous Tour 1992
Dangerous Tour 1993
HIStory Tour 1996
HIStory 1997

That's a bit much, and the 1993 leg of the Dangerous tour should NEVER be released

I want it ALL and I want it NOW :cheeky:

 

[Michaels Lover]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

Hahahaha.. So that is Dangerous 1993, HIStory, 30th Anniversary.. What else?

wait, what? I want all of that to be released...in the tour box set

 

[barbee0715]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

I am horribly confused. I've only watched History Tour on YouTube. First I read that he lip syncs the entire show and now he's in horrible voice?
Did he just sing live in Munich or something?

 

[Michaels Lover]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

I am horribly confused. I've only watched History Tour on YouTube. First I read that he lip syncs the entire show and now he's in horrible voice?
Did he just sing live in Munich or something?

he didn't lip sync the entire show...he sang Wanna Be Startin Something and J5 medley 100% live at all the concerts. and some parts of other songs like Beat It, Billie Jean and You Are Not Alone (the end of the songs) was live, also at all the concerts. his voice sounded horrible on some of the concerts because he was sick. Munich was one of them. Seoul is another example

 

[analogue]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

I am horribly confused. I've only watched History Tour on YouTube. First I read that he lip syncs the entire show and now he's in horrible voice?
Did he just sing live in Munich or something?

The live vocals from Munich are the same amount of live vocals from any HIStory Tour. But on Munich his vocals sounded really rough and scratchy.

 

[analogue]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

Hahahaha.. So that is Dangerous 1993, HIStory, 30th Anniversary.. What else?

wait, what? I want all of that to be released...in the tour box set

Dangerous Tour 1993 should NEVER be released, because at that time Michael had the false child molestation charges hanging over his head. Seeing Michael struggling emotionally and physically through the 93 leg of the Dangerous Tour due to those false allegations is sad to watch.

The 1993 leg of the Dangerous Tour never should have happened to begin with

 

[wonderouzdj2]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

Dangerous Tour 1993 should NEVER be released, because at that time Michael had the false child molestation charges hanging over his head. Seeing Michael struggling emotionally and physically through the 93 leg of the Dangerous Tour due to those false allegations is sad to watch.

The 1993 leg of the Dangerous Tour never should have happened to begin with

The whole gold jacket part of the tour he knew about it?

 

[analogue]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

The whole gold jacket part of the tour he knew about it?

Yes. It shouldn't be released. Period

I'm more against a 1993 Dangerous Tour release than I am a HIStory Tour release

 

[Galactus123]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

I thought the reason was because at that time Wembley was the only show they had access to

I'm pretty sure they have access to most of the concerts. Every concert is on tape like Wembley. Some could be lost like the master tape of Wembley was but they should have most of them. Wembley was chosen because of the great audio and they can advertise that Diana was there.

I'll take a VHS quality copy of literally any other show on that tour over a high definition copy of Munich any day.

But would they release something like that? I don't think the jumbotron concerts we have from the tour are releasable. Many of them look very dark and the lip-syncing is obvious. Munich on the other hand looks great because it's in HD. I'm not saying they should release it but just my opinion.

 

[analogue]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

and they can advertise that Diana was there.

Why that was used as a big selling point is a mystery to me. I want to see Michael Jackson, not Princess Diana. In fact, it wouldn't have made any difference if Diana was there or not. It's not like it showed any crowed shots of her

 

[AlwaysThere]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

@barok232: the overall issue for me isn't AV sync (though I do have an eye for detail and get annoyed when the audio is off). The greatest audio/video synchronization on planet Earth can't save a lackluster performance. Your comment did cause me to look up that issue however... interesting information!

I'm not technical person nor do I care whether MJ lip synced at times, but what you wrote seems to be issue alright.

For me that all depends on exactly how much of the show is mimed.

Wembley 1988 does excellent - only four of the seventeen songs (about 23% of the show) have playback, not considering a couple seconds of ad-libs here and there. Bucharest 1992 starts pushing the limit a bit but is still executed well - seven of the sixteen songs (44%) are mimed, again not accounting for ad-libs.

Now compare that to Munich 1997, in which fifteen of the seventeen songs (88%) are mimed, the exceptions being the Jackson 5 Medley and Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'. The line has been drawn and exceeded by several steps in this instance.

 

[analogue]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

But when you compare his lip synced performances from his previous tours to his lip synced performances from the HIStory Tour, you can really see a difference. Just look at Jam from 1992, and then look at Scream from the HIStory Tour. Both performances are lip synced, but Jam as much more energy and power in it's performances.

Or just compare Smooth Criminal from the BAD and Dangerous Tours to Smooth Criminal from the HIStory Tour. Again, all performances lip synced, but HIStory Tour's performances pails in comparison to BAD and Dangerous

 

[Michaels Lover]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

I want to comment on the bold ones and I want everybody to pay real attention to what I have to say this time especially.

In order to enjoy a live performance and get the best out of it you must have perfect audio and video synchronization (AV sync). You may think you have it already but you don't! Even if the source video is in perfect sync there is a huge chance that you watch MJ with no AV sync.

The main reason? It is called INPUT DELAY! (there are many other reasons as well including cables' delay, graphics gard delay, audio card delay etc). Input delay means that there are some milliseconds of image delay, from the time the monitor/screen/tv is asked to show an image until it actually does. When the video delays one gets the feeling that the performer is tired, out of tempo, bored or lifeless.

And why is it noticeable mostly with the History tour one might ask. I guess it's because Michael became very precise and to the point with his dance moves. Believe me when I say I have spent nearly 5 months trying to configure my AV sync on my projector. Now watching the History tour is a totally different experience! You cannot realize how important AV sync is when you have it and how damaging it can be when you don't. You have to experiment and see for yourself. After that watch the History tour and state again that MJ looks lifeless (if you dare, haha)

Consider this also: Light travels about 900.000 times faster than sound. If you stand 1 meter away from someone talking to you, his lips are out of sync by approximately 3ms !!!!

(Now be honest, how informative was my post! )

it was supposed to be informative? you lost me at the first sentence. I'm fine with the way I watch my MJ (on an external hard drive through my PS3), anyway. WITH only the sound from the tv as well. and he don't have to be in the best and most perfect quality, whether it's picture or sound. it's not enough for me to go out and invest in the equipment required to get the best sound possible (not necessarily AV sync that you talk about, as I have no idea what is needed to get that, and I'm not interested), anyway. I'm just saying the best sound possible. because I could, of course, get better sound than from the TV, if I wanted to. all that was fun when I was younger (I had to have surround for example), but nowadays it's not something I find so interesting anymore
BTW, if I ever go somewhere where someone has a tv and watching something in HD, and I look at the tv, my eyes hurt. because I'm not used to it at all, because HD footage isn't exactly what there's most of with MJ

 

[analogue]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

Anyway, regardless of the matter which tour is better or worse, try looking into what I've told y'all and you'll win big time. If you achieve the perfect sync, then you are instantly in Michael's brain and body, you will feel each move as he did. Although beware, it's VERY tough to find the sweet spot

(And to freak you out a little bit, I managed to fix my A/V sync not only by milliseconds but also by millisecond decimals)

Sorry, but this doesn't make the HIStory Tour any better for me.

 

[Michaels Lover]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

Sorry, but this doesn't make the HIStory Tour any better for me.

lol yeah. however you feel about something, it's not gonna change your opinion about it just because you hear it in a better quality

Did I not write "regardless of the matter which tour is better or worse"? LOL

I don't get what it has to do with anything? if there's something I don't like to watch, it's not gonna change just because I see it in a better quality? the only thing I can see that would change, if for example a concert was horrible quality and I can not watch it, and then I see that very same concert and is so much better because of the quality ,and now I can finally enjoy it? not because the concert is bad, but because the quality was bad...

 

[Michaels Lover]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

It is not a matter of quality. This is a setting that totally affects the flow and character of everything that is being portrayed

I know it's not, I was just saying that it wouldn't make a difference how you feel about something, no matter how good it looks/sounds. if I don't like something, lets say heavy metal, I'm not gonna like it just because something affects the flow and character of everything that is being portrayed. it's still awful music to my ears. there are people who don't like the fact that Michael lip synced. there's no setting in the world that can change that. no matter how it sounds, he STILL lip synced, and it's not gonna change those peoples minds about it, just because it sounds fantastic

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

Dangerous Tour 1993 should NEVER be released, because at that time Michael had the false child molestation charges hanging over his head.

Again. That is your opinion, your personal preference. Just like HIStory & 30th Anniversary. Every tour/leg should be released (if the show is great and the quality releasable).

Seeing Michael struggling emotionally and physically through the 93 leg of the Dangerous Tour due to those false allegations is sad to watch.

I've seen Buenos Aires full show. Didn't see any "struggling emotionally and physically". Didn't see remaining 23 shows of the tour, just like you didn't also.

The 1993 leg of the Dangerous Tour never should have happened to begin with

That is another topic. Completely irrelevant here because the tour happened.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

Yes. It shouldn't be released. Period

I'm more against a 1993 Dangerous Tour release than I am a HIStory Tour release

Hahaha. Thanks to God that you don't work for the Estate or Sony Music!

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

Just look at Jam from 1992, and then look at Scream from the HIStory Tour. Both performances are lip synced, but Jam as much more energy and power in it's performances.

"energy and power". Please see Michael Jordan playing at age of 34 and then at age of 39. Don't know if he played at all at that age. Or Mike Tyson. Or any other athlete or performer. Performance can have less "energy and power" and still be great.

Or just compare Smooth Criminal from the BAD and Dangerous Tours to Smooth Criminal from the HIStory Tour. Again, all performances lip synced, but HIStory Tour's performances pails in comparison to BAD and Dangerous

I disagree here. Smooth Criminal from HIStory Tour is actually pretty great. (not talking about "energy and power" - because that's not what makes a performance awesome). The same can be said that Smooth Criminal from the HIStory Tour had more smoothness, elegance, grace, swag, precision.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

there are people who don't like the fact that Michael lip synced. there's no setting in the world that can change that. no matter how it sounds, he STILL lip synced, and it's not gonna change those peoples minds about it, just because it sounds fantastic

That's not accurate though as I pointed out few times before. there are people who don't like the fact that Michael lip synced... on HIStory Tour. They don't care about the fact that he used to do it long before HIStory tour also. But yes, I agree, nothing will change their minds about it.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

"energy and power". Please see Michael Jordan playing at age of 34 and then at age of 39. Don't know if he played at all at that age. Or Mike Tyson. Or any other athlete or performer. Performance can have less "energy and power" and still be great.

You have the foundation of a wonderful point - that energy doesn't necessarily equate to a great performance - but given the situation at hand (Michael's energy/power during the History tour) it somewhat falls apart.

ENTHUSIASM is what drives a performance. Looking at the artist and watching them in their element.

And that's where Michael Jackson excelled. Watch Another Part of Me from Wembley 1988 - he is having an absolute ball. Look at how into the music he gets when he's dancing. How he grins, shouts, claps his hands. In that moment you truly, wholeheartedly believe that he is having the time of his life. Same with I Just Can't Stop Loving You or I'll Be There or any song. The artist has to WANT to do it - that's when it crosses that ever-important line between "okay" and "great".

That isn't the case with the History tour in my opinion. Looking at Michael, there are very few instances in which he looks like he wants to be there. His eyes are stoic. He moves as if he's in a rehearsal rather than on stage.

That's where the difference is. Michael didn't need energy or gusto or any word synonymous with that to give a good performance - he just had to perform like he wanted to be there. And I have yet to see a single History tour show where Michael looks like he wants to be there from beginning to end. A couple seconds here and there aren't enough.

That's not accurate though as I pointed out few times before. there are people who don't like the fact that Michael lip synced... on HIStory Tour. They don't care about the fact that he used to do it long before HIStory tour also. But yes, I agree, nothing will change their minds about it.

You are either misinterpreting what some of us say or simply choose not to accept it.

I think I speak on behalf of several people (feel free to correct me, those of you who disagree) that the problem isn't that Michael is miming in general; it's that over 85% of every History tour show has been mimed.

 

[Michaels Lover]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

That's not accurate though as I pointed out few times before. there are people who don't like the fact that Michael lip synced... on HIStory Tour. They don't care about the fact that he used to do it long before HIStory tour also. But yes, I agree, nothing will change their minds about it.

That wasn't the point of my post though...and where/when he lip synced is irrelevant to the point of my post

 

[Michaels Lover]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

I think I speak on behalf of several people (feel free to correct me, those of you who disagree) that the problem isn't that Michael is miming in general; it's that over 85% of every History tour show has been mimed.

I don't have a problem with it, never did

 

[barbee0715]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

ENTHUSIASM is what drives a performance. Looking at the artist and watching them in their element.

And that's where Michael Jackson excelled. Watch Another Part of Me from Wembley 1988 - he is having an absolute ball. Look at how into the music he gets when he's dancing. How he grins, shouts, claps his hands. In that moment you truly, wholeheartedly believe that he is having the time of his life. Same with I Just Can't Stop Loving You or I'll Be There or any song. The artist has to WANT to do it - that's when it crosses that ever-important line between "okay" and "great".

That isn't the case with the History tour in my opinion. Looking at Michael, there are very few instances in which he looks like he wants to be there. His eyes are stoic. He moves as if he's in a rehearsal rather than on stage.

Beautifully put-for me, it's not the lip syncing at all, or the dance moves. It's in his eyes. I now want the tour to have a release because obviously there are a lot of fans that really want an official release-but not a big production, in the theatre, or a lot of hoopla about it.

 

[Michaels Lover]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

You have the foundation of a wonderful point - that energy doesn't necessarily equate to a great performance - but given the situation at hand (Michael's energy/power during the History tour) it somewhat falls apart.

ENTHUSIASM is what drives a performance. Looking at the artist and watching them in their element.

And that's where Michael Jackson excelled. Watch Another Part of Me from Wembley 1988 - he is having an absolute ball. Look at how into the music he gets when he's dancing. How he grins, shouts, claps his hands. In that moment you truly, wholeheartedly believe that he is having the time of his life. Same with I Just Can't Stop Loving You or I'll Be There or any song. The artist has to WANT to do it - that's when it crosses that ever-important line between "okay" and "great".

That isn't the case with the History tour in my opinion. Looking at Michael, there are very few instances in which he looks like he wants to be there. His eyes are stoic. He moves as if he's in a rehearsal rather than on stage.

That's where the difference is. Michael didn't need energy or gusto or any word synonymous with that to give a good performance - he just had to perform like he wanted to be there. And I have yet to see a single History tour show where Michael looks like he wants to be there from beginning to end. A couple seconds here and there aren't enough.

if you don't mind me asking, how many HIStory concerts have you seen? it seems you either have only seen parts of a few of the very "worst ones", or you only want to see what you describe just because it's HIStory tour. your description of his state/condition is very very exaggerated. And the reason I say "parts" of the "worst ones", is because your description is Not even like any of those concerts

this is what I mean with the "worst ones": yes, he was sick on this tour, and his voice didn't always sound very good. and yes, he looks exhausted at some points. it's usually during Stranger In Moscow or up to Smooth Criminal, his eyes are almost closed, and he looks very tired
it was mostly during the first leg, though, and I think all of that was because he was not feeling well.. on the 2nd leg he looks much better and healthier. go watch one of the concerts from either Copenhagen, Gothenburg or Helsinki. he looks and sounds absolutely fine, and he doesn't look or sound sick at all

to say he looks like he wants to be there for only a couple of seconds here and there, is certainly NOT true. you make it sound like he was dragging himself through it looking awful for being forced to do it, and like he didn't look like he have a good time, and I don't see that at all. he talks a lot more than on any of the other tours, and even jokes around with the audience, band mates/other people who work for him, and at some concerts also the camera (and no, not just in Beat It). he DOES look like he's having a good time, throughout the whole show...not just for a few seconds. he smiles and laughs throughout the whole show, right up to the very end, after HIStory is over...
to me, he doesn't look like someone who's suffering or not having a good time at all....the way you make it sound is just wrong and and very unfair. You say you have yet to see a HIStory concert where he looks like he wants to be there from beginning to end. Well, I have yet to see a HIStory concert that's like anything you describe

 

[barbee0715]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

to say he looks like he wants to be there for only a couple of seconds here and there, is certainly NOT true. you make it sound like he was dragging himself through it looking awful for being forced to do it, and like he didn't look like he have a good time, and I don't see that at all. he talks a lot more than on any of the other tours, and even jokes around with the audience, band mates/other people who work for him, and at some concerts also the camera (and no, not just in Beat It). he DOES look like he's having a good time, throughout the whole show...not just for a few seconds. he smiles and laughs throughout the whole show, right up to the very end, after HIStory is over...
to me, he doesn't look like someone who's suffering or not having a good time at all....the way you make it sound is just wrong and unfair

I've seen various History tours-all on YouTube-but I have no idea which ones they are-and many times he looks very, very tired and his eyes don't look happy-usually it's just parts of a show-BUT I have seen scenes of him drinking juice and joking with the crowd, and looking really happy playing and playing and joking around with his band-is all of that on the second leg?

 

[MIST]

Re: A Possible Third Michael Jackson Documentary

I would love to see a HIStory documentary and I want Kenny Ortega to be in it to tell stories about Michael visiting hospitals and orphanages, and how they worked together.