The Change in Michael's Message and Image After 'Thriller'

Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

We get it, you don't like Michael post Thriller for some strange reasons that I believe you haven't confessed

So?
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Michael did what he felt at the moment he felt it. He got inspired and then channelled that into music or dance. An artist cannot be restricted by labels of "role model" or "family friendly", if they want to be truly authentic. Michael experienced the wide spectrum of human emotions, thoughts, and desires just like every other mentally sound person and his music and dance is how he expressed himself.
Being a Jehovah's Witness kept him in a box, creatively. Someone who lives and breathes artistic expression can't be contained in that way forever. Freedom is vital. And evolution is not only natural, it's inevitable and necessary. For the sake of their integrity and their sanity, a lot of artists can't just do the same thing over and over and over again. Breaking free from the JW's allowed him to fully bloom.
If he had stayed in his box he would not have been being true to himself and a lot of his songs/dance/videos would never have made it past being ideas in his head. He would have ended up creatively stagnant and bland, trying to adhere to an image that only represents a part of who he was. People are not just black and white. Yes, Michael was gentle, sensitive, loving, innocent and childlike. But he was also fierce when he had to be, he got angry and frustrated, he hated injustice, intolerance, and suffering, he swore, he drank, he was a grown man who enjoyed sensuality and films containing violence. Whether you like some parts of his art or not is your personal preference, but it is all aspects of the same person expressing himself in the way he wanted to.

Side note: I don't see anything sinister in the TWYMMF video. The whole thing is one long playful tease between both of them. The feel I get from that video is that if she actually wanted to she could have kneed him in his crown jewels at any time and strutted off to the sound of Michael's "gang" laughing in the distance. She's not running scared, her walk is confident and she even stops multiple times to watch him. She is playing hard to get - the conclusion of the video is confirmation of this, if it wasn't already evident. She's disappointed when he seems to disappear and gives him a hug when he comes back.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Did interviewers even ask him about his art and what it meant? It feels like they focussed on the wrong things like plastic surgery.

There was significance and meaning and a lot of it in the Black or White film when he was free of these confines of the JWs then. Not just in the overall sense in terms of the Panther dance within the context of the film (I don't think it's about overt racism, but it looked that way with the additional window signs added after the public complained - see 'Double Consciousness and the Uncanny Business of Performing While Black') but what about other smaller details that offer further insight to his thoughts? For example, why 'Royal Arms Hotel'? It's so prominent there is definitely meaning there, he is saying something with frustration and that's genuine. We can share thoughts but we will never really know if no one asked. Maybe he wouldn't answer questions because he was too polite to upset anyone directly.

Just because moves require no training it doesn't mean they are not significant. If he was singled out I think it was because people misunderstood that. Ultimately we are left trying to decode it on our own.
 
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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

unlike the moonwalk or the robot, grabbing oneself is not a dance step that requires years of practice to master. it's about context too; what was he trying to express in regards to racism by doing that? I seriously doubt that this had been building up inside him since was a young man, or that he was supressed by his religion. rather, he was influenced by what others were doing at the time, and more importantly, it was in response to the criticism that he was too clean cut. it wasn't genuine, which is why he was singled out for it. the public expected that kind of behaviour from those other artists. not Michael.

he marketed himself a role model for the youth. no one made him do that. he (privately, and sometimes publicly) criticised other acts who were raunchy or used profanity. as the president said in '84, he was proof of what one could accomplish with a clean lifestyle. he compromised his values for popularity. it was a step backwards. before he created trends, now he was following them. he never would have commissioned paintings of himself in Jesus' place at the last supper (!) had he remained a witness. or paraded around in military jackets flanked by soldiers. he certainly wouldn't have erected a statue of himself to float down thames. he became larger than life and no one could tell him anything. there was a domineering and sinister energy that seeped into his music and the way he presented himself. what he represented before all of that was something positive and unique.

Michael wore blue in 'the way you make me feel' which featured the crips. should that be looked at as an endorsement? the 'beat it' video may have been fictional, but at least the song was solutions based and represented Michael's true stance on violence (he spoke about this in his autobiography). it had more of an impact as well.

wasn't 'bad' supposed to be about a young man who got shot by a plain clothes police officer? I didn't see any reference of that in the film..

Although I do not agree with this, this is a rather interesting take. Thank you for making the effort to write this.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

he marketed himself a role model for the youth. no one made him do that. he (privately, and sometimes publicly) criticized other acts who were raunchy or used profanity.

So did Bill Cosby and look at where he is today. Eddie Murphy even talked about it in one of his comedy specials in the 1980s. Cosby did not approve of Lisa Bonet acting in the movie Angel Heart or doing the nude cover for Rolling Stone magazine. He fired the actor who played Theo's friend Cockroach on The Cosby Show because he started to grow dreads which Cosby did not want on the show. In his later years Cosby put down young black people who had their pants sagging and talking in Ebonics. Cosby had a clean cut image until a few years ago when the allegations about him surfaced.

as the president said in '84, he was proof of what one could accomplish with a clean lifestyle. he compromised his values for popularity. it was a step backwards. before he created trends, now he was following them.
Did Reagan have a clean lifestyle though? :laughing: Many rock groups were really popular without a clean lifestyle. Eddie Van Halen who played on Beat It definitely was not clean living. The motto is "sex, drugs, & rock n roll". Donny Osmond had a hard time being taken seriously past the 1970s because of his clean image.

Mike always went with what was in, it wasn't like he made
avant-garde music. He made music designed to be as commercial as possible and sell a lot. Destiny & Off The Wall were disco influenced. Thriller had the new wave, rock, light rock and the R&B bass groove sounds of the early 1980s. You can find a lot of early 1980s songs that sound similar to The Girl Is Mine, which in recent years labeled "yacht rock" by comedians. Victory & Bad was synth dance music based, Dangerous was New Jack Swing. Invincible had the slow jam and neo-soul sounds of that period. Butterflies got a lot of airplay on R&B radio stations and is still played today on the "adult R&B" format
 
Jehovah's Witness

Being a Jehovah's Witness kept him in a box, creatively. Someone who lives and breathes artistic expression can't be contained in that way forever. Freedom is vital. And evolution is not only natural, it's inevitable and necessary. For the sake of their integrity and their sanity, a lot of artists can't just do the same thing over and over and over again. Breaking free from the JW's allowed him to fully bloom.
Some people said this happened to Prince when he became a JW around 2000. He stopped using profanity and made his band members put money in a curse jar if they used it in his presence as a fine. Prince wouldn't perform a lot of his earlier music or he changed the words if the song had dirty language. He made an entire album based on being a Jehovah's Witness called Rainbow Children.
 
Re: message

I think you're reading a bit much into this. It's entertainment and Mike was never really just a message singer. Mike has said that one of his favorite movies is The Godfather which is a movie about the mafia. Smooth Criminal's video is based on Girl Hunt Ballet from the movie The Band Wagon. Girl Hunt is a parody of then popular noir movies which often had violence in them.


I agree with you on these points. "Sling Blade" was another favourite movie of Michael's, also the Star Wars franchise. He was into music by Pearl Jam and Nine Inch Nails, etc. Michael didn't switch from "innocent goody-goody" to "controversial bad ass" from one album to the next.....he was always a complex, dichotomous artist with many layers to his personality. The later albums portrayed him exploring all of his personality in the music and also expressing what was going on around him, in terms of societal change. It showed him, with total creative control, spreading his wings. I think it's doing him a great disservice to say that he "created a persona" that was not really him and that the public didn't take seriously.

Like you, I do not accept these interpretations from the other member:
83magic said:
violence was now the solution to solving problems
and
83magic said:
he stalked and harrassed women (the way you make me feel)
. Not at all. In visual art, the formula has always been good v/s bad, where some kind of violence is acceptable, if it means that good triumphs over bad. I do not see stalking and/or harrassment in TWYMMF - it's confident courtship, wooing, the thrill of the chase, the woman playing "hard to get" and so on (all with an audience, too).
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

I'm sorry but this is absolute nonsense. Insanity.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Michael demonstrated more maturity and security in his individuality in 'beat it', than in 'bad' or 'the way you make me feel'. in a way, he was the 'adult' who had to get out of bed in the middle of the night to stop these 'kids' from fighting. the way he strutted into the hallway of his apartment building showed confidence. he didn't want or need to seek approval from any group.

You got a point about the beat it video. even though people claiming it fake it does speak up some questions. this WAS grow up for Michael. insteading of letting the "kids" fight he stops them from fighting. yeah beat it was an great message and very grow up. so yes. i agree with this. (y)

Even though people saying the beat it video was fake it doesn't mean anything. it still speak out a good message so yes. i approved this video and message.

not fighting doesn't make an person soft or anything. it means your are mature and knows better. what fighting and killing gonna do? nothing. it's only gonna make the problem worst. thank you for bringing this up.

 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Beat It was fiction. Also notice that Mike wears a red jacket, which could represent the Bloods. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to try to stop a fight wearing the color of a gang that might be a rival of the 2 gangs in the video.

Oh wow. i never thought of it that way. maybe he wore it because he knew they would stop. so it is still a good message. if he did it just to make them stop then i don't see nothing wrong with it.

Just because Michael wore red jacket doesn't mean anything. Michael's favorite colors were red, black, gold, and i think also blue.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

I never took the BAD video seriously. so.... at the end of the video Michael (Daryll) song alittle message at the end saying his old "gang" friends were doing wrong etc. i don't take the video seriously but it is confusing. Michael first off playing a prep school teenager who been a rolled to an private expensive school then at the end he's still in a "gang" but his "gang" is much bigger and tougher then his old "gang". would that make him in two gangs? greez louise what Michael (Daryll) be doing on vacation? where is mother? does mother knows he's in these "gangs"? my word. they never show his mother but i feel his mom probably wasn't good neither due to the fact she said she would be home by 7 and that it was only an sandwiches in the refrigerator. either that or she working a job that don't pay a lot. which explains why their still living in the hood. also i just notice were his dad at?

if video wasn't one of Michael blackish videos :laughing: i feel sorry for Michael (Daryll) and his mom. wow.

but yeah this video is confusing. maybe BAD was Michael alternative self. a lot people have this. i see it all the time. maybe Daryll was apart of Michael.

in the jet/ebony interview in 1987 he said if your tough then you're BAD. back in the 80's the stuff Michael was wearing was popular and the word BAD mean it cool.

so i don't know.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

The Bad video was based on the life of a real person who was killed. So it would have to follow the story of Edmund Perry, who had the peer pressure when he returned to his hood home from his prep school.

Your right. Michael didn't say it was but did said he saw the story in the newspaper.
 
Bad

Michael first off playing a prep school teenager who been a rolled to an private expensive school then at the end he's still in a "gang" but his "gang" is much bigger and tougher then his old "gang".
He couldn't have been that street with pictures of Luther Vandross, Quincy Jones, Stevie Wonder, & The Manhattans on the wall. :laughing: Unless they're his mom's posters. I don't think any of them would have been seen as someone cool to listen to by young people in the area they lived in during that time period, especially gang members. I think they would more likely to be into rap or at least a then newer singer/group like Al B. Sure!, Janet Jackson, Midnight Star, Jody Watley, New Edition, Guy, Keith Sweat, or Full Force.
 
Like i said early in this thread the way you make me feel video Michael had sexual feelings for Tatiana. that's why though whole video he doing a lot of sexual suggestive gestures in front of her. Tatiana didn't feel bad about it. she already liked him. this was is the BAD era. his image was suppose be "bad boy" "criminal" "gangster" "street gang".

Michael was actually one of people who pick her for the music video because he had sexual feelings for her. he found her beautiful. Tatiana was only wearing dress and high heels boots in the video. she wasn't half naked.

yes it all an act but Tatiana should of known that it was acting. yet Michael was wrong too for only using her for his video just because he had sexual feelings for her.

Michael said he liked her as an friend nothing else but Tatiana on the other hand actually really did like him. you can't help who fall in love with but tatiana should of known this was just for acting.

i actually feel somewhat sad for her and Michael. but it's actually was more Michael who to blame. sorry mike but you should of known better buddy.

also ola ray was in playboy and his sister latoya. Michael said he only liked her as an friend also.

Michael was friends with tupac,biggie,jay-z,diddy beyoncé and many others.

he actually went to the playboy mansion before claimed he wanted to see the "animals."
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

There's an old story about Michael and his brothers pranking some playboy women after leaving some awards thingy. i'm not sure was it the grammys or the american music awards.

they said michael put his head out the window laughing when the car pulled off or something like that.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

I read somewhere thriller was actually suppose to be something sexual but michael said no to it. i don't know if that's real. but i read that up somewhere.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

'thriller' had a mutual courtship between the two leads (even though they were already an item). she actually had dialogue too! when Michael playfully teases and dances around her, she smiles at him. he smiles at her. he places his arm around her. she strokes his chin. the two of them look as though they're in bliss as they walk hand in hand. *this* is romantic chemistry! no one is being forced into anything. they both enjoy spending time together. Michael liked the fact that she thought she was safe with him.

You got a point. the way you make me feel was alittle bit too much but it was the BAD era. tatiana was fine with it as she claims and she even liked him. so i don't know. i kind of see thriller and the way you make me feel kind of the samething expect it was more sexual? i don't know i never found the video bad (no pun) but i did always found it little bit sexual.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

I doubt that she'd feel safe with Michael's behaviour in 'the way you make me feel'. however, that, along with the 'bad' campaign in general, about him trying to be 'one of the guys'. he already told us he wasn't like them in 'thriller', and we believed him. he already told us he was a lover not a fighter, and we believed him. in fact, 'beat it' foretold the future in a way with the line 'but you wanna be bad!'. same with 'that's what you get for being polite'; 'he wants to be so bad all the time getting in, things he can't get out'. the term is used as a negative in both instances.

Yeah your right.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Michael had been dancing for the first half of his life without grabbing himself. I find it hard to believe it was a necessity. the foundation for what he did later on was already laid down. it would have been fine if he was an 'adult' artist like his contemporaries , but he always maintained that he was safe for all ages - especially children. I know some people who got in trouble at school for dancing like Michael because they grabbed themselves. they didn't know any better. they were just coping their hero. parents had every right to be upset with the panther segment in 'black or white'. it made its debut without any trigger warnings to precede it. what does grabbing yourself have to do with protesting racial injustice? according to director john landis, Michael wanted to have a scene where he unzipped his pants!

Steven Spielberg said that if e.t didn't come to Elliot's house, he would have came to Michael's. he described him as a fawn in a burning forest. the last of the living innocents. this was in the early 80's.

You got a point. i'm not sure who was Michael targeting but all that stuff wouldn't be family friendly. lol you got a point. i saw a lot of kids back in the day trying to dance like Michael and they did get in trouble which was hilarious but your right they was just copying their idol. :laughing:
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

the redesign of the jacksons' family home hayvenhurst, was a predecessor to neverland. he was already known as peter pan, and he embraced the term wholeheartedly. which is why he was due to play the role in the movie in '83 as suggested by friend jane fonda. he wouldn't even have to act. just like the scarecrow in 'the wiz'. the character was changed after Michael eventually declined and the role went to robin Williams a decade later.

Wow. i didn't know Michael declined that apart. i always thought they declined it because the media always use to play cruel jokes on Michael. saying he got the part but he didn't.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

once Michael changed his image to become edgy, peter pan was no longer a natural fit. no matter how long he tried to hold on to it. it ceased seeming genuine. I think being a Jehovah's witness kept Michael humble. it shaped his morals, and kept him focused on what was important. I agree with latoya, and what some others in this thread have said, that him doing certain things after he left was an act of rebellion. one that he would pay the price for..

You got a point. but Michael was always humble. and if Michael stayed we wouldn't have Thriller. chances are we would of got something else or it never wouldn't of been happen. thriller was actually suppose to be starlight. it was suppose be something totally different. latoya wasn't good either she did some bad stuff in her life too.

Michael claimed that being JW wasn't apart of Thriller. he did it for fun not to offend anyone. he even did an warning at the beginning of the video to let people know it was just for fun.

Michael image change but he still talked what was important. he never did stopped.

but i get your point. thriller Michael was totally different. his message was sort of different and he was much happier. thriller Michael was actually more kid friendly then then the later eras.

i guess Michael move it more towards probably teenagers. i mean in the BAD era he does plays an teen. so i don't know.
 
mj_frenzy;4270322 said:
There is nothing predatory or creepy in ‘The Way You Make Me Feel’ music video.

That is just another false theory that has been perpetuated for so many years.

I will explain:

Tatiana Thumbtzen accidentally fell down to the ground right after exiting the car, she then stood up and continued to walk again but she was laughing because of her misfortune.

The scene where she fell down was cut off from the official version of the music video, but the director kept the following scene with her laughing.

The director decided to keep the following scene with her laughing because, like Michael Jackson, wanted to show to viewers that there is nothing predatory or creepy in that video.

Also, look how that video ends: at the end Tatiana Thumbtzen eventually hugs him, meaning that it was all part of a playful game all along.

Michael Jackson decided to make that perfectly clear (that there is nothing predatory or creepy in the video’s message) by also putting the moment of the hug on the official cover of that single.

Exactly. and i didn't know she felled.
 
Re: Has Michael ever disappointed you in terms of his studio vocals?

The thing is this was his story, rather than joining someone else's production or whatever. It's hard to articulate what I mean but I can only say that although he may have partly chosen moves for the audience, I feel they were also moves that he wanted to perform himself and he enjoyed that. Take the Panther Dance for example, that was apparently quite loosely choreographed but look at what he was channeling. When he was dancing I think it was genuine in that moment even if he then snapped out of it when the music or dancing stopped. Both can be true: Michael can be a genuinely perfect gentleman off the stage but he can also express another part of himself through a dance. This is just how I see it. We should also bear in mind that sometimes people interpret an artists' work differently than the artist intended so there is probably an element of that.

You got a point. Michael claimed he danced kind of ways for his audiences. so it could of been alittle of both. Michael said went the music started he just would of dance. he couldn't help it. the music just flowed with him. so yeah. it does make sense. lol. :laughing: :D
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

I agree with kids looking at Michael as an role model. everytime i hear people talk about Michael they would say he was their childhood. most stuff with Michael is linked to kids.... Michael wasn't an bad person. but you shouldn't let someone else take care of your kids. he wasn't bad and loved children but i don't know. that does give you something to think about.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Mike went through the first half of his life without Moonwalking. He might have seen The Time, who did the crotch grabbing around 1982. Janet was a big fan of the group. She later found big success working with 2 members of The Time (Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis). Janet said in an interview once that she was embarrassed when she went to one of their concerts with her mother. Not because of the show but that her mother had to be there. I assume that this was probably a Prince concert, since The Time opened for him and most likely it was when Prince was wearing bikini underwear and stockings onstage pre-1999.

Oh wow i never knew that. it's possible.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

unlike the moonwalk or the robot, grabbing oneself is not a dance step that requires years of practice to master. it's about context too; what was he trying to express in regards to racism by doing that?

You got a point.
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Even though Michael had his own things he still went with was popular back then. for example New Jack Swing was starting in the late 80's to early 90's Michael would listen to all the songs and beats what was popular during the time and got his ideas and creatively juices flowing.

i do agree with 83magic means. thillier michael was somewhat cleaner and friendly then the later eras. maybe he did it because he wanted to fit with the others but sadly he didn't have to do that he was already special.

But he couldn't do the same stuff all the time it would of got repeated and boring. that why michael use to always surprise us with something different in every era.
his dance moves even changed.

imagine if michael kept doing disco all the time....????

i read up somewhere BAD was actually suppose be hiphop and michael was suppose be rapping in it or something. but it never happen or something. i think that probably would of been interesting. it was popular during the time especially kids. he did put rapping in his songs in his last 3 albums.
 
DuranDuran;4270342 said:
He might have seen The Time, who did the crotch grabbing around 1982.

The inspiration for Michael Jackson’s crotch grabbing move did not come from members of The Time band who grabbed their crotch on stage.

Actually, Michael Jackson himself came up initially (during the Victory Tour) with the idea of grabbing his belt, not his crotch.

He realized that his female fans liked a lot that particular, sexual suggestive move during those shows (of grabbing his belt), so towards the end of the Victory Tour he decided to go a step further with that move by starting to grab his crotch while performing.

For the subsequent BAD Tour, Michael Jackson decided to complement that move by adding now some more stylistic sexual innuendos, like these chains that he wore around his crotch area which denoted unbridled sexuality.

Aside from his crotch grabbing move, the fact that Michael Jackson began to wear military jackets in various public occasions (from the ‘Thriller’ era onwards) had to do also with his desire to increase his sexual appeal to his female fans even from those early years of his career (because he knew that women are attracted to men who wear such military outfits).
 
Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

and more importantly, it was in response to the criticism that he was too clean cut. it wasn't genuine, which is why he was singled out for it. the public expected that kind of behaviour from those other artists. not Michael.

You got a point.
 
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