The Change in Michael's Message and Image After 'Thriller'

Alh21

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

We all know it was for some of his female fans. but seriously i don't like guys who do that. it's nasty to me and not gentleman like. i understand their males but, it isn't gentleman like. it's an difference from dancing to then to just touch yourself. touching yourself isn't an dance move. but i guess if he was doing it sexually then i guess it a dance move?..... i guess....

hi, do you mind me asking how old you are. u don't have to tell me if u don't feel comfortable with that
 

WannaScream

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

I don't think he did it sexually, as in he wasn't weird or anything, but at the end of the day its Michael Jackson and everything he did was fine by me :laughing:

Ohhh don't tell me some of it wasn't sexual. lol When you edit it together you realise he could have been an exotic/pole dancer haha

 

Alh21

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Ohhh don't tell me some of it wasn't sexual. lol When you edit it together you realise he could have been an exotic/pole dancer haha


haha class, Michael you have been rumbled. I only said I didn't think MJ was being sexual because I didn't want to upset naturecriminal :blush:
 

WannaScream

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

haha class, Michael you have been rumbled. I only said I didn't think MJ was being sexual because I didn't want to upset naturecriminal :blush:


Ooops lol Well, the edit makes it seem like more than it really was. ;) It just made me laugh that people were making these videos lol
 

NatureCriminal7896

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83magic;4270419 said:
why did Michael issue an apology for the panther dance if it was something he truly believed in? he had an opportunity to fully explain the context, but at the time he said that he just wanted to turn the animalists of the panther into a dance.. no mention of racism at all. in fact, those graffiti slurs were only added after the original broadcast. the video could have ended perfectly with the different faces melding into one with the message intact. it seems as though the final section was a spin off from his la gear commercial a year before, and had nothing to do with the song or rest of the video. he knew that it was going to be controversial.

The panther dance is about racism. that was the whole point of the black and white video when Michael dances it was because he was angry. he was tired of the injustice of racism. read up black panther anti-racism group and Michael panther dance you will get the picture. Michael was the black panther in the video and he was mad. the panther dance did look sexually but i don't think it was mean to be. …..i guess.... Michael did say he was sorry. if he did it not for racism then i would very disappointed. racism is more important then dancing sexually. that something serious and shouldn't be taken that way. :(

the graffiti slurs was there in the original broadcast. they took it off was because it was "too much" but in reality it wasn't. it was the truth and it shouldn't been take off. the racist people was mad at the video because it was talking about racism which alot people still don't like to talk about. which a stupid move and they knew it. disgusting. see? injustice. that's why Michael got mad for this type of stuff. speak up about it and racist people get mad about it. that was the whole point of the panther dance anyway and i'm sick of it too.

your kind of right Michael should of talk about the dance. maybe he was scare to talk about it in public so he dances it in the black and white video. Michael was shy man and he was always scare to make people or his fans upset or sad.

i mean look at the they don't really care about us video. the k word was cut out because it offend his jewish friends and fans. he didn't do that on purpose he did it because he care about his jewish friends and fans. he even says sorry and took it out. we all make mistakes and when Michael did he always said sorry.
 
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WannaScream

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

No, it's the other way around - MJ had to graffiti over his own work. Not only do I find the film fascinating but the response to it was too.
 

Alh21

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Ooops lol Well, the edit makes it seem like more than it really was. ;) It just made me laugh that people were making these videos lol

yeah me to, they are very funny
 

NatureCriminal7896

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

No, it's the other way around - MJ had to graffiti over his own work. Not only do I find the film fascinating but the response to it was too.

What are you talking about it? i understand the dance but graffiti on the cars and windows is what i think 83magic is talking about. there was a problem with the graffiti to racist people but Michael dances makes you get the picture.
 

WannaScream

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

What are you talking about it? i understand the dance but graffiti on the cars and windows is what i think 83magic is talking about. there was a problem with the graffiti to racist people but Michael dances makes you get the picture.

I posted a link to an article already. It explains the film as a whole, the panther dance overall, the reaction from the public, the consequence of that, and the questions raised about why society needed racist graffiti on his work to feel comfortable with it. It's not a quick read but it's 100% worth it. It's an academic paper so has proper references etc.
 

NatureCriminal7896

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

By the way i love the black panther dance. this was one of times when he showed his race history. bless you michael you were an genius! people claim he didn't like his race but this is one of the videos were he shows his race. he knows his race and he dancing one of the history of his race. :) thank you michael. love you dear. ??
 

DuranDuran

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double entendre

When did it become the thing that some guys just do anyway i.e completely unrelated to dance? Like you say there is no way to know for sure the exact persons he picked up ideas from.
That has been a thing for a long time, way before Michael started doing it. You can see it in sports. Or when guys brag or make jokes about being bigger than another guy. There's many old songs with double entendre lyrics (Please Warm My Wiener, Sledgehammer, My Pencil Won't Write No More, Big Balls, Big 10 Inch Record, etc.). A particular kind of rock is called "cock rock". Like when the Red Hot Chili Peppers used to perform wearing nothing but a sock on their privates. You can see penis worship in art going back hundreds, maybe thousands of years. It might not be crotch grabbing per se, but kinda represents the same thing.
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83magic

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

people are posting and referencing things that are not within the time frame or context of this discussion. i'll let Michael speak for himself.

here on the set of 'beat it', Michael discusses the concept and message of the video/song, not having street experience, and feeling shy and uncomfortable offstage, his sunday rituals of fasting and dancing, Disney, and redesigning the family home (notice how he perks up at this point)
this diane Collins interview from '83. among many things, he talks about *not* going to discos and preferring to play with his animals. he declined to even talk about marriage.
and finally, my favourite interview from his home in 83/84. unstructured and unguarded, he gleefully sings as he declares himself peter pan. he states that his inspirations are; god, animals/nature, and children.
whether or not this was an act (I don't believe it was), this was how he was known in the early 80s. for drinking carrot juice not beer (his pr people put out a statement that said he was moving that beer can to another location during the 'we are the world' recording. why would he be drinking alcohol whilst working anyway?). his speaking voice was already high, and he was a frequent visitor of Disney land. he was nicknamed 'smelly' by quincy because he wouldn't curse. he was shy, sensitive, gifted and dedicated to his art. not a stereotypical Rockstar that some wanted him to be. that's what made him stand out.
he was a nice guy, and it was a *positive* thing :) one of the reasons why parents embraced the idea of their children looking up to him. listen to the comments below from 0:49 to 1:14
for some reason people are embarrassed by this. we live in a strange world where bad is good and good is bad :(
 

WannaScream

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NatureCriminal7896;4270482 said:
What are you talking about it? i understand the dance but graffiti on the cars and windows is what i think 83magic is talking about. there was a problem with the graffiti to racist people but Michael dances makes you get the picture.

There is a lot in the article but here are a few excerpts:

“Making the Dream Palatable (but to Whom?)
No wonder most subsequent airings of Black or White ended before we even glimpse the black panther and we never see Jackson transform from that animal into his dream self (who might actually be his real self). However, in addition to eliminating the panther dance completely, there is a second recutting of Black or White, one that keeps the panther sequence while making several key changes. Primary among these is an attempt to render the violence intelligible through digitally superimposing racist graffiti on the car and window that Jackson destroys”
The dominant and digitally altered version argues that violence like Jackson’s can be understood only if it comes as a response to overt racism (rather than, as in the original, a response to structural racism)—and in this case Jackson is now taking action against a racism that makes no sense—except to a white audience unprepared to confront Black anger."


"My interest here is in exploring the vilification and misunderstanding of the panther dance as a systematic process tied up quite directly and very deeply with racial dynamics in the United States. If, as Eric Lott says in his own insightful commentary on Black or White, we can take Jackson’s message to be a “report on the contradictions of racial identity,” what is also striking is the systematic way in which that report continues to be either misread, edited, or ignored in ways that support racial hierarchies rather than dismantling them."


In general (but the detailed analysis is fascinating and should be read)

"I will argue that Jackson’s famous four-minute panther dance explores the complexity and impossibility of being a Black performer for popular audiences whose tastes and priorities are largely constructed along the lines of white normativity."


"...there is a palpable tension between what is being represented visually and what is being said; in Black or White the abstraction of language actually undermines what we see. It is no accident that the words of the song continually say “It don’t matter if you’re black or white,” but the song’s title is shortened to Black or White. With this move, what is arguably the song’s key statement—“it don’t matter”—has been redacted, and in contrast what we see, with the bodies on display, is that “it” matters quite a lot. Most reviews took these images at face value, complaining that the representation was hokey and unrealistic. My argument is that, on the contrary, these two-dimensional portrayals were part of the point"

"The appearance of the panther comes just when the idea that we are all getting along is exposed as a production number, and the morphing is revealed to be mere technological tricks. Color blindness, too, is being called out as a technology used by society to achieve “equality” or “democracy.” The whole message is that this “I don’t see color” notion is a sham—and the real world is out there, outside that door that leads into the street. And out there on the street is all that real stuff that we simply cannot or will not talk about. Stuff like racism and sex and violence. And we get all of those in the four minutes that follow, as Jackson wordlessly articulates his anger and rage, using what John Fiske calls the “loud speech” of action taken in the street."


"To clarify the difficult layerings of dream and reality in the panther dance, it is necessary to describe what precedes it. Nothing Jackson does takes place in a free space. Ostensibly the star of Black or White, Jackson is neither the first nor the last person we see in the film: instead, our first glimpse is of the angelic face of Macaulay Culkin, and our last is of Homer Simpson. White families open and close Black or White, setting up the initial conditions for Michael Jackson’s performing while Black: he is framed by whiteness"


"The dream Jackson presents is one of breaking free of the boundaries that have limited his artistry, and under the circumstances, this action cannot be taken without enacting some violence. Black dreams are not about utopia—how could they be"

“Like Dunham’s fantasy ballet, the panther dance rejected the demands of white audiences for “Black entertainment” and instead offered a statement about Black identity. No jungle wiggles, no titillating jiggles. Jackson’s panther dance is a taking off of the mask, a revelation of the abiding rage and anger that whites both fear and suppress: a truth that cannot be morphed into something palatable either in dreams or in reality.”


https://www.academia.edu/2462183/Mi...he_Uncanny_Business_of_Performing_While_Black
 
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DuranDuran

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

his pr people put out a statement that said he was moving that beer can to another location during the 'we are the world' recording. why would he be drinking alcohol whilst working anyway?
It's the job of PR to make celebrities look good to the public and to explain away things. I guess you think Mike writes all of his songs sitting in a giving tree.

and finally, my favourite interview from his home in 83/84. unstructured and unguarded, he gleefully sings as he declares himself peter pan. he states that his inspirations are; god, animals/nature, and children.
What about this though? On Golden Pond was filmed in 1980, so before Thriller

 

WannaScream

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

I don't understand why a fan would reject the Panther dance.
 

Anna

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Re: message

I think it's doing him a great disservice to say that he "created a persona" that was not really him and that the public didn't take seriously.

Agreed.

And Michael's message didn't change. In fact, it wasn't until after Thriller that we got all those songs about the things we know Michael was really passionate about - Black Or White, Heal The World, TDCAU, Earth Song, etc. He just changed his style and explored different things. Michael was not a cartoon character, he had many different interests, thoughts, feelings, and aspects of his personality to express through his art.
 

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

which he would have been entitled to had he not been trying to simultaneously hold on to the child audience. how can you be grabbing yourself with 10 year old macualy culkin on set? how is it appropriate for young brandon adams to be grabbing himself whilst imitating Michael during the 'badder' segment in 'moonwalker'?

*that's* the main issue I have. the two worlds cannot coexist. sooner or later you must choose one. otherwise there is disharmony and chaos. which there was...

I understand what you mean. i'm not sure who was michael targeting to in his later albums. you really can't have it two ways. either your targeting adults or kids or both. michael claimed his image was for everyone to enjoy. i guess michael missed the fact some people wouldn't like his image and his dancing. he should of been more honest about it.

but michael also didn't speak up alot because he didn't want to upset people and his fans. he was an very shy man.
 
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DuranDuran

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image

i'm not sure who was michael targeting to in his later albums. you really can't have it two ways. either your targeting adults or kids or both. michael claimed his image was for everyone to enjoy. i guess michael missed the fact some people wouldn't like his image and his dancing. he should of been more honest about it.
I've never understood this idea of children being "pure and innocent". I went to school as a child and I can say that isn't true.:laughing: One of the reasons Papa Joe had his children practicing music and moving bricks in the yard was to prevent them joining the gangs some of the other kids in the neighborhood belonged to. Gary, Indiana was no Leave It To Beaver land.

I doubt Mike ever only targeted children with his music. You can't say The Lady In My Life or The Things I Do For You were songs for or about kids. Billie Jean is about denying a kid is his and in Wanna Be Startin' Somethin', he says Billie Jean does nothing but gossip. You can kinda say that his songs tend to have a negative view of women (Billie Jean, The Girl Is Mine, Dirty Diana, Heartbreak Hotel, Who Is It, etc).

A lot of the Jackson 5 songs were written for adults or could be sung by adults. There wasn't that many ABC style songs. That's also true about songs by other youth music singers/groups. Even some songs made especially for children & teens might have double meanings. Same for children's TV & movies. They sometimes have jokes and/or visuals that kids might not get, but are put there to keep the interest of their parents. Probably because they are written by adults. The children's host Fred Rogers used to complain about a lot of programming made for children because of this, his show was different from most of the rest.

I've seen comments here about Mike marketing an image to kids. I recall young girls dressed like Madonna in the 1980s, and she had a music video (Open Your Heart) where a boy goes to see a peep show. Arnold Schwarzenegger movies and the popular TV show The A-Team had a child audience too and they were mostly shooting, fighting, and blowing up stuff. Mr. T had a breakfast cereal and a Saturday morning cartoon. Child actors would appear in R rated movies and in soap operas. Soaps aren't marketed to kids. A lot of parents just didn't censor what their kids listened to or watch. There's always been kids taken into R-rated movies by adults.
 

83magic

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

It's pointless to argue about who Michael was because none of us knew. we can only judge based on what he chose to share. what he chose to share during the early 80s was not a profane, womanising, alcohol drinking lover of violence. where were all these sordid stories back then? compare what these same people said about him when he was alive versus after, and you'll see a vast difference.

Michael was already an established songwriter before neverland and the giving tree. the foundation for the topics he would later expand upon were already set. as I've already given examples of.

we all have our preferences when it comes to Michael. the only difference is that i'm in the minority in this community. this thread has spiralled into something else. the images and videos posted here are gross and I wish to have nothing to do with them. we'll have agree to disagree. I don't wish to continue..
 

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

I don't think he did it sexually, as in he wasn't weird or anything, but at the end of the day its Michael Jackson and everything he did was fine by me :laughing:

I don't think so either. but half of time i think he did. and lol.
 

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

I think at the end of the day Michael should of been honest about how he was dancing. i think you can tell an story while moving your body that may seem wrong but in reality it may not seem that way. he really claimed he didn't dirty dance but if he wasn't then what was he doing half the time? if michael wanted to dance like that he could because he was a adult BUT he shouldn't been dancing that way front of children.

maybe he trying to appeal to everyone but dancing that way in front of children wasn't right. at the end of the day some children wouldn't probably understand what he doing so they probably would have dance like him. like 83magic said earlier in this thread.

maybe in some people eyes he was dirty dancing and in others he wasn't. but touching yourself in front of kids isn't right. so i don't know.
 
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NatureCriminal7896

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

haha class, Michael you have been rumbled. I only said I didn't think MJ was being sexual because I didn't want to upset naturecriminal :blush:

I'm fine if you see him dancing sexually. i find half of the time he was. but most the time he wasn't. i'm not upset. it was michael body but he shouldn't of been dancing like that in front of kids though.
 

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Ohhh don't tell me some of it wasn't sexual. lol When you edit it together you realise he could have been an exotic/pole dancer haha


LMBO! okay that was funny! michael gonna kill yall. or would he? michael really should of spoke out about it more even if he didn't want to upset people and/or his fans.
 

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NatureCriminal7896;4270523 said:
it was michael body but he shouldn't of been dancing like that in front of kids though.
But kids of the 1980s & early 1990s were watching other acts on MTV doing much more than what Mike was doing or singing (Madonna, Prince, George Michael, Bobby Brown, 2 Live Crew, Ozzy Osbourne, Mötley Crüe, NWA, Snoop Dogg, Whitesnake, Salt N Pepa, etc). Mike's presented image before and after Thriller was pretty mild compared to other artists. There was a reason Tipper Gore & the PMRC wanted labels put on albums. Which pretty much backfired because kids are gonna want the thing they're told they aren't supposed to have and those parental advisory stickers helped to sell the albums, at least in the beginning. It was free publicity for music. So ultimately it doesn't really matter what image Mike presented since the audience was seeing many other performers doing something else. It's not like people only heard Mike on the radio and only saw him on MTV and other music programs.
 

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Re: the change in michael's message and image after 'thriller'

Ooops lol Well, the edit makes it seem like more than it really was. ;) It just made me laugh that people were making these videos lol

People been making videos like this for a long time. there not new but i have to admit their are hilarious! they just edits not all of them shouldn't be taken seriously.
 
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