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The Brad Sunberg Seminar Leak/Theft of 2023
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Lord Jackson
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Amanda is one of Brad's daughters
I'm fairly certain these are just edited down versions of songs, so as to fit them in the seminar (you don't listen to the whole thing, just the important part)
Sophia2023
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(Hint: It’s too long and in the end it’s just my 2 cents points of views/opinions and who cares -> don’t read! )
I wish I had tons of popcorn the week-end… So many guesses, approximate and judgmental assertions… On all sides… Radically black or white (no pun) opinions while things are much greyer in reality…
And by the way, like many I feel sorry for Brad but interested in the fact that we could heard more stuff in good quality…
First, wrong enemies…
I don’t think Brad is not an enemy of any kind… I think he’s just trying to share some past that he contributed to… Though the seminars have gone to an ambiguous place…
Branca is likely not an enemy either. Though as I mentioned earlier, those parodies on him may be fun as hell and he may symbolise everything the Estate did wrong… But I suppose he’s actually defending MJ’s legacy interests as a lawyer and from the top of his relative fame (TikTok…) … and I’m not exactly sure to what extent he takes the artistic decisions…
The Estate/Sony: It’s actually always unclear to who is to blame between those… But the first thing that comes to my mind here is a variation of Hanlon’s razor which would be "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence and wrong communication"…
The thief? I’ll talk about that part later.
Actual enemies?
- The "loudness was" and the poor quality of recent audio mastering (going on since the early 2000s) … which makes me want to listen (when possible) to records that were manufactured 40 years ago and "DIY audiophile" variations rather than actual recent releases…
- Straight-to-remix production… I still don’t get how that’s respectful to MJ’s works…
- People who actually trying to destroy MJ’s image for money or attention
- Fake songs and fake memorabilia
- …
Some things I want to put back in their right places
- The seminars: As I see it, there are two sides to the seminars.
One is old MJ collaborators sharing their experiences and discussing with people interested in those topics. Nothing to blame here, and it’s good that this is done while they’re not all too old.
The other and ambiguous side is the listening of unreleased materials… More or less like someone wrote earlier, I think that they should be in one of those two places: A – They’re not alright to listen to because they’re not finished and MJ didn’t want people to hear them or B – They’re alright to listen to, but then they should be free or purchasable for anyone. But so far it’s C – People can only listen at seminars…
The result is that it created kind of grey situation where people pay huge amount of money… that are probably mostly just covering the costs of the seminar and not making the organisers rich… and so, some elite among the "fans" can hear those tracks once or twice, and then they will brag about them in all kind of ways, raising the expectations of everyone who was not there…
If I understand it right, current situation was created by "official releases never happening", or happening poorly… Though I don’t think that there was anything bad in the intentions of those who organised those events, it’s probably something that came into place because there were the seminars, and there was the unreleased stuff… but I don’t see this situation as really sane and possibly not that respectful to MJ’s works.
(I wanted to know if it was true that such seminars already existed in the 90s and so were an MJ-approved concept, but got no answer so far.)
- The thief: Some here have known about him for a while since he’s part of the "audiophile" crowd here… Sure, he has extreme methods that I can’t condone, that are not respectful to the organisers, that shouldn’t happen at all… And I read people suggesting worst (so that I sometimes wondered if I was still among MJ crowd… but some things can be attribute to excitement and late-night private conversations… and not be taken too seriously)…
And yet ultimately… it’s not because the Estate doesn’t release stuff that stuff should be stolen… right.
But yet, I think there’s something genuine to his motivations… He seems like some kind of fanatic of "people need to hear MJ’s music"… To a point I can barely understand…
For me, the right vision is to see him more like some kind of "audiophile Robin Hood", rather than any other kind of shady gangster…
(Also, since he claims he returned the laptop, I think it would be fair from Brad if he could confirm that fact, or not?)
(I’m also not convinced that super intimate Brad’s stuff was leaked as he claims in some post… But he’s right to worry about this by the way. And I may be missing info. I hope nothing too bad happened on that side of things.)
- Leaks in general: Likely already been said but MJ’s well-known catalogue is extremely limited. If it was only for the big OTW-to-HIStory albums (and even including Invincible), I would be listening to MJ a lot less… The reason is that those were the first albums I purchased when I was a teenager, and I know them well enough. Luckily MJ as a much deeper catalogue, I use to say "from Big Boy to Xscape" (still not feels right saying "from Big Boy to Thriller 40"… but even there, I have already purchased all the songs that I could (not interested in remixes or rarely)… even on long-time forgotten records that you can’t really purchase anymore (well I may still miss a few things like some instrumentals for Say Say Say and Tell Me I’m Not Dreamin’… and harder to find, instrumentals like Give In To Me and Liberian Girl ). But even that extended catalogue, I had already explored most of it when I was a teenager…
That’s my own situation… But for anyone who is genuinely interested in MJ’s works… and this goes for any artist… the leaks and rare stuff often hold gems that may be less repetitive than the big hits…
I don’t think it’s even disrespectful to the artists overall to listen to those… One reason is that it’s usually not done by people who will disrespect the works but will take them for what they are… Sure, there are stuff the artists didn’t want to release… but there may also be things that they actually liked but only found their way to some b-side or compilation our couldn’t be released at a given time and got forgotten… So, it’s grey-zone.
Back to MJ’s topic, the leaks are a big part of what made me "come back" and rebuild my collection at some point.
And yet from audiophile perspective, the leaks are sometimes simply better quality than than official releases.
I know I often come to the same conclusion but that’s why, I think that the Estate should release rare and leaks in well-mastered (non-remixed, or optionally remixed) and well-packaged releases… so that we can all pay and acquire them legally. (Maybe CD2 of Thriller 40 was a step in that direction, but poorly done…)
Many artists do that kind of things… The oldest example I know of something like this was Black Market Clash (and later Super Black Market Clash), they said they released those because people were paying huge amounts for b-sides on the black market… That was on CBS in the late 70s, they’re now part of Sony’s catalogue, I think.
And the most extensive example I can think of, already mentioned multiple times on this forum, is Bob Dylan’s "Bootleg Series" (again, I think, Columbia -> Sony).
Motown has also been rather good at this with the J5 catalogue.
I’m quite sure such releases could clean a lot of the mess that’s been going on between the Estate/Sony and the people who are actually into MJ’s works… and wouldn’t prevent new hit albums.
What’s really tiring in this community is the fans blaming it all on the Estate (though sometimes they’re right), the Estate or their supporters blaming it all on the fans (sometimes they sound patronising like "MJ is just our dead cash-cow, it’s not about the music anymore so it’s not your business", which legally is true…) …
And actual music is waiting forever…
I must say at some point, not long ago, I thought that all sides had gone so crazy (including also people on ego- and toxic- trips in the community) that I would just freeze any MJ stuff I have and not pay attention to his community/ies… So many people hating or disdaining each other, I must say that’s ruining the whole MJ thing to me a bit… I guess I took a much more cynical point of view nowadays…
I wish I had tons of popcorn the week-end… So many guesses, approximate and judgmental assertions… On all sides… Radically black or white (no pun) opinions while things are much greyer in reality…
And by the way, like many I feel sorry for Brad but interested in the fact that we could heard more stuff in good quality…
First, wrong enemies…
I don’t think Brad is not an enemy of any kind… I think he’s just trying to share some past that he contributed to… Though the seminars have gone to an ambiguous place…
Branca is likely not an enemy either. Though as I mentioned earlier, those parodies on him may be fun as hell and he may symbolise everything the Estate did wrong… But I suppose he’s actually defending MJ’s legacy interests as a lawyer and from the top of his relative fame (TikTok…) … and I’m not exactly sure to what extent he takes the artistic decisions…
The Estate/Sony: It’s actually always unclear to who is to blame between those… But the first thing that comes to my mind here is a variation of Hanlon’s razor which would be "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence and wrong communication"…
The thief? I’ll talk about that part later.
Actual enemies?
- The "loudness was" and the poor quality of recent audio mastering (going on since the early 2000s) … which makes me want to listen (when possible) to records that were manufactured 40 years ago and "DIY audiophile" variations rather than actual recent releases…
- Straight-to-remix production… I still don’t get how that’s respectful to MJ’s works…
- People who actually trying to destroy MJ’s image for money or attention
- Fake songs and fake memorabilia
- …
Some things I want to put back in their right places
- The seminars: As I see it, there are two sides to the seminars.
One is old MJ collaborators sharing their experiences and discussing with people interested in those topics. Nothing to blame here, and it’s good that this is done while they’re not all too old.
The other and ambiguous side is the listening of unreleased materials… More or less like someone wrote earlier, I think that they should be in one of those two places: A – They’re not alright to listen to because they’re not finished and MJ didn’t want people to hear them or B – They’re alright to listen to, but then they should be free or purchasable for anyone. But so far it’s C – People can only listen at seminars…
The result is that it created kind of grey situation where people pay huge amount of money… that are probably mostly just covering the costs of the seminar and not making the organisers rich… and so, some elite among the "fans" can hear those tracks once or twice, and then they will brag about them in all kind of ways, raising the expectations of everyone who was not there…
If I understand it right, current situation was created by "official releases never happening", or happening poorly… Though I don’t think that there was anything bad in the intentions of those who organised those events, it’s probably something that came into place because there were the seminars, and there was the unreleased stuff… but I don’t see this situation as really sane and possibly not that respectful to MJ’s works.
(I wanted to know if it was true that such seminars already existed in the 90s and so were an MJ-approved concept, but got no answer so far.)
- The thief: Some here have known about him for a while since he’s part of the "audiophile" crowd here… Sure, he has extreme methods that I can’t condone, that are not respectful to the organisers, that shouldn’t happen at all… And I read people suggesting worst (so that I sometimes wondered if I was still among MJ crowd… but some things can be attribute to excitement and late-night private conversations… and not be taken too seriously)…
And yet ultimately… it’s not because the Estate doesn’t release stuff that stuff should be stolen… right.
But yet, I think there’s something genuine to his motivations… He seems like some kind of fanatic of "people need to hear MJ’s music"… To a point I can barely understand…
For me, the right vision is to see him more like some kind of "audiophile Robin Hood", rather than any other kind of shady gangster…
(Also, since he claims he returned the laptop, I think it would be fair from Brad if he could confirm that fact, or not?)
(I’m also not convinced that super intimate Brad’s stuff was leaked as he claims in some post… But he’s right to worry about this by the way. And I may be missing info. I hope nothing too bad happened on that side of things.)
- Leaks in general: Likely already been said but MJ’s well-known catalogue is extremely limited. If it was only for the big OTW-to-HIStory albums (and even including Invincible), I would be listening to MJ a lot less… The reason is that those were the first albums I purchased when I was a teenager, and I know them well enough. Luckily MJ as a much deeper catalogue, I use to say "from Big Boy to Xscape" (still not feels right saying "from Big Boy to Thriller 40"… but even there, I have already purchased all the songs that I could (not interested in remixes or rarely)… even on long-time forgotten records that you can’t really purchase anymore (well I may still miss a few things like some instrumentals for Say Say Say and Tell Me I’m Not Dreamin’… and harder to find, instrumentals like Give In To Me and Liberian Girl ). But even that extended catalogue, I had already explored most of it when I was a teenager…
That’s my own situation… But for anyone who is genuinely interested in MJ’s works… and this goes for any artist… the leaks and rare stuff often hold gems that may be less repetitive than the big hits…
I don’t think it’s even disrespectful to the artists overall to listen to those… One reason is that it’s usually not done by people who will disrespect the works but will take them for what they are… Sure, there are stuff the artists didn’t want to release… but there may also be things that they actually liked but only found their way to some b-side or compilation our couldn’t be released at a given time and got forgotten… So, it’s grey-zone.
Back to MJ’s topic, the leaks are a big part of what made me "come back" and rebuild my collection at some point.
And yet from audiophile perspective, the leaks are sometimes simply better quality than than official releases.
I know I often come to the same conclusion but that’s why, I think that the Estate should release rare and leaks in well-mastered (non-remixed, or optionally remixed) and well-packaged releases… so that we can all pay and acquire them legally. (Maybe CD2 of Thriller 40 was a step in that direction, but poorly done…)
Many artists do that kind of things… The oldest example I know of something like this was Black Market Clash (and later Super Black Market Clash), they said they released those because people were paying huge amounts for b-sides on the black market… That was on CBS in the late 70s, they’re now part of Sony’s catalogue, I think.
And the most extensive example I can think of, already mentioned multiple times on this forum, is Bob Dylan’s "Bootleg Series" (again, I think, Columbia -> Sony).
Motown has also been rather good at this with the J5 catalogue.
I’m quite sure such releases could clean a lot of the mess that’s been going on between the Estate/Sony and the people who are actually into MJ’s works… and wouldn’t prevent new hit albums.
What’s really tiring in this community is the fans blaming it all on the Estate (though sometimes they’re right), the Estate or their supporters blaming it all on the fans (sometimes they sound patronising like "MJ is just our dead cash-cow, it’s not about the music anymore so it’s not your business", which legally is true…) …
And actual music is waiting forever…
I must say at some point, not long ago, I thought that all sides had gone so crazy (including also people on ego- and toxic- trips in the community) that I would just freeze any MJ stuff I have and not pay attention to his community/ies… So many people hating or disdaining each other, I must say that’s ruining the whole MJ thing to me a bit… I guess I took a much more cynical point of view nowadays…
Last edited:
Fuzball
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So, these edits are actually the album cuts we all know, just ripped/transfered from a non-brickwalled source, right?
I knew that Amanda's his (eldest?) daughter, btw.
Fuzball
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This! John Branca & John McClain are both to blame for this.
Possible I didn't put them in the same category, like I think we can blame some decision and some project at some point, without necessarily blaming persons overall.
SmoothGangsta
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People make decisions
AlwaysThere
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It’s remarkable that you’re defending this because you don’t like the estate. As if they’re mutually exclusive things. Comical.
No estate owes the fans anything. I will argue to my dying breath that the MJ estate has done a better job at shepherding his legacy forward than any other deceased artist’s has. But when you’re so narrow-minded to only consider new music as viable projects (spoiler: they aren’t), of course you’d suggest otherwise. I won’t change your mind but objectively, the idea that the estate is in any way to blame here is absolutely asinine.
Sure but, the thing is MJ did all of his career... around music... so it can't be neglected either...
Mister_Jay_Tee
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You dare challenge me?
Lord Jackson
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As far as I know, yes this is correct.
Lord Jackson
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no, they were added in 86
if you don't know something, that's fine, but please don't spread misinformation
SmoothGangsta
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So the version that Steve played is pretty much the original version, then? I thought he implied he was adding stuff and finishing the songs.
Lord Jackson
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All he did was add some horns and replaced the drum machine with Jeff Porcaro playing drums
Allegedly the outro was moved as the intro, since Damien Shields claims he heard a version where the "Chicago" chant is heard at the end, not the beginning.
Steve made no mention of this though...
Lord Jackson
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IMPORTANT STATEMENT FOR ALL
I've seen misinformation about this so I'll just say it once, here.
Brad's laptop and hard drive have been returned since Saturday morning.
Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
That is all
I've seen misinformation about this so I'll just say it once, here.
Brad's laptop and hard drive have been returned since Saturday morning.
Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
That is all
ChanceToDance
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The thing is that this would've been huge if we weren't already spoiled by the leaks in November. Willing And Waiting? And the highly acclaimed Chicago 1945? Both in CDQ? The whole fandom would be losing their minds lol.
Fuzball
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Were the vocals rerecorded in 1986?
innuendo141
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Please elaborate?
Fuzball
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The estate should have the master tapes of all leaked songs. Brad has just work tapes (or copies of them).
Fuzball
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ChanceToDance
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Was the thief able to recover any deleted files from Brad's laptop?
innuendo141
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Yeah I just saw he was asking for money on Discord. Not surprised, a low life thief begging for money.