Where Invincible went wrong

You have no idea then how MJ was perceived by most of the world outside of MJ fans in the early 2000s , he was the butt of all jokes, a weirdo , a freak , a child molester, a has been. A lot of this stigma where Invincible was also caught up in it.
No offense, but shut up. Of course I know that. Who wouldn't know that? And who cares? They've been saying that since 1984, 1987. Why are you hung up on that? They tear down any celebrity as soon as they can, have you been to Twitter? The fans enjoyed him and we're talking about the fans I thought, you can pivot to the commoners as you wish, though they really by and large didn't care either way. You said ignore the reviews and I am.

He's the mother of all oddballs but he's also the most popular musician in all of human society. He's literally everything everyone says he is all at the same time. It's like talking about life and death almost.

The commoners were hyped for thriller in the 80s, weren't they "fans" though? Is a fan just a one and done deal or anyone who ever said "Ok it's a catchy song." This whole discussion is too nuanced for any dogmatic simplistic take. But like I said, there was an oversaturation.
 
It did though 😂 you are a right character ain't ya Agonum. Can I ask a personal question, are you bald with a beard and wear glasses?

You are pathetic, I'd love to kick the shit out of you

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I've always enjoyed you rock my world , the bridge is one of my favourite parts in it.

I sound like a broken record but you will know that at time of release, it wasn't that well received either but as the years have gone on, it's been receiving much more love than it did when it first came out!
The retrospective praise is cool. The thing about media rereviewing stuff is fake to me anyway. They killed Diana and then they wrote obituaries. It's lip service from beginning to end anyway. They've always treated MJ like some wild weekend fling they wanna pretend didn't happen.
 
just saw this thread and i'd have to personally say that invincible is my favorite michael album, way too overhated. It's grown on me heavily over the years and i honestly consider it to be the perfect michael album.
Same, I love most of the uptempo songs on the album and reading this thread hurts lol
 
Everyone that posts a new thread with the word "Invincible" in the title should be instantly banned.
@Mister_Jay_Tee when we making invincible thread N#329?
I'm thinking "What songs do you wish charted higher in radio"

That'd basically be an Invincible thread in spirit

Did you agree with my takes in this thread too lol?
 
I'm thinking "What songs do you wish charted higher in radio"

That'd basically be an Invincible thread in spirit

Did you agree with my takes in this thread too lol?
Pretty much, although i hate every single one of you that contributes to this, as someone in this same thread said before, i wouldn't mind if someone necro bumped a 10 year old thread ABOUT Invincible at all, in fact, PLEASE do lmao
 
I'm thinking "What songs do you wish charted higher in radio"

That'd basically be an Invincible thread in spirit

Did you agree with my takes in this thread too lol?
No, this is about Invincible. You either make a thread about how garbage or underrated it is.
 
Pretty much, although i hate every single one of you that contributes to this, as someone in this same thread said before, i wouldn't mind if someone necro bumped a 10 year old thread ABOUT Invincible at all, in fact, PLEASE do lmao
I got caught up :( Buffalo Bill shot a lot, but did he ever get killed?
 
While Invincible has some songs that I like on it individually, I don't think it holds up well as an album. I don't mean this as any disrespect to Michael. I think his other albums were great. Just not Invincible. A couple reasons why
  • It has too many producers - it didn't feel cohesive or like an album at all. It felt like just a collection of random tracks strung together in a haphazard way. The first half is too electric dance-track heavy and the second half is too ballad heavy. I know MJ got a lot of co-producer credits, but just like his co-writing credits, I am really skeptical that he had much to do with most of the production on the album. He seemed disengaged in general during this time, probably in part because of the medications he was being given by his crooked doctors.
  • There's nothing that ties the album together. HIStory also had a lot of producers, but that album had a clear theme (the false allegations and his response to them) that Invincible lacked. Invincible has neither a cohesive theme nor even a cohesive sound. Not only do many of the instrumentals sound radically different from each other, but the way the vocals are mixed/processed is very inconsistent from song to song. I remain convinced that Teddy Riley did some weird digital processing to Michael's voice on Heaven Can Wait, 2000 Watts, and Whatever Happens, possibly he pitch-shifted it down a little bit or did some weird formant processing on it.
  • The awful skit before You Rock My World - why? Just why?
  • It seems Michael had very limited involvement with the songwriting. While he gets credits on nearly every song in the booklet, it seems he had nothing to do with the writing of most of them. Break of Dawn had to be included on Number Ones to appease Dr. Freeze after Michael got a writing credit for it on Invincible, and the demo of Whatever Happens that was presented to Michael's team is exactly the same song as the one on the album. Ditto for Heaven Can Wait.
  • Michael also didn't use much of his vocal trademarks (hee hee, etc...) on Invincible, apparently because the label told him not to. This, combined with most of the songs being from outside sources means that a lot of Invincible doesn't really feel like Michael being Michael.
  • The album is just too long - the ideal album length is 45-60 minutes. Less than that and it feels too abrupt, more than that and it drags on for too long. Invincible drags on too long. You could easily trim 5-10 minutes just by reducing the amount of looped electronic beats in the dance tracks (look at the radio edit of Unbreakable for a good example of how to do this), cutting the YRMW skit
  • The tracks could have been arranged better. No need to lead the album with 3 very similar upbeat dance tracks that are all in minor keys with a rap break in the middle. Maybe this was done because Rodney Jerkins had a lot of clout at Sony at the time and wanted his tracks to come first?
So, essentially, the problem with Invincible is that it is too long, internally inconsistent, with a very haphazard-seeming sequencing of the tracks, and a lot of it doesn't seem to have much of Michael's unique artistry in it (i.e. it seems very generic).

And a lot of the best songs from those sessions were not used. Blue Gangsta and Escape are way better than most of the material on Invincible. A Place With No Name, the contemporized Xscape version, is terrific, but the original version is a little bit bland for my tastes.

Let's look at another album made by a big 80s star in his mid-40s that was a comeback of sorts after a few years away from the music industry - For The Love Of Strange Medicine by Steve Perry (formerly of Journey). Like Invincible, FTLOSM was both a comeback and an end for Perry...he didn't make another solo album for 24 years (and for most of that time, it seemed as if FTLOSM would be the last album he ever made, just like Invincible wound up being for Michael).

  • 9 of the 11 tracks were produced by Jimbo Barton (2 with Perry as a co-producer), the other 2 were co-produced by Perry and Tim Miner. This gives FTLOSM a consistency in terms of sound/arrangement/mixing that makes it hold together as a cohesive whole
  • Perry genuinely cowrote all of the tracks, he didn't just buy demos from random people and slap his name on them. (BTW, does anyone know why Michael did this for Invincible? He had never done this before, all his previous albums, he only got a writing credit on a song he actually wrote, what changed for Invincible?)
  • Most of the musicians are the same on all the tracks. Miner plays piano on both of his songs, and bass on one of them, and the rest of the songs are split between two different bassists, but other than that, it's the same guitarist, drummer, and keyboardist on all the tracks.
  • The album has, while not exactly a theme, a sort of "mood" through the entire thing, reflective and tinged with sadness. Compare this to Invincible which jumps all over the place, from happy, to sad, to sexy, to angry, etc...
  • FTLOSM doesn't have weird spoken skits, random sound effects opening songs, looped computer beats, etc...and it has 5 fewer songs, so it clocks in at 53, so it doesn't feel like it drags on and on the way Invincible does
  • FTLOSM is sequenced much better. Both sides have a nice mix of uptempo tracks and ballads, and the songs flow together really nicely. Using "Anyway", a song dedicated to his ex-Journey bandmates as the closing track was a nice touch, especially when he reunited with Journey 2 years later to make his final album with them.
I know this is probably the first Steve Perry comparison on this forum, but I think it's an interesting and sensible one.
Wow, you bring up great points there about Invincible! And 10000 bonus points for mentioning FTLOSM........I'm a hardcore Journey fan on the same level as I am of MJ, and never in a million years did I think I'd ever see FTLOSM mentioned on here! 🤯:ROFLMAO:(y)
 
Albums can have a theme or not, usually they don't.
MJ albums specially always were just a compilation of hits essentially, AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
Thriller and Bad are the perfect examples.
If MJ released a million albums every few years like some artists do, and you told me Bad was just a greatest hits comp, i would totally believe you.
 
This is what you wrote. You state that the songs are similar, but you obviously cannot explain in what way.
I can perfectly explain but as I said it's not relevant. It was just an example of an older song that was better than 'Don't walk Away'
 
I never mentioned reviews. You're saying it was universally panned, idk who it is supposed to be universally?

The fact that MJ sold out MSG, could dance with Chris Tucker and Usher to YRMW and get astronomical hype could appear at Jay-Z, N-Sync, and James Brown performances, and get the same amount of hype at them all, certainly showed he was not "washed" up.

And I don't remember every single incident involving "Invincible" and I doubt you do too. I just remember my sister had the CD and played it, and enjoyed it. And my mother, who was a traditional Jackson's fan, and my dad, who always liked Prince more than MJ anyway, he liked it too. People that listened to the music just, enjoy the music, okay? You seem to have a very high standard anyway, you actively dislike 80% of his discography anyway, I barely even get your tastes.
Yes was MJ 'washed' up at the time, no one really cared about him. The reason people still had some interest in him was probably because he used to be a legend to them; to pay respect to that, big media frenzy or hoping he would become cool again
 
I can perfectly explain but as I said it's not relevant. It was just an example of an older song that was better than 'Don't walk Away'
That type of response from him is exactly the reason why I can't stand him.

You shouldn't have to explain anything or prove your point.

You should also be able to express how you feel about certain songs without being questioned. It's not up to him to dictate what you say on here.
 
Albums can have a theme or not, usually they don't.
MJ albums specially always were just a compilation of hits essentially, AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
Thriller and Bad are the perfect examples.
If MJ released a million albums every few years like some artists do, and you told me Bad was just a greatest hits comp, i would totally believe you.
Exactly.
 
Yes was MJ 'washed' up at the time, no one really cared about him. The reason people still had some interest in him was probably because he used to be a legend to them; to pay respect to that, big media frenzy or hoping he would become cool again
Are you speaking for yourself?
 
They probably mean the general view of the public at the time in 2001, especially in America and the UK
Well it's as I said, most of them didn't care either way probably. The general view of the public today is more or less the same as it was then. And of many other celebrities. Michael Jackson may have been ridiculed but he never got as whole sale condemned suspiciously as say, your Jonathan Majors or so.
 
One thing I always wonder is if Mike would have come out with singles, eventually leading to an album late 2000's, how it would have sounded compared to Invincible?

Damien Shields kindly shared that Mike was really influenced by a lot of rap and hip hop beats later in his life. I wonder if that would have been the direction, or perhaps he would have released the finished version of APWNN from 2008 and gone down that road with it
 
Well it's as I said, most of them didn't care either way probably. The general view of the public today is more or less the same as it was then. And of many other celebrities. Michael Jackson may have been ridiculed but he never got as whole sale condemned suspiciously as say, your Jonathan Majors or so.
What do you mean most of them didn't care? Didn't care about what?
 
I can perfectly explain but as I said it's not relevant. It was just an example of an older song that was better than 'Don't walk Away'
It is relevant for your statement. Otherwise, why would you even bring up Dreams Away in the first place?
 
That type of response from him is exactly the reason why I can't stand him.

You shouldn't have to explain anything or prove your point.

You should also be able to express how you feel about certain songs without being questioned. It's not up to him to dictate what you say on here.
What are you even talking about? Do you have some kind of reading comprehension disability?
 
We're talking about the general public. They don't pay that much attention to celebrities.
Of course they do 😂

Michael Jackson was pretty much the most famous and scandalous man in the world , the public was very much interested in Michael the celebrity rather than MJ the musician by 2001.
 
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