A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality [Discussion]

[dmehta]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

To those of you saying they would prefer poor quality audio if that meant better quality video than the VHS source, i'd say this: to really capture the live experience, the quality of the audio is essential. The Estate had an option of using a gig with mult-track audio recordings or standard FOH mixes. The choice between the two is obvious! You have to go with the concert that was recorded to multi-tracks. As long as the video we get has been restored to a decent quality, I think the DVD will be great. Yes, we'd all prefer HD/Blu-Ray quality video, but it was either a choice of great quality video, but piss poor sound, or decent quality video with pristine audio. Th Estate have made the right choice.

 

[Topcronos]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

Release good quality 1st leg Japan - but piss fans off as it's been widely available and seen by most

Release good quality video but weaker audio - but piss fans off because they can't enjoy the live singing

Release good quality audio but weaker video - but piss fans off because they can't see the performance well

Try a mix and match of good audio and video from different shows or make a concert from best takes from multiple concerts - but piss fans off because it's not authentic concert experience and it's a cut / paste job

Don't release anything as they don't have the "perfect" product - but piss fans off because they waited and asked for Bad tour performance for so long.

I think you summarized perfectly the situation the Estate faced and how they needed to arbitrate between the various options they had.

I am very glad they went for the option of an unaltered and full concert, mixed with a top notch audio source, for all fans to retrieve and discover the true magic of a Bad Tour concert.

I was 9 years old in 1988 when the Bad Tour visited Paris. As you can imagine I was a huge MJ fan at this time. My neighbor was attending the concert and proposed to bring me in but my mother refused pretending I was too young. :no:
Since then I kept on making criticism about her decision.
On June 26th 2009, my mother texted me about MJ's passing and apologised for not having permitted me attending the concert...

And 25 years later, we finally have a chance to see it ! Come on guys, we've all been waiting for this for so long ! I am just getting nuts about it and the upcoming release in September :woohoo:


I understood the Estate have access to Umatic tapes from other concerts. I do believe the sound quality may not be good...look at Rome 88 Lounis sourced. It is also duplicated from the Jumbotron feed and the audio is really not good, its merely 'ok'. Not up to live cd/dvd standards. Video quality is perfect though....
On top of the Wembley release, I think a compilation of Bad tour peformances is still a very good option to choose from. They could use Umatic sources mixed with good quality audio such as Yokohama, Wembley, Tokyo 88 and probably others.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

To those of you saying they would prefer poor quality audio if that meant better quality video than the VHS source, i'd say this: to really capture the live experience, the quality of the audio is essential. The Estate had an option of using a gig with mult-track audio recordings or standard FOH mixes. The choice between the two is obvious! You have to go with the concert that was recorded to multi-tracks. As long as the video we get has been restored to a decent quality, I think the DVD will be great. Yes, we'd all prefer HD/Blu-Ray quality video, but it was either a choice of great quality video, but piss poor sound, or decent quality video with pristine audio. Th Estate have made the right choice.

Or release live CD of Wembley "to really capture the live experience". And any other show on DVD with great picture quality with "standard FOH mixes". In my opinion picture is most important thing when you watch DVD even if it is a live concert.

 

[tricia70]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

This is a concert and not some sitcom dvd. So HQ audio is very much necessary. Some of us have home theater systems. Aaaaaand the cd will have 80% of the concert.

I agree. HQ audio is huge. For example with TII, ppl would turn on their BR/or DVD and turn the volume up so to enjoy the great sound and music,more like an audio experience with moving pictures. And I believe, that if HQ audio wasn't provided for this concert and only HD video, there would be a huge outrage from the fans for sure.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

Well, I would like to point out something, especially to the new fans who unfortunately had no opportunity to witness MJ's BAD era and before (and to some older people like me who seem to be struck by amnesia).

Michael Jackson DID NOT record things for fun. If he did it, it was for his private collection and he wouldn't need a HQ camera for that.

Facts:

The Jacksons DID officially release a live album. This indicates that Michael Jackson profesionally recorded his live performances and that he did care.

I can swear back then I also saw a VHS release of the Triumph concert.

Furthermore, during BAD Tour it was all over TV and it was far from being "fun". It was "CHURCH AND ROCK 'N' ROLL". Already back then fans thought that the BAD concert was going to be released on VHS. Anyway, it was all over the media, in the newspapers, and even in school magazines.

Today this constant use of "for fun" argument seems to apply for the Cascio songs, for the BAd Tour, and God knows what in the future.

Another fact, Dangerous Tour was fully recorded and broadcast on TV, then officially released.

Another fact, History Tour was broadcast on TV, and later officially released in Korea.

Another fact, MSG concert was broadcast on TV.

I am not aware whether Yokohama VHS Tour was officially released in Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case.

So what is this all of sudden MJ's recording for fun argument? To me this is again underestimating Michael's seriousness in his work.

As I stated earlier, MJ didn't want SONY to get all MJ's video catalog, so he kept it away from SONY/ATV. There's no fun going around.

 

[Zakk]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

or release Tokyo and Rome 88 with restorable picture quality and great audio just look at the quality of the rome promo tape, Near HD picture quality and great audio.

 

[mjj19582009]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

Do you think it's possible in the near future for more bad tour dvd's to be released with some not so good of a audio but yet good visual?

 

[MichaelD]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

I just hope they leave it 4:3. It'll be a shame if they cut the image. Video quality is one thing (which is obviously only enhancable until a certain point and therefore not 100% in the Estate's hands) but cutting the image must not be done. I'd rather have black borders than a cropped image!

 

[Zakk]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

Do you think it's possible in the near future for more bad tour dvd's to be released with some not so good of a audio but yet good visual?

if they find the master tapes then they will release the Bad Tour on Blu-Ray eventually.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

or release Tokyo and Rome 88 with restorable picture quality and great audio just look at the quality of the rome promo tape, Near HD picture quality and great audio.

There is no great audio for any other second leg show other than Wembley according to the Estate and Go Flying.

 

[Zakk]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

guys if they discovered the master tapes to what... 5 second leg concerts do you think they would release them on Blu-Ray eventually? i sure hope so.

 

[Zakk]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

There is no great audio for any other second leg show other than Wembley according to the Estate and Go Flying.

oh ok, did go flying say whether TWYMMF was on the show or not? if so please pm me the answer thanks.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

I just hope they leave it 4:3. It'll be a shame if they cut the image. Video quality is one thing (which is obviously only enhancable until a certain point and therefore not 100% in the Estate's hands) but cutting the image must not be done. I'd rather have black borders than a cropped image!

I would prefer 16:9. I hate black bars on the side.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

As Ivy said, it's highly probable that Michael never recorded these for a full release, but he probably had other business ventures in mind i.e. promotional videos, examples to show Pepsi to perhaps renew their deal in '91/'92 etc. Plus, we all know Michael loved to document everything, so it was a form of fun for him. His private home movies are an example of things recorded for fun i.e. behind the scenes footage of short films etc.

And besides, all concerts that were televised are available in some format, and judging by this statement even the masters are available i.e. Yokohama. No doubt the concerts that didn't see some kind of release were put into storage. After all, Michael didn't like to live in the past. As soon as an era was over and done with, he would have everything put in storage and begin again. The idea that he wouldn't want to release concerts - a constant reminder of imperfections and a visual embodiment of the past - is completely feasible. Hell, the first MJ concert commercially released was in 1997... AND ONLY IN KOREA!!! Bucharest was only released when The Ultimate Collection came along, and thus it could be seen as some kind of contractual obligation fulfilment.

Plus, let's not forget that Michael often made gifts of his ventures in the past i.e. allegedly giving people unreleased songs and the VHS of Buenos Aires etc. These recordings could've been given away to numerous people in Michael's staff. The possibilities are endless for where these recordings and numerous unreleased items could be!

Jesta, you are too young. Bucharest was broadcast in the beginning of the 90s. I recorded it on my VHS. Yes it was released only later, but the fact is that it was broadcast on TV years before.

 

[Zakk]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

I hope they don't distort or compress the picture, and I'm glad the estate are doing their best for this release I'm sure the quality of the final product will be much higher then the previews and teasers we have seen.

 

[WildStyle]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

If it's not on 16mm or 35mm film then there is no point of a blu ray release because it wouldn't be able to be brought up to the standard of blu ray. Umatic tape transfered to blu ray wouldn't look all that great. We just have to hope that the footage exists somewhere in 16mm or 35mm format.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

oh ok, did go flying say whether TWYMMF was on the show or not? if so please pm me the answer thanks.

He didn't say anything about the setlist. Look few pages back what he said about picture & sound quality. Pretty much the same what the Estate said in the announcement. Only Wembley show was recorded on mulititracks and that is the only show with the best audio that is possible. Estate have one Japan concert (probably Yokohama) with original master tapes and great audio. All other shows that they have either on mastertapes or on VHS have poor audio quality ("the audio is extremely problematic and therefore these concerts are unusable"). In my opinion all fans would want to see some of those concerts despite the audio not being recorded on multitracks.

 

[WildStyle]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

I would prefer 16:9. I hate black bars on the side.

The problem with that is, the image would have to be enlarged further to fill out the entire screen, thus more loss of image quality. And also Michael's feet would be cut out of the shot a lot meaning you wouldn't be able to see his dancing. the estate will do the right thing here and release it 4:3 as it was originally shot.

 

[ivy]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

@Bumper

"for fun" was used by the colorist Warren - see here " it seemed at times they were shooting film for fun".

I merely repeated how he described the film, it wasn't an argument or new idea introduction.

If he did it, it was for his private collection and he wouldn't need a HQ camera for that.

yeah exactly what I said. Not perfect conditions - FOH audio , not HQ cameras and the storage of this in his own storage and not archives of record or production companies indeed signal that these were intended for his private collection / use and not necessarily for a public release.

 

[Eric]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

I would prefer 16:9. I hate black bars on the side.

If the original source is 4:3 and they release it 16:9, that would mean they would have to cut out part of the image. I much rather have the complete image at 4:3 than the partial image at 16:9. If they release it at 4:3, you can use the stretch and zoom features of your TV to get rid of the black bars on the left and right.

 

[dam2040]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

Jesta, you are too young. Bucharest was broadcast in the beginning of the 90s. I recorded it on my VHS. Yes it was released only later, but the fact is that it was broadcast on TV years before.

BBC, with the radio broadcast the night of the show. There was a highlights show on BBC the next week, I believe?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

@Bumper

"for fun" was used by the colorist Warren - see here " it seemed at times they were shooting film for fun".

I merely repeated how he described the film, it wasn't an argument or new idea introduction.



yeah exactly what I said. Not perfect conditions - FOH audio , not HQ cameras and the storage of this in his own storage and not archives of record or production companies indeed signal that these were intended for his private collection / use and not necessarily for a public release.

But the fact is that he DID use HQ cameras. And when you look back you can easily conclude that MJ certainly intended to releaee BAD Tour. Just instead, he agreed with TV channels worldwide to broadcast his concert in Romania live on TV. It was only a few years after BAD Tour. I highly doubt that MJ after that didn't have other plans for BAD Tour video. As a businessman he knew perfectly well that it would be a perfect asset for a later release.

 

[Jesta]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

Jesta, you are too young. Bucharest was broadcast in the beginning of the 90s. I recorded it on my VHS. Yes it was released only later, but the fact is that it was broadcast on TV years before.

I know, but my point was (though I don't know if I made it clear) was that concerts that were already released in some form were probably taken more care of and were more viable to be released i.e. Bucharest and the ready availability of Yokohama masters and the abundance of HIStory Tour concerts. Why would Michael release Bucharest of all concerts? He probably had easier access to the masters because it had been released beforehand i.e. broadcast. That's what I meant. Ergo, most Bad Tour masters were stored away with little effort to keep track of them because they had not been used to the same scale as Yokohama, Bucharest and even Munich 1997.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

BBC, with the radio broadcast the night of the show. There was a highlights show on BBC the next week, I believe?

Yes, it was a live performance directly broadcast on TV, indeed by BBC. If I am not mistaken the DVD release is slightly different from that TV broadcast.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

I know, but my point was (though I don't know if I made it clear) was that concerts that were already released in some form were probably taken more care of and were more viable to be released i.e. Bucharest and the ready availability of Yokohama masters and the abundance of HIStory Tour concerts. Why would Michael release Bucharest of all concerts? He probably had easier access to the masters because it had been released beforehand i.e. broadcast. That's what I meant. Ergo, most Bad Tour masters were stored away with little effort to keep track of them because they had not been used to the same scale as Yokohama, Bucharest and even Munich 1997.

I don't know if you realize but the timelapse between BAD 1988 or 1989 and Dangerous Bucharest is merely of 3-4 years. It is as if all of sudden tehy lost all master tracks of Ultimate Collection which was released 8 years ago (the double in years).

 

[Jesta]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

I don't know if you realize but the timelapse between BAD 1988 or 1989 and Dangerous Bucharest is merely of 3-4 years. It is as if all of sudden tehy lost all master tracks of Ultimate Collection which was released 8 years ago (the double in years).

What I'm saying is that - because Bucharest had already been broadcast in the 90s - it was probably taken care of better than other masters and it could very well have been duplicated to be given to other broadcasters, thus making it easier to locate. If something wasn't intended to be released, it's reasonable to believe that it wouldn't be guarded so fervently as something that is or was.

 

[lom kit]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

I don't know what company they are talking about. but I know that the Apollo 11 restoration was a huge deal back in 2009. It was widely reported that Neil Armstrong's walk on the moon footage was lost. The reality was NASA used to record every mission in full on film but as it required too much film, they would tape over the later missions on the same film so they didn't have the original masters. It was remastered from a 40 year old recording of the TV broadcast.

When they said NASA that's the thing that I remembered. Again I don't know what firm or what technique the Estate is talking about.



Well as I said before the statement was released on Monday and I had contacted them on Tuesday and they had said it'll be addressed. and now they started to address it. so some speculation and negativity was unneeded IMO. People could have waited for the upcoming statement.

It is Lowry digital. I've just read today about that Nasa thing they did.

And wasn't you one of the who said that the concerns are reasonable?

the negativy came from those who think that we've complained, just because we don't jump for joy and are not unpretentious like some here. And the statement came that soon because of all that. else they could have left us till the release, without a single answer.

Still thank you that you reacted so fast.

how did you come to this opinion?

What I am reading from the statement is that Nocturne turned over everything to Michael's staff and everything was sent to Michael's storage facilities in LA.

There's no indication that Nocturne has anything in their possession.

In the statement they say that the projections of the Jumbotrones are caputured on Umatic tape and given to Michael.
No where is talking about the recordings on film. thats two different things. the negatives from all cameras must be edited to one and then masters to be created. And if that wasn't done and the reels are given just to Michael, now there are somewhere in the basement and problably totaly useless by now.

there is no indication that they don't have anything too. As far i can remember Birchy contacted them about if recordings exist. thre was no mention of who has them. they just say plenty and one of History was shot in HD.

Now if the recording on film is done not by Nocturne, thats different story.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

What I'm saying is that - because Bucharest had already been broadcast in the 90s - it was probably taken care of better than other masters and it could very well have been duplicated to be given to other broadcasters, thus making it easier to locate. If something wasn't intended to be released, it's reasonable to believe that it wouldn't be guarded so fervently as something that is or was.

I think u r misunderstanding what I was trying to say.

Was/is the master film lost forever? I don't believe so.
Was/is the master film somewhere there, I do believe so, but teh Estate doesn't seem to know where.

Did MJ intend to release BAD tour, I believe so, but not under ATV/SONY.
Did MJ do things for fun? At times during rehearsals, at times during recordings probably a bit, but when performing and recording professionally certainly not. His business was at stake.

 

[Renan_Antonio]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

Well, I guess what we can do now is pray that they find those films and release Blu-Rays of MJ's concerts someday!

 

[Jesta]

Re: A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality

I think u r misunderstanding what I was trying to say.

Was/is the master film lost forever? I don't believe so.
Was/is the master film somewhere there, I do believe so, but teh Estate doesn't seem to know where.

Did MJ intend to release BAD tour, I believe so, but not under ATV/SONY.
Did MJ do things for fun? At times during rehearsals, at times during recordings probably a bit, but when performing and recording professionally certainly not. His business was at stake.

That's completely fair enough. I too believe that the masters are somewhere and not truly lost... Just misplaced, based on what was said in the statement. I imagine that he probably wasn't recording for fun, but most likely for archive purposes. I personally believe that the Bad Tour was Michael's time of great socio-ecological awakening, far more than what we saw beforehand. Ergo, he made his concerts to be a vehicle for raising awareness of world problems. How do you do this? You broadcast and release the concerts. However, the Bad Tour didn't really reflect this compared to the other tours. Indeed, this was meant to be Michael's last tour for a reason: at that point, he only saw touring as visiting the world and performing to the fans. But from visiting the world, he learned more about its problems, which spurred him to create the Heal the World Foundation, go on tour again and spread his message.

What I'm trying to say is that Michael always recorded for archival purposes; we all know that. But I don't think Bad Tour was a priority for him compared to other tours because it was during that tour that his eyes opened up to the extent of the world's problems, which undoubtedly affected his recorded and live work. As such, the Bad Tour didn't really show that message as greatly as the other tours did.