BAD25 - designated Discussion Thread

[T.N.A.]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Grande Prairie....But I'm from Ontario

I need to get to Vancouver someday

[youtube]4TcCQGcHjVA[/youtube]

 

[Victor]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS

MII, VHS, and S-VHS are distinct from above.

Recording capacity:
A VHS cassette holds a maximum of about 430 m (1,410 ft.) of tape at the lowest acceptable tape thickness, giving a maximum playing time of about 4 hours in an DF480 for NTSC and five hours in an E-300 for PAL at "standard play" (SP) quality. Other speeds include "long play" (LP) (Not all VCRs include this record mode), and "extended play" (EP) or "super long play" (SLP); For NTSC, LP and EP/SLP doubles and triples the recording time accordingly, but these speed reductions cause a slight reduction in video quality - from the normal 250 lines in SP, to 230 analog lines horizontal. Also, video recorded onto tapes at the lower speed often exhibit poor playback performance on recorders other than the one they were produced on. As a result, commercial pre-recorded tapes were almost always recorded in SP mode. In some cases, budget labels such as Video Treasures (both LP and EP), Starmaker (EP), Burbank Video (LP), Avid Home Entertainment (EP), GoodTimes Entertainment (LP), and even Disney (LP) and Paramount (EP) commonly used a slower speed to reduce the amount of tape required as a cost-saving method.

Video recording:
VHS tapes have approximately 3 MHz of video bandwidth and 400 kHz of chroma bandwidth, which is achieved at a relatively low tape speed by the use of helical scan recording of a frequency modulated luminance (black and white) signal, with a down-converted "color under" chroma (color) signal recorded directly at the baseband. Each helical track contains a single field ('even' or 'odd' field, equivalent to half a frame) encoded as an analog raster scan, similar to analog TV broadcasts. The horizontal resolution is 170 lines per scanline, and the vertical resolution (the number of scanlines) is the same as the respective analog TV standard (576 for PAL or 486 for NTSC). In modern-day digital terminology, VHS is roughly equivalent to 333x480 pixels luma and 40x480 chroma resolutions (333x480 pixels=159,840 pixels or 0.16MP (1/6 of a MegaPixel)).[18]

JVC would counter 1985's SuperBeta with VHS HQ, or High Quality. The frequency modulation of the VHS luminance signal is limited to 3 megahertz which makes higher resolutions impossible, but an HQ branded deck includes luminance noise reduction, chroma noise reduction, white clip extension, and improved sharpness circuitry. The effect was to increase the apparent horizontal resolution of a VHS recording from 240 to 250 analog (equivalent to 333 pixels from left-to-right, in digital terminology). The major VHS OEMs resisted HQ due to cost concerns, eventually resulting in JVC reducing the requirements for the HQ brand to white clip extension plus one other improvement.

In 1987 JVC introduced a new format called Super VHS which extended the bandwidth to over 5 megahertz, yielding 420 analog horizontal (560 pixels left-to-right).

Audio recording:
In the original VHS format, audio was recorded as baseband in a single linear track, at the upper edge of the tape, similar to how an audio compact cassette operates. The recorded frequency range was dependent on the linear tape speed. For the VHS SP mode, this resulted in a mediocre frequency response of roughly 100 Hz to 10 kHz. The signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) was an acceptable 42 dB. Both parameters degraded significantly with VHS's longer play modes, with EP frequency response peaking at 4 kHz.

Audio cannot be recorded on a VHS tape without recording a video signal, even in the audio dubbing mode. If there is no video signal to the VCR input, the VCR will record black as well as generate a control track while the audio is being recorded.

More expensive decks offered stereo audio recording and playback. Linear stereo, as it was called, fit two independent channels in the same space as the original mono audiotrack. While this approach preserved acceptable backward compatibility with monoaural audio heads, the splitting of the audio track degraded the signal's SNR to the point that audible tape hiss was objectionable at normal listening volume. To counteract tape hiss, decks applied Dolby B noise reduction for recording and playback. Dolby B dynamically boosts the mid-frequency band of the audio program on the recorded medium, improving its signal strength relative to the tape's background noise floor, then attenuates the mid-band during playback. Dolby B is not a transparent process, and Dolby-encoded program material will exhibit an unnatural mid-range emphasis when played on non-Dolby capable VCRs.

High-end consumer recorders took advantage of the linear nature of the audio track, as the audio track could be erased and recorded without disturbing the video portion of the recorded signal. Hence, "audio dubbing" and "video dubbing", where either the audio or video are re-recorded on tape (without disturbing the other), were supported features on prosumer linear video editing-decks. Without dubbing capability, an audio or video edit could not be done in-place on master cassette, and requires the editing output be captured to another tape, incurring generational loss.

Studio film releases began to emerge with linear stereo audiotracks in 1982. From that point onward nearly every home video releases by Hollywood featured a Dolby-encoded linear stereo audiotrack. However, linear stereo was never popular with equipment makers or consumers.

Variations:
Several improved versions of VHS exist, most notably Super-VHS (S-VHS), an analog video standard with improved video bandwidth. S-VHS improved the luminance resolution to 400 horizontal lines (versus 250 for VHS/Beta and 500 for DVD). The audio-system (both linear and AFM) is the same. S-VHS made little impact on the home market, but gained dominance in the camcorder market due to its superior picture quality.

The ADAT format provides the ability to record multitrack digital audio using S-VHS media. JVC also developed SVHS-ET technology for its Super-VHS camcorders and VCRs, which simply allows them to record Super VHS signals onto lower-priced VHS tapes, albeit with a slight blurring of the image. Nearly all Super-VHS camcorders and VCRs made today have SVHS-ET ability.
VHS-C / Super VHS-C
Main article: VHS-C

Another variant is VHS-Compact (VHS-C), originally developed for portable VCRs in 1982, but ultimately finding success in palm-sized camcorders. The longest tape available holds 60 minutes in SP mode and 180 minutes in EP mode. Since VHS-C tapes are based on the same magnetic tape as full size tapes, they can be played back in standard VHS players using a mechanical adapter, without the need of any kind of signal conversion. The magnetic tape on VHS-C cassettes is wound on one main spool and uses a gear wheel to advance the tape.

The adapter does not require a battery to function and is solely a mechanical adapter. It has an internal hub to engage with the VCR mechanism in the location of a normal full-size tape hub, driving the gearing on VHS-C cassette. Also when a VHS-C cassette is inserted into the adapter, a small swing-arm pulls the tape out of the miniature cassette to span the standard tape path distance between the guide rollers of a full-size tape. This allows the miniature cassette to use the same tape loading mechanism of the full-size tape.

Super VHS-C or S-VHS Compact was developed by JVC in 1987. S-VHS provided an improved luminance and chrominance quality, yet S-VHS recorders were compatible with VHS tapes.[20]

Sony Betamax was unable to shrink that form any further, so instead they developed Video8/Hi8 which was in direct competition with the VHS-C/S-VHS-C format throughout the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. Ultimately neither format "won" and both continue to be sold in the low-end market (examples: JVC SXM38 and Sony TRV138).
W-VHS / Digital-VHS (high-definition)
Main articles: W-VHS and D-VHS

W-VHS allowed recording of MUSE Hi-Vision analog high definition television, which was broadcast in Japan from 1989 until 2007. The other improved standard, called Digital-VHS (D-VHS), records digital high definition video onto a VHS form factor tape. D-VHS can record up to 4 hours of ATSC digital television in 720p or 1080i formats using the fastest record mode (equivalent to VHS-SP), and up to 40 hours of standard definition video at slower speeds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS

 

[Lucilla]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

But in the announcement it says that they have already restored it.

I guess the trailer we saw yesterday was a good indication after all, the quality is pretty bad. I must say that that is a bit disappointing to me. I find it difficult to believe that this would really be the best quality copy of this concert available, but it is what it is... The Wembley show is very special of course, but I would have rather paid triple the current price of the boxset to get a different concert in good quality (perhaps they could have added this legendary Wembley concert as a bonus). All this does make me wonder what footage the Estate has access and the rights to. I wish we could learn more about this.

Ah well, at least I am happy that we will finally get a chance to see the show we have all talked about for ages. And we know the audio quality will be high. Now I am particularly curious to learn more about cd 2 of the set.

Yes I can't help being concerned about the quality but what can we do, it's the best they could get I guess
But I'm also happy we get to see this show, can't wait to September!

 

[Eric]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Amazing! Quality is not very good but performance is great. Is that video zoomed?

Edit: Here is other video of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KlMxFCiH2k

It looks like that video clip had the top and bottom cut off in order to fit it properly into 16:9 format. I really hope they don't do that on the actual DVD because that means we would be losing some of the picture. Please keep it 4:3.

 

[T.N.A.]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Please give us quality like this, ok? ... :bow:
That's the least what Bad tour deserves..

Well, well.. Look who thinks LA '89 looks great now...

I've always said I've wanted LA '89 to be release and judging by the clips from The One, the quality is good and would make for a good DVD release. Oh but no... everybody was like: "release wembley! release wembley!"

Now you're getting Wembley from a VHS copy... :lol:


PS: I'm joking here btw, don't take anything I said too seriously.

But on a serious note... If they would've released LA '89 in the quality from The One DVD (maybe remastered) it would've been awesome.

 

[Hunterr]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

As for the DVD, the fact that it's Michael's personal copy does make it more special, even if there are better quality concerts out there. The idea that this was his personal VHS gives me the impression that he probably saw this show as one of his greatest live accomplishments.

lol no
It was prolly just random he supposedly had this kept. I'm sure he had several shows on tape, or someone else has them.

 

[Galactus123]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

That L.A. concert quality looks great. They should have still time to release it with the Wembley concert.

 

[Hunterr]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

TWYMMF and MITM were encore songs. For some concerts during the second leg, there were some order switches and songs removed such as "The Way You Make Me Feel" or "Man In The Mirror". He did not sing those songs on all concerts of the second leg.

Yes, but not often.

 

[Rudolf]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Well, well.. Look who thinks LA '89 looks great now...

I've always said I've wanted LA '89 to be release and judging by the clips from The One, the quality is good and would make for a good DVD release. Oh but no... everybody was like: "release wembley! release wembley!"

Now you're getting Wembley from a VHS copy... :lol:


PS: I'm joking here btw, don't take anything I said too seriously.

But on a serious note... If they would've released LA '89 in the quality from The One DVD (maybe remastered) it would've been awesome.

It's not about concert man. I still want Wembley. LA 89 was worse IMO. I'm referring to footage quality.

 

[T.N.A.]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

It's not about concert man. I still want Wembley. LA 89 was worse IMO. I'm referring to footage quality.

No, you think LA 89 was worse. That's not a well established fact. I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who would want to see/hear LA '89.

I'd actually like to know how many people here would rather get LA '89 in the quality of the pics you posted of them or this LQ Wembley concert from a VHS...

They have the audio from Wembley in great quality so they could've put that audio on the Live album and on the DVD/Blu-Ray release LA '89.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

I will be happy NO MATTER what it is that we get...man a full concert at Wembley is a cool thing....we may have to sacrafice a little clarity...but I am sure it will be wonderful either way....I bet they had done wonders with an old vhs copy....I cant wait ,,,I am ssooooo excited....woohooo!!!

 

[SkyWalk]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Could it be that this footage is still direct from the VHS and the Estate have not started re-mastering it yet?

 

[Bubs]

I will be happy NO MATTER what it is that we get...man a full concert at Wembley is a cool thing....we may have to sacrafice a little clarity...but I am sure it will be wonderful either way....I bet they had done wonders with an old vhs copy....I cant wait ,,,I am ssooooo excited....woohooo!!!

Me too :clapping:
It should be ok as their press release said: "The visuals have been restored and the audio quality enhanced so that fans can share in the excitement of that famous night"

It's like xmas has come early:woohoo: and there is more to come
"More details on this and other exciting projects relating to BAD’s 25th anniversary will be announced soon."

 

[Rudolf]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

No, you think LA 89 was worse. That's not a well established fact. I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who would want to see/hear LA '89.

I'd actually like to know how many people here would rather get LA '89 in the quality of the pics you posted of them or this LQ Wembley concert from a VHS...

They have the audio from Wembley in great quality so they could've put that audio on the Live album and on the DVD/Blu-Ray release LA '89.

Let's say his vocals weren't nearly as good as early and mid 1988.

It's similiar to Freddies voice in 1981 compared to 1986. In LA 89 case it's not as big difference but anyway. So I don't understand you, who so much cares about quality of voice specifically for Freddie but not as much for MJ. Wembley's better (but not in terms of footage quality )

 

[Rudolf]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Could it be that this footage is still direct from the VHS and the Estate have not started re-mastering it yet?

I don't understand what kind of VHS is it then cause even pure VHS looks ton better than this..

I just saw the daybreak. The quality is beyond any level of ''decent'' quality. It's not even VHS quality, it looks like shot on old cellphone. I REALLY hope that's not the real quality which we'll see on DVD..
I'd say it's unreleaseable. Maybe it's part of Estates plan to surprise us. Imagine that maybe theyre trying to fool us thinking all this and in the end it's like stunning quality DVD We can dream can't we ?

 

[dam2040]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

All of these Daybreak videos are not the FULL quality. It is broadcasted in HD, and when I watched it on TV, in HD, it was much better than these **** youtube videos.

 

[Rhilo]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

^I agree. And who knows, maybe LA 89 will be released at some point? Right now, this is how I feel...

 

[Galactus123]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Let's say his vocals weren't nearly as good as early and mid 1988.

Maybe but I still liked them. He sounded good.

 

[dam2040]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Let's not jump the gun with this. No one expected what we're getting and we might still be surprised.

 

[Galactus123]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

I don't understand what kind of VHS is it then cause even pure VHS looks ton better than this..

I just saw the daybreak. The quality is beyond any level of ''decent'' quality. It's not even VHS quality, it looks like shot on old cellphone. I REALLY hope that's not the real quality which we'll see on DVD..
I'd say it's unreleaseable. Maybe it's part of Estates plan to surprise us. Imagine that maybe theyre trying to fool us thinking all this and in the end it's like stunning quality DVD We can dream can't we ?

I'm sure that is not the real quality. Quality will not be the best but the concert is still gonna be awesome!

 

[T.N.A.]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Let's say his vocals weren't nearly as good as early and mid 1988.

Again, who cares? They have the audio from Wembley on multitracks so they can release THAT audio for the live album.

It's similiar to Freddies voice in 1981 compared to 1986. In LA 89 case it's not as big difference but anyway. So I don't understand you, who so much cares about quality of voice specifically for Freddie but not as much for MJ. Wembley's better (but not in terms of footage quality )

Yeah, cause if you compare Montreal '81 to Wembley '86 you'll hear a huge difference in Freddie's voice. The same happens if you compare Michael's voice from LA '89 to his voice from Seoul '96.

With that said, you'll hear a minimal (almost non existent) difference if you compare Freddie's voice from Buenos Aires '81 to his voice from Tokyo '82, just like how it's a minimal difference with Michael's Wembley '88 and LA '89.

So I don't really understand your logic...

You say the quality is bad for Wembley. Well, that's too bad cuz it might the the best quality Wembley concert you'll be getting anytime soon. But if you'd be offered LA '89 you'd complain about his voice in that concert (which is still great, but nontheless). Why? You can have the audio from Wembley (which you seem to love) on the Live album, and the video from LA '89 on the DVD (which is better than the Wembley quality).

So what's the argument then?

 

[lom kit]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

I sure the quality of the dvd will be same as the LA89 screens above.
It would be better then the Rome and Tokyo files we have, which are jumbotrones recordings too. Its not like sony uses the same equipment like amateurs like us. And the estate choses this date not just because of Royal attendens. if the quality was that bad they won't releases it. I'm sure.
Another reason is that there are the multitracks from that night, so the audio will be perfect as can be heard from the snippets.
VHS best choice is dvd. don't crack your head about it.

Why no blu-ray? it was mentioned few times, that it isn't clear if the estate has acces to the film recordings. We know Nocturne productions has them and they said its plenty of material. So where is the problem? Like always with every singer, there are copyright problems. I've mentioned many times Janet's RN tour and Madonnas BAT and Re-invent tours have the same problem and it isn't solved after alllll those years.
Michael has these vhs recordings of the video screens, but the film reels stay at the company that was filming. Like pioneer has the rights for Blond tour and don't gives green light for dvd release all these years.

Why Michael didn't wanted them back? cause it costs money. He never intended to do anything big with those recordings. I don't belive those rumours about LA89 and Munich 97 been prepared for releases and canceled. Sorry, no!
Only what he needed for Moowalker and APOM video. why Norcurne didn't release them or sell them? they need the permission of Michael.

In the end, its a circle that can't be broken that easy. Money can solve this, but well Estate/sony always try to go the easiest cheapest way.


It seams they heard us what we want this anniversary edition to be.

Hear us again. Pay the money needed for the film recordings and release it in theaters. You'll have your money back, plus more.


Its all speculation i doing, but its what many of us assume. And the example of the same problems regarding other artist have, is what we can assume it is.

the teaser is the same video that was shown on MTV VMA 90 and even then it was crapy quality. so don't judge by that.

 

[Rudolf]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Again, who cares? They have the audio from Wembley on multitracks so they can release THAT audio for the live album.



Yeah, cause if you compare Montreal '81 to Wembley '86 you'll hear a huge difference in Freddie's voice. The same happens if you compare Michael's voice from LA '89 to his voice from Seoul '96.

With that said, you'll hear a minimal (almost non existent) difference if you compare Freddie's voice from Montreal '81 to his voice from Tokyo '82, just like how it's a minimal difference with Michael's Wembley '88 and LA '89.

So I don't really understand your logic...

You say the quality is bad for Wembley. Well, that's too bad cuz it might the the best quality Wembley concert you'll be getting anytime soon. But if you'd be offered LA '89 you'd complain about his voice in that concert (which is still great, but nontheless). Why? You can have the audio from Wembley (which you seem to love) on the Live album, and the video from LA '89 on the DVD (which is better than the Wembley quality).

So what's the argument then?

But why you love LA so much apart from good quality snippets in The One DVD? I'd choose MSG over it any time if I had to choose USA show.
Oh you LA lovers..

 

[SoCav]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

All of these Daybreak videos are not the FULL quality. It is broadcasted in HD, and when I watched it on TV, in HD, it was much better than these **** youtube videos.

Of course the YT quality is not great, but as IMWhizzle already mentioned, the footage of the presenter still looks relatively good, whereas the quality of the Wembley footage looks rather bad.

Nevertheless, good to hear from someone who actually saw it on tv that the quality is not as bad as it seemed based on the YT clip.

I'd say it's unreleaseable. Maybe it's part of Estates plan to surprise us. Imagine that maybe theyre trying to fool us thinking all this and in the end it's like stunning quality DVD We can dream can't we ?

Lol, not to drag that into it, but this sounds like the theories born out of desperation that were floating around after Breaking News was streamed ("maybe it is all a PR stunt!").

Let's not jump the gun with this. No one expected what we're getting and we might still be surprised.

True. Hope so!

 

[T.N.A.]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

But why you love LA so much apart from good quality snippets in The One DVD? I'd choose MSG over it any time if I had to choose USA show.

Did you even bother reading my post?

Let me explain it in a simple way so you can understand...

According to you:

Wembley - bad video quality, "good voice"
LA - good video quality, "bad voice"

What I said:

LA '89 on DVD and Wembley '88 on CD. That way you have... good video quality(DVD) + "good voice"(CD)

Oh you LA lovers..

Oh you Wembley lovers..

 

[lom kit]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

If you look at the pro recordings from digital channels we have of that
DD NY, RWY HBH APOM Kansas, they look pretty good, especialy DD NY. and these are only from promotinal tapes for tv stations.
Bad london was that live transnmition for MTV that all channels have in their archives. and i'm sure is was taken from YT to make that crappy teaser. i'm sure the reast of the footage in that 30sec can be found also.

In day of YT many tv stations just take material from YT even without to mention it most of the time. its the easiest way.

 

[Rudolf]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Did you even bother reading my post?

Let me explain it in a simple way so you can understand...

According to you:

Wembley - bad video quality, "good voice"
LA - good video quality, "bad voice"

What I said:

LA '89 on DVD and Wembley '88 on CD. That way you have... good video quality(DVD) + "good voice"(CD)



Oh you Wembley lovers..

Lol no I'm not only Wembley lover. Though Wembley is amazing.

Here I'll give a list what shows would I want released -

Kansas first nigh
MSG March 3 & 5
Rome
Rotterdam June 5
Wembley July 16
Milton Keynes
Liverpool
LA 89

 

[LastTear]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

Did you even bother reading my post?

Let me explain it in a simple way so you can understand...

According to you:

Wembley - bad video quality, "good voice"
LA - good video quality, "bad voice"

What I said:

LA '89 on DVD and Wembley '88 on CD. That way you have... good video quality(DVD) + "good voice"(CD)



Oh you Wembley lovers..

I think you are missing the point of the historical value of Wembley (16th). The Royal family do not just turn out for any old concert, this was a huge deal, in fact I can only remember this tour, live aid (I think) and concerts laid on for the royals. Let the rest of the world be reminded of the Michael we all know.

 

[Rudolf]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

If you look at the pro recordings from digital channels we have of that
DD NY, RWY HBH APOM Kansas, they look pretty good, especialy DD NY. and these are only from promotinal tapes for tv stations.
Bad london was that live transnmition for MTV that all channels have in their archives. and i'm sure is was taken from YT to make that crappy teaser. i'm sure the reast of the footage in that 30sec can be found also.

In day of YT many tv stations just take material from YT even without to mention it most of the time. its the easiest way.

VMA -
(obviously better quality. but it looks slightly different. perhaps July 15. dunno)



Teaser -

 

[SoCav]

Re: Michael Jackson BAD25 - The Announcement We Have All Been Waiting For

I think you are missing the point of the historical value of Wembley (16th). The Royal family do not just turn out for any old concert, this was a huge deal, in fact I can only remember this tour, live aid (I think) and concerts laid on for the royals. Let the rest of the world be reminded of the Michael we all know.

But I want the world to be reminded of crisp, crystal clear Mike, not blurry, grainy Mike.



I see your point of course about the historical significance of the show, but if you had to choose between watching Michael in great quality or Michael in crappy quality knowing that Princess Diana was watching the same show, what would you go for?