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Conrad Murray : Michael Broke the Syringe / Key Witnesses Are Undermining Me!

Even if propofol would be effective after being drunk, how fast would the effect come?

Would Michael be able to drink the WHOLE of the juice with the whole of propofol and lidocaine in it? How much is enough? Wouldn't he be kicked off, wouldn't he drop the bottle and spill the juice all over the place? Or, could he "decide" to stop drinking, put the bottle nicely back on the table? :crazy:

The autopsy report says "several empty juice bottles" - ok so they were indeed empty?
 
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They are trying to show that Michael took the syringe and seperated it ('broke' it by taking the needle off the syringe) before giving himself an IV bolus of the propofol in the syring via the IV cannula. The syringe attaches to the IV cannula port directly and one doesn't need the needle bit to administer the IV bolus, hence 'breaking' the needle.

Even if they find Michael's fingerprints on the syringe, who's to say that Murray didn't plant it? We all know he had the time to clear up and hide evidence. What's to prove that he didn't plant the fingerprints using Michael's hand before calling for help.
 
2- The defence theory is that the victim removed the needle from the syringe so as to pour its content in the bottle of juice and drink it. BUT Michael did not die of the tenth of a miligram of propofol detected in his stomach, according to the Chief Medical Coroner, Christopher Rogers, but of higher concentration levels in the rest of the system. (Rogers provided logical medical explanations for the presence of that 0.13mg of propofol in the 70ml of gastric content in the preliminary hearing).
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exactly, that's what they are trying to prove now. the paramedics already testified that Murray offered them a hypomedric 24 gauge (needle) to use and they did use . It was the one which was found under MJ's bed . They found the syringe with the plunger on the nightstand, they can't claim MJ used this one to inject himself nor the one which was already inserted into the port injection and had FLUMAZENIL in it , you gave him flumazenil when you saw him in distress so you was the one who used that syringe.

They are going with the theory you mentioned above. still Falgan is insisting on retesting the IV system so again till this minute they don't know what kind of strategy they will use , every single theory is proven to be medically impossible.

now they want to subpoena Tohme and Phillips , I told you two days ago they are busy reading the conspiracy section .



They are trying to show that Michael took the syringe and seperated it ('broke' it by taking the needle off the syringe) before giving himself an IV bolus of the propofol in the syring via the IV cannula. The syringe attaches to the IV cannula port directly and one doesn't need the needle bit to administer the IV bolus, hence 'breaking' the needle
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no, there was already a syringe inserted into the injection port , the syringe that killed MJ and they traced flumazenil in it , so it was used by Murray.
 
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So the defense wants us to consider that Michael woke up from his anesthetically induced sleep, looked around and didn't see his highly paid doctor, was so desparate that he then looked around for a syringe which he somehow knew was 'loaded' with propofol and lidocaine which he had the knowledge to detach the needle from, squirt the contents into his juice and drink it. All in 2 minutes. AND he knew that this would be effective. Because why? There's no research stating so, even if there were such research existing, how would he know about it? So he just took a chance and chugged propofol? This is laughable.
 
Why doesn't this guy understand, even 'though the story he tells is true, he is still responsible of this death... You, as a doctor, have to monitor your patient or can't leave him alone, and you're responsible of whatever he does when he's on drugs you've given to him !
 
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I know. He is a doctor and he takes no responsibility at all. Blame everyone including Michael who trusted him with his life. It's all frustrating to watch all of this.
 
cinzia said:
So the defense wants us to consider that Michael woke up from his anesthetically induced sleep, looked around and didn't see his highly paid doctor, was so desparate that he then looked around for a syringe which he somehow knew was 'loaded' with propofol and lidocaine which he had the knowledge to detach the needle from, squirt the contents into his juice and drink it. All in 2 minutes. AND he knew that this would be effective. Because why? There's no research stating so, even if there were such research existing, how would he know about it? So he just took a chance and chugged propofol? This is laughable.
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Yup...Not to mention, the defense trying to imply that he awoke from this propofol induced sleep unaffected and able to function normally. When most people awake from such a thing and are still drowsy, among other things for up to an hour or more.
 
Re: Conrad Murray : Michael Broke the Syringe

Big Apple2 said:
What does any of this have to do with what Murray did to Michael on the morning of June 25th?

AEG's expectations about Michael's rehearsal schedule. What about MURRAY'S expectations about Michael's rehearsal schedule. I mean, wasn't it Murray who got in Kenny Ortega's face regarding Michael going home sick ONE DAY.

And I can answer this question: AEG's involvement with SELECTING Murray as Michael's doctor does not exist, since Murray was already Michael's doctor way before AEG came on board. Conrad Murray should be able to answer that question for his defense team.
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Notice they are going after AEG because they know that Katherine and company are going after them. Now they will muddy the waters by hinting that AEG had something to do with the death. I hope in an indirect way Katherine's case will not help Murray's case. Now Murray's new defense is that Kline and AEG are involved. What next!!!!!!!!!
 
How can saying that AEG was involved take away from what Murray did? It doesn't.
 
it has been almost two years I am sure they know who's prints are on what and who's prints are not
 
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I feel like quite a bad fan because I've not been on top of things lately but this is honestly so stressing and intense for me. I'll be right back onto things when the trial starts though :(
 
StacyJ said:
Didn't the EMTs say that Murray broke the syringe when he pulled out the needle? And why didn't Murray call Dr Klein to find out what dermatological treatments he was giving Michael? I said all along why didn't Murray get past medical records from MJ's doctors?
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Ok first of all wtf??? Never ever uses a doctor strong medicine with a patient without medical records... EVER!!!!!!! This alone is a crime in medicine..
Its so pissing me off that all these things happen there, while i know it would never happen here in europe in some countrys in the west. If he was stil living in let say ireland he may be alive because no doctor ever would do this!!!!!!!! Pisses me off so much..
Whats next a child becomes a doctor? lol..

daisy said:
Even if propofol would be effective after being drunk, how fast would the effect come?

Would Michael be able to drink the WHOLE of the juice with the whole of propofol and lidocaine in it? How much is enough? Wouldn't he be kicked off, wouldn't he drop the bottle and spill the juice all over the place? Or, could he "decide" to stop drinking, put the bottle nicely back on the table? :crazy:

The autopsy report says "several empty juice bottles" - ok so they were indeed empty?
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No with a few drops he would be more sleepy and then all out. It works really fast.

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
Yup...Not to mention, the defense trying to imply that he awoke from this propofol induced sleep unaffected and able to function normally. When most people awake from such a thing and are still drowsy, among other things for up to an hour or more.
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Of you weak up your fussy for at least 15 til 30 min i know had it last week.. So thats impossible.. to find a needle *which he is scared of* and did it himself, even because he was under other meds like the benzos.

I hope they make him suffer legaly so much and! Make a bill*?) around it for all other doctors that this never ever happen again! that the punishment will be much higher, so they learn with murray as example.
Also doctors who just want to make money and dont think of the health of a patient. I mean 50 some demerol injections in 3 months???????? HOROR
 
Ingelief said:
No with a few drops he would be more sleepy and then all out. It works really fast.
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So Michael would not be able to put the (empty) bottle back on the table. In fact he would not be able to drink the whole of it.
Instead, he would drop the bottle with juice and juice would spill all over the bed and sheets and then on the floor. And that's how Murray would find Michael.

On the other hand, if propofol and lidocaine were dissolved in this juice, how much would he need to drink and at what point would he loose consciousness. Or decide not to drink the rest of it. Doesn't make sense.
 
Ingelief said:
Ok first of all wtf??? Never ever uses a doctor strong medicine with a patient without medical records... EVER!!!!!!! This alone is a crime in medicine..
Its so pissing me off that all these things happen there, while i know it would never happen here in europe in some countrys in the west. If he was stil living in let say ireland he may be alive because no doctor ever would do this!!!!!!!! Pisses me off so much..
Whats next a child becomes a doctor? lol..



No with a few drops he would be more sleepy and then all out. It works really fast.



Of you weak up your fussy for at least 15 til 30 min i know had it last week.. So thats impossible.. to find a needle *which he is scared of* and did it himself, even because he was under other meds like the benzos.

I hope they make him suffer legaly so much and! Make a bill*?) around it for all other doctors that this never ever happen again! that the punishment will be much higher, so they learn with murray as example.
Also doctors who just want to make money and dont think of the health of a patient. I mean 50 some demerol injections in 3 months???????? HOROR
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Well, I've had 15 years of on and off experience with European medicine and I must respectfully disagree with this (bolded part). My experience with accountability and record keeping in 3 EU countries compel me to say this. Also, as with just about anything, there are good and bad professionals. For the right sum of money there will always be a doctor willing to be 'bought'. It doesn't matter which country he or she is in.
This doesn't make it right or ethical or desirable but it is a truth which must be faced.
Murray, as we all surely realize by now, was not acting in accordance with any established standards of care or approved medical protocols or even good old ordinary common sense. Had he been, we wouldn't be having these discussions.

As for the idea that oral propofol could make him sleepy, there just isn't any research that I've yet found that has been done on humans, much less any that says how much would be needed to put a person under or for how long.
But if you want to sedate a mouse...the research is there. Thus I don't see how you can say how much propofol orally would be needed to induce sleep or unconsciousness. But if there is a reference, I would appreciate the link.
 
dear cinzia maybe if you are having doctors in different countrys it would be more diffecult, but in 1 country... always have the medical records first before even discribe heavy drugs.. maybe not asprins but have drugs certain

also i dont know if the drink would be the same but i know for a fact that propofol does work fast and i believe personnaly but thats my believe if he would drink it, his stomach would not except en through it out... but thats not a fact thats my oppinion..

but there most anest. who will testify that he could not have done it himself because of many more reasons..
 
ppl googled drinking it and it said it would do nothing more than make u throw up
 
Ingelief said:
dear cinzia maybe if you are having doctors in different countrys it would be more diffecult, but in 1 country... always have the medical records first before even discribe heavy drugs.. maybe not asprins but have drugs certain

also i dont know if the drink would be the same but i know for a fact that propofol does work fast and i believe personnaly but thats my believe if he would drink it, his stomach would not except en through it out... but thats not a fact thats my oppinion..

but there most anest. who will testify that he could not have done it himself because of many more reasons..
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Oh Ingelief, I wish I could be as positive as you are. But the reality is often so far from the ideal. But that's a discussion for another place, not here.

Bottom line: I will never believe that Michael would have or could have done it to himself. And I do believe all of these shenanigans from murray's camp are to maneuver or manipulate the situation for their ulitmate benefit. Sometimes I get the feeling this is becoming one big chess game. I've said it before, for what it's worth, maybe they are trying to set things up to win it on appeal. You know, a technicality. I was reading the other day briefly about the Casey Anthony trial and how that judge has only ever had 1/2 of one judgement overturned on appeal in I don't know how many years of judging. I hope Pastor has a good record in this area!
 
I haven't been following anything in this case, so can someone enlighten me a bit? Where are we at now, what's the evidence, what are facts?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
ppl googled drinking it and it said it would do nothing more than make u throw up
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yep but it was for a few drops. I personally do not think anyone examined drinking a bottle of it - not that it makes any difference

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Well, to start with, it would taste nasty. It has a smell that's reminiscent of industrial chemicals, and it's oily. Yuk. I think that ingestion of a significant amount of it would cause vomiting.

It is not supposed to be pharmacologically active when taken orally (as compared to fospropofol, which is). I don't know anyone who has tried it. We don't use orally administered drugs in anesthesia because the absorption is unpredictable, it takes too long to get an effect, it's not titratable, and we are very particular about keeping stomachs empty, so as to avoid aspiration.

I doubt oral administration of propofol has been studied, as that is not how it is meant to be used. (The prescribing literature states that the effects are unknown, and that is in relation to its excretion in breast milk and possible effect on nursing infants.)

In contrast, we know a lot about injecting it. A little bit will get you drowsy. A little bit more will cause you to lose consciousness. A little bit more than that will cause you to stop breathing. How much those bits are varies from person to person. I've given propofol to many, many thousands of patients, and sometimes I get surprised by how it affects someone. However, I have the equipment and skills to take care of any problems that arise.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110110154037AAquPQ8

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Drink? nothing

Here's what happens. It gets absorbed into the portal circulation, goes straight to the liver, is metabolized, makes its way to the kidney and is excreted.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100722180550AAP1Kw2
 
seeing as ther was so little dip in the stomach compaired with the blood etc whats the excuse for where that came from? the tooth fairy?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
seeing as ther was so little dip in the stomach compaired with the blood etc whats the excuse for where that came from? the tooth fairy?
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Rogers, the Chief Medical Coroner, provided three logical medical explanations in the preliminary hearing for the presence of that small amount in the stomach, as well as for the presence of lidocaine. He also said that absorption would have been slow, but the defence said it would have been fast.

There's no research on humans, but even if the absorption were fast how would the defence explain that the concentration levels were bigger in the rest than in the stomach? (They will have to answer the same question they asked Rogers when they asked about the other way round - from blood to stomach, and in relation to ratio between prop and lidocaine, which Rogers explained it).
 
There's no research on humans, but even if the absorption were fast how would the defence explain that the concentration levels were bigger in the rest than in the stomach?
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exactly
 
"Conrad Murray is a liar and a murderer."
Just the facts, Mame.
 
Why aren't the defense mentioning what Murray is actually charged with? Murray is charged with negligence and not providing the proper standard of care. The defense are going in circles but they are not defending Murray against the actual charge.
 
From an article in the Poison Review from February 13, 2010,

...The toxicology tests determined the following:

Propofol: Heart blood – 3.2 mcg/ml; Hospital blood – 4.1 mcg/ml; Femoral blood – 2.6 mcg/ml

Lidocaine: Heart blood - 0.68 mcg/ml; Hospital blood – 0.5 mcg/ml; Femoral blood – 0.34 mcg/ml

Lorazepam: Heart blood – 0.162 mcg/ml

Diazepam and midazolam were present in trivial quantities.

Baselt’s textbook The Disposition of Toxic Drugs and Chemicals in Man (7th edition) mentions that in 5 fatal cases of acute propofol poisoning, postmortem blood propofol levels ranged from 0.5 – 5.3 mcg/ml. Dr. Selma Calmes, the anesthesiology consultant, concluded that “The levels of propofol found on toxicology exam are similar to those found during general anesthesia for major surgery (intra-abdominal) with propofol infusions, after a bolus induction”.

Note that the level of heart blood propofol at autopsy was higher than that found in the femoral blood. This suggests that propofol undergoes the process of postmortem redistribution. In this phenomenon, after death a drug diffuses out of tissues and into the blood pool, producing a result somewhat higher than the actual level at the moment of death. This effect is more marked in blood obtained from central locations (heart, central vessels) compared to blood drawn from peripheral vessels such as the femoral vein. It is interesting to note that in in this case, the propofol level measured on samples of the hospital blood was higher than either postmortem level. This may be because any intravenous fluid administered to Mr. Jackson during resuscitation in the emergency department diluted the concentration of the drug....

Propofol was found at autopsy in Michael Jackson’s stomach contents in a very small concentration — less than 1:30 of the concentration in the blood. This is most likely because, after death, the drug diffused out of the circulatory system and into the stomach.
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http://www.thepoisonreview.com/2010/02/13/michael-jackson-toxicology-report-released/

Seems as he is implying that the propofol levels may actually have been higher than what the results show. ??


StacyJ:
Why aren't the defense mentioning what Murray is actually charged with? Murray is charged with negligence and not providing the proper standard of care. The defense are going in circles but they are not defending Murray against the actual charge.
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LOL!! We know why....it's because they CAN'T! There is no defense! This is all they can do, isn't it, try and deflect attention from murray's sorry behavior.
 
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