Conrad Murray : Michael Broke the Syringe / Key Witnesses Are Undermining Me!

[Soundmind]

First, MJ's fingerprints are not on the syringe , who the hell said they were found on that syringe ?

second , even if they were and THEY ARE NOT , medically it is impossible for MJ to have injected himself .

Third Murray used that syringe to induce sleep that day , so his fingerprint would be on it .

Last the syringe was not even found under the bed as the media reporters are claiming , it was a needle that Murray gave to the paramedics to use . the syringe was found on the nightstand .


Why do you guys disappear for months and then when anything remotely related to "suicide" or "overdose" is mentioned you surface suddenly to ruin these threads . You are discussing things that have been already discussed and REFUTED medically tens of times

 

[xthunderx2]

First, MJ's fingerprints are not on the syringe , who the hell said they were found on that syringe ?

second , even if they were and THEY ARE NOT , medically it is impossible for MJ to have injected himself .

Third Murray used that syringe to induce sleep that day , so his fingerprint would be on it .

Last the syringe was not even found under the bed as the media reporters are claiming , it was a needle that Murray gave to the paramedics to use . the syringe was found on the nightstand .


Why do you guys disappear for months and then when anything remotely related to "suicide" or "overdose" is mentioned you surface suddenly to ruin these threads . You are discussing things that have been already discussed and REFUTED medically tens of times

well I gotta agree with this whole post..well said...:clapping::clapping:thank you.

 

[loveforever]

The defence are desperated to paint Michael as some kind of diehard propofol addict. what a idiot. if Michael was addict to propofol, all he needed should be propofol, but why there were other insomnia related prescription pills in his house, why there were other anaesthetic Murray administrated in his system, why Murray told police other days he didn't give Michael propofol and successfully helped him sleep. that doesn't make any sense. All the evidence indicated Michael just wanted to manage his insomnia, he hired the doctor he trusted to help him get some sleep so he could work on the next day. I am just so tried of those nonsense. what's next?

 

[smoothlugar]

DA will not be taken by surprise by the defence this time at the trial.

I'm sure they will be wiser this time than in the preliminary. Hope they have the initiative and can debunk all speculation from defence. (So far they have presented 3 theories with NO EVIDENCE to support their client ...).

it was a needle that Murray gave to the paramedics to use

We cannot be sure whether the needle on the floor was the same Murray offered the paramedics. There were more needles in the bedroom:

DDA Q: Recovered an open box of disposable hypodermic needles?

Fleak: Yes. It was on the two tables as well.

 

[Soundmind]

so what? so what if it was not the same needle? what difference it would make? Nothing really

 

[smoothlugar]

Simply additional information to that sentence.

it was a needle that Murray gave to the paramedics

The more precise, the better.

Besides what it wouldn't make any difference was whether the needle "were the one offered by Murray". IMO that would be irrelevant. What matters is the content of the syringe on the bedtable. What Murray did with it and how the defence wants now to twist things.

 

[Soundmind]

What Murray did with it

because I firmly believe he used to induce sleep using propofol after he hung the 1000mg vial on the IV stand for MJ ONLY to see and because I believe after sleep was induce he would switch to the saline IV and start maintaining sleep using the benzos , that syringe was the one he used to induce sleep that day , it had lidocaine and propofol traces . And the amount fits perfectly with the urine concentrations in both the bladder and the bottle.

That's why they will never ever find MJ's fingerprints on it , not that it would really make any difference.

By the way we no longer can read the transcripts , could anyone check to see whether they are asking for the finger prints on the syringe , the needle or both?

 

[smoothlugar]

There are problems with the transcriptions for the time being. They say they will be soon sorted out.

 

[smoothlugar]

I'd rather not speculate about that 100ml vial hidden by Murray until the prosecutors provide more explanations.

What matters is the evidence: how much propofol remained in the 100ml vial? In the preliminary, the investigator described it as "open" though didn't specify its remaining content. However, in the Search Warrant in the inventory of medical evidences it was labelled as "empty").

 

[smoothlugar]

that syringe was the one he used to induce sleep that day , it had lidocaine and propofol traces . And the amount fits perfectly with the urine concentrations in both the bladder and the bottle.

You mean those syringes (the one on the bedside and the one in the injection port, don't you?


I suppose Murray that day would use at least more than one induction dosage so as to explain for the u. bottle. We will have to wait till the trial and see if prosecutors advance probable amounts given by Murray. So far it was only the defence the one who suggested amounts, but none of the parts referred to the vial Murray tried to hide in terms of amounts already absent in the vial (that btw may not be present in bladder ...).

 

[Dutchie]

The way you expressed yourself strongly suggested that he's like this junkie who would doctor shop. Sorry for taking this the wrong way, but it's how it looked. It was not I who suggested it, I am understanding Michael more than I'd care to prove ... I am more than aware of propofol not being for use at home or for insomnia. Yet I don't have to repeat that and go on this "He was naive too" route.

If you feel that way then I am sorry. I don't have to prove myself to anyone nor explain how I feel towards Michael and his life. I do not see Michael as a junkie who was addicted to all kinds of drugs nor do I see him as a junkie who would do anything to get a fix.

We all believe what we want to (because after all none of us will know for sure why Michael did certain things certain ways). I would never say Michael is a junkie, however I do believe he doctor shopped IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE because someone put the idea in his head that propofol was going to help him sleep, and because he was simply in a position to, and because I am certain there must have been doctors who told him 'no' since propofol is not to be used outside of an operating room for purposes other than what it's intended for.

Not sleeping can drive you absolutely nuts and at some point you'll do anything to get some sleep. I believe that in Michael's case, "anything" could have meant using propofol because he sincerely thought it would help him sleep because he had used it before.

I know you probably won't agree, I don't know if it's because you think Michael could never do anything wrong in your eyes but this is my view and my opinion.

The nerve of some (spiteful) 'I love tab info' folk. Hopeless for real, lol.

*next*

Seriously, why the attitude?

 

[cinzia]

I think we can all agree that murray is a liar so anything he says is tainted. I think it is ridiculous to even start talking about IF he is innocent when a blind person can see that he committed acts of gross negligence which led to Michael's death.

We all believe what we want to (because after all none of us will know for sure why Michael did certain things certain ways). I would never say Michael is a junkie, however I do believe he doctor shopped IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE because someone put the idea in his head that propofol was going to help him sleep, and because he was simply in a position to, and because I am certain there must have been doctors who told him 'no' since propofol is not to be used outside of an operating room for purposes other than what it's intended for.

Isn't this just a bit Off Topic? Why would you bring up this kind of an issue here? What purpose does it serve? But if you are going to do it, then where is your evidence for why you feel this way. And why are you so 'certain' about other doctors? None of can be certain about the intimate details of Michael's life.

This case is about the negligent actions of a credentialled, experienced physician which led to the death of his patient.

Whether it was Michael's idea or murray's idea to use propofol doesn't change this.

 

[Dutchie]

Isn't this just a bit Off Topic? Why would you bring up this kind of an issue here? What purpose does it serve? But if you are going to do it, then where is your evidence for why you feel this way. And why are you so 'certain' about other doctors? None of can be certain about the intimate details of Michael's life. .

.....because my post was questioned and I felt attacked, so naturally I explain my point of view.

You ask why I am so certain, and you ask for evidence when I have clearly stated that what I post is MY OPINION, and MY VIEW. So how are you gonna ask me for evidence?

I agree that it doesn't matter whose idea it was to use the propofol; it shouldn't have been there and Michael shouldn't have been killed with it.

 

[cinzia]

.....because my post was questioned and I felt attacked, so naturally I explain my point of view.

Okay, fair enough. Didn't realize it was a 'self defense' post

You ask why I am so certain, and you ask for evidence when I have clearly stated that what I post is MY OPINION, and MY VIEW. So how are you gonna ask me for evidence?

Because you said this:

because I am certain there must have been doctors who told him 'no' since propofol is not to be used outside of an operating room for purposes other than what it's intended for.

which implies something indisputable and raises it above opinion to fact. So I was wondering how you could be so certain.

 

[ginvid]

Can we just stop from all of the squabbling. If you need to explain your point of view, please feel free to PM one another. I don't want the thread derailed and I know many of us don't want to read over arguing to get to posts that examoine what the thread is actually about.

According to the title of this thread, it does not matter
1. If MJ doctor shopped
2. If propofol is hard to get
3. Whether ir should have been used at home
4. Whether he used it in the 90's
5. Your personal assertments on whether or not MJ was aware of daners of propofol.

This thread is about MJ's figerprints being on the needle, if this is possible, and what eveidence suggests this is possible or disproves this.

I know this is a tough time, but if the posts in this thread can reflect the topic at hand, it would be better. Please.

Thank you.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Why do you guys disappear for months and then when anything remotely related to "suicide" or "overdose" is mentioned you surface suddenly to ruin these threads . You are discussing things that have been already discussed and REFUTED medically tens of times

well one of the posters mentioned is nothing more than a troll who salways defends murray why mods allow such ppl to be on this board i dont know.

re what dutchie is saying. we know mj asked metzger and supposedly lee (although the claim from lee doesnt fit as murray was already buying s***loads of the stuff at that point. i guess ppl take offence with the word dr shopping. it has very high conitations. but id hardly say asking a couple of drs that he had been treated by for a long time (especially metzger) would be classed as dr shopping. id also enquire about the prescriptions written illegally under fasle names comment aswell. this was investigated by the DEA (i believe) and there was no evidence to support it at all. that crap was created by the media implying he was using jrs name and the kai etc when the document releated to that was about ppl who were around and close to mj on that day and nothing else. it was then spun by the media.this aint janet were infractions were made against her drs for writing illegal presciptions

 

[Dutchie]

Jesus Christ. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to enter a discussion on this board. I feel attacked, and I'm really offended by some of you.

That's all I'm going to say. By all means, continue the discussion without my 'squabbling'.

 

[cinzia]

@ ginvid You are right. My apologies.

 

[twinklEE]

well one of the posters mentioned is nothing more than a troll who salways defends murray why mods allow such ppl to be on this board i dont know.

re what dutchie is saying. we know mj asked metzger and supposedly lee (although the claim from lee doesnt fit as murray was already buying s***loads of the stuff at that point. i guess ppl take offence with the word dr shopping. it has very high conitations. but id hardly say asking a couple of drs that he had been treated by for a long time (especially metzger) would be classed as dr shopping. id also enquire about the prescriptions written illegally under fasle names comment aswell. this was investigated by the DEA (i believe) and there was no evidence to support it at all. that crap was created by the media implying he was using jrs name and the kai etc when the document releated to that was about ppl who were around and close to mj on that day and nothing else. it was then spun by the media.this aint janet were infractions were made against her drs for writing illegal presciptions

so true

 

[Alma]

I know you probably won't agree, I don't know if it's because you think Michael could never do anything wrong in your eyes but this is my view and my opinion.

No, I am not, speculation on our part; just not adding to an excess of negativity he gets from the media and many people, that's all. First, you're saying I'm thinking he was an idiot (though I never suggested that), now that I'm worshiping him. .. 'Can do no wrong'? See this is when all discussion is bound to fail, because of almost hazardous things like that get thrown in because of a bruised ego. In light of a trial that's bound to make a joke of Michael's character, and it is obvious the joke's begun.. some are bound to feel that it's enough. He died because of the incompetence of his doctor, and that's enough. It's a difficult time for many, too.

Seriously, why the attitude?

Sorry for the confusion, but I was not addressing you with that line, it was someone else.

 

[Alma]

re what dutchie is saying. we know mj asked metzger and supposedly lee (although the claim from lee doesnt fit as murray was already buying s***loads of the stuff at that point. i guess ppl take offence with the word dr shopping. it has very high conitations. but id hardly say asking a couple of drs that he had been treated by for a long time (especially metzger) would be classed as dr shopping. id also enquire about the prescriptions written illegally under fasle names comment aswell. this was investigated by the DEA (i believe) and there was no evidence to support it at all. that crap was created by the media implying he was using jrs name and the kai etc when the document releated to that was about ppl who were around and close to mj on that day and nothing else. it was then spun by the media.this aint janet were infractions were made against her drs for writing illegal presciptions

Thanks. ..

 

[smoothlugar]

id also enquire about the prescriptions

when the document releated to that was about ppl who were around and close to mj on that day and nothing else

The explanation from Metzger in 2000 about prescriptions for Janet under another name was privacy (it was diuretics to help dieting).

In the "Search Warrant" the prescriptions related to MJ and under other names are mentioned, nothing strange, they were for the other medicines found (antibiotics by Lee and similar, already known), again, same issue of privacy.

 

[Sue1]

I know. He is a doctor and he takes no responsibility at all. Blame everyone including Michael who trusted him with his life. It's all frustrating to watch all of this.

Absolutely, it's sickening! Devoid of care, compassion, mercy - everything that, ironically a doctor SHOULD BE! And mostly arrogant and sociopathic enough to be devoid of all responsibility too!

 

[Ingelief]

ppl googled drinking it and it said it would do nothing more than make u throw up

i saw that but its still possible if thats later than a minute some is in his system and would be sleepy also

 

[Ingelief]

can we all agree that we love michael and that is why this is so heated because of how much it mean to us. but i hope we can still be respectfull thats what michael want us to be

Murrays team is just playing the world im curius what there saying in court

 

[Alma]

The explanation from Metzger in 2000 about prescriptions for Janet under another name was privacy (it was diuretics to help dieting).

In the "Search Warrant" the prescriptions related to MJ and under other names are mentioned, nothing strange, they were for the other medicines found (antibiotics by Lee and similar, already known), again, same issue of privacy.

Yes, was wanting say that too, thanks. ..

 

[noirnoar]

Even if propofol would be effective after being drunk, how fast would the effect come?
Would Michael be able to drink the WHOLE of the juice with the whole of propofol and lidocaine in it?

Michael Jackson taking propofol and lidocaine orally is NOT supported by autopsy, since the traces are not found in oral organs: teeth, tongue, lips, mouth, gums, palate, glands, uvula, esophagus...

Murray's team are full of crap, never heard so much non-sense from them. Drinking propofol was the most laughable one. Autopsy does not support their claim/theory, period.

No matter what Murray's defends are claiming, I think their strategy is to put doubt on anything relating to the case, regardless is true or false.

 

[Justthefacts]

And they do check that stuff at autopsy

 

[Soundmind]

And they do check that stuff at autopsy

can you be sure? I serioulsy can't . Fleak already said she did not even size the juice bottles found there, did not even collect them . So what if he was poisoned ? what would they have done ?

You know what we went crazy over Beachlover's assumption that lorazepam was not tested for in the liver and the urine , and we thought they would have never been that incompetent .

At this point I won't be surprised if indeed they believed Murray and did not even bother to check whether he said the truth about the previous nights .

when did they collect the hair samples ? yea two damn months after death , go figure .And the hair toxicology never been brought up so far, no mention of it anywhere , no one talking about it , nothing .

the defence wants to supbonea Klien to ask him what he was giving MJ , why if they already have the hair toxicology.

I want to be positive, I want to be optimistic but the LAPD actions made me really worried

 

[Justthefacts]

I mean at autsopy they checked Michael for such things like anything in his mouth and such