Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

Plenty of proof that he groomed, isolated, and abused kids. On some level the question of trying to figure out whether or not the abuse he performed included sexual abuse reeks less of being interested in trying to establish justice and more in trying to exonerate a long-loved public figure. This is not a matter of "presumption of innocence" because we know he isn't innocent.


See how this fool sound. He knows based on what? There is no proof he groomed no one but there is plenty of proof these people are liars, changed their stories (real victims do not have to change stories); sells stories to tabloid and tell tabloids one thing but when justice come, they change stories, etc. This fool is the reason why some people sit behind bars for crimes they did not committ. He/she know nothing.

Exactly. And there were some comments that were absolutely laughable. The thread was about if it was still ok to play Moonwalker. And someone said that you collect girls in the game and that we should have known.

I mean......

Johnny Depp was trashed like a dog at one time.

I saw this too on Twitter yesterday night. He has presented evidence that he isn't quite as guilty as MeToo made him out to be. He now has tons of fan support and hypocrite YouTubers flock to his side now too.

I read this in the French "scandal" press...I really hope it's wrong

I think the name says it all. Tabloid as can be. There's just no way Janet isn't on his side.
 
As much as I am disappointed that some celebrities have been silent. I am FURIOUS with celebrities who have decided that they are to publicly condemn Michael. Drake and John Legend are officially 'cancelled' for me.

Yeah Drake even too. Although, it could be higher ups that wanted him to remove his song with MJ from the concert setlist. Or has he spoken out himself? Drake is one to talk though, he acted highly questionable with a young female fan himself a long time ago.

"Inflammatory dismissal" without being inflammatory? This is starting to sound like some dystopian novel shit.

Yeah it's crazy. Even had I not said a thing, and just posted that video and fact bomb article... I still would have been banned. Because it goes against these "victims".

I could have told you that was going to happened. I'm a poster on ResetEra and any forum about any allegation is a trap. You can have a perfectly reasonable argument about why the allegations may be false and people will report you and get you ban. ResetEra is extremely PC.

See, I knew for sure they would have a discussion about LN in Etcetera, the general talk discussion side. Because when it was still called Neogaf I had defended MJ a few times when Radar Online released that photoshopped trash of theirs. So many people then condemning him. I posted tons of facts and I wasn't banned, because MeToo wasn't a thing yet.

On purpose I have been staying away from Etcetera because I already knew for a fact how many ignorant souls would fall for LN and condemn MJ all the way. I knew that eventually I wouldn't be able to hold my cool. But then it actually spread into the gaming talk too. So it probably just took one snitch and a "trigger happy" mod who saw the subject and was like "yayyyy I can ban someone again, go me!" sad sad sad.

Wish there was a alternative for the site where I can also get similar leaks and stuff. Don't want to support these mods.
 
Plenty of proof that he groomed, isolated, and abused kids. On some level the question of trying to figure out whether or not the abuse he performed included sexual abuse reeks less of being interested in trying to establish justice and more in trying to exonerate a long-loved public figure. This is not a matter of "presumption of innocence" because we know he isn't innocent.


See how this fool sound. He knows based on what? There is no proof he groomed no one but there is plenty of proof these people are liars, changed their stories (real victims do not have to change stories); sells stories to tabloid and tell tabloids one thing but when justice come, they change stories, etc. This fool is the reason why some people sit behind bars for crimes they did not committ. He/she know nothing.

This post confuses me. Are they saying that he abused kids, but the question is did he sexual abused them? And 'we know he's not innocent'. Maybe he has something the FBI missed because they found nothing, unless we're going to say he pay them off.

Yeah Drake even too. Although, it could be higher ups that wanted him to remove his song with MJ from the concert setlist. Or has he spoken out himself? Drake is one to talk though, he acted highly questionable with a young female fan himself a long time ago.



Yeah it's crazy. Even had I not said a thing, and just posted that video and fact bomb article... I still would have been banned. Because it goes against these "victims".



See, I knew for sure they would have a discussion about LN in Etcetera, the general talk discussion side. Because when it was still called Neogaf I had defended MJ a few times when Radar Online released that photoshopped trash of theirs. So many people then condemning him. I posted tons of facts and I wasn't banned, because MeToo wasn't a thing yet.

On purpose I have been staying away from Etcetera because I already knew for a fact how many ignorant souls would fall for LN and condemn MJ all the way. I knew that eventually I wouldn't be able to hold my cool. But then it actually spread into the gaming talk too. So it probably just took one snitch and a "trigger happy" mod who saw the subject and was like "yayyyy I can ban someone again, go me!" sad sad sad.

Wish there was a alternative for the site where I can also get similar leaks and stuff. Don't want to support these mods.

What you should have done is just post the court documents that showed that they lied in court and changed their story. That way if you're ban, you can mocked the mobs for banning you over posting court documents that have nothing but what happened with no opinion either way attached.

But ResetEra is far more ban happy on subjects of abuse, among other things, given what happened on NeoGaf and the reason ResetEra even came into existence. It's honestly best to avoid any controversial subject since the forums there tend to turn into a circle jerk to the person accused, justified or not. This happened recently with one of the voice actors from Funi who was accused of a bunch of things and got fired. This is despite there being no proof of such acts, people who bandwagon jumped, and people who have been actually caught lying. The accused is currently suing to clear his name. While he maybe guilty, I'm staying neutral but I think he's innocent for the reasons I named above, losing your job over 'he say, she say' seems harsh.
 
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Look at this tweet I just found. It's in Dutch but basically, ever extra detail during LN seems directly taken from Victor Guitierrez's book.

screenshot_20190313-1y7j9z.jpg
 
Don’t start coming for Janet. She’s always supported Michael. Her doing or anything at this stage will just be adding fuel to the fire.
It won’t help Michael as people will just say she’s biased because she’s family. What would be the point.
 
Are you guys sure that the picture were Michael is looking on the screen at Hitler is really Michael?

When it is Michael the picture semes not to be from James (or Wade) cause MJ seames to be much older there.

Did someone saw the picture before LN?

Is it really taken at neverland?
 
Just read about Johnny Depp's case. Good for him, but it took years to start to clear his name.
Meanwhile his ex:
As a result of her false allegations against Mr. Depp, Ms. Heard became a darling of the #MeToo movement, was the first actress named a Human Rights Champion of the United Nations Human Rights Office, was appointed ambassador on women's rights at the American Civil Liberties Union, and was hired by L'Oreal Paris as its global spokesperson," the lawsuit states.
Some people clearly do take advantage of the metoo movement - which wouldn't be happening if the founders emphasised the notion of innocent until proven guilty as well from the beginning.

I'm really wondering how this - otherwise very important - movement will go down on history if it continues to morph into a witch hunt. Besides the possibility of having people falsely accused, the whole thing can get a serious backlash at some point and actually undermine it's very purpose on the long run.

It's strange the leaders of the movement don't see that, or are they as well afraid to speak up as the reaction of the crowd is out of control already?
 
Staffordshire Bullterrier;4249120 said:
Court has set a date for HBO hearing based on the Michael Jackson’s Estate motion to compel arbitration, on June 26,2019 - credit: @MJJJusticePrjct https://t.co/bDe82MzvRF

Oh how the estate work so silently and calmly. i love this post. ... ****ing hell show time will be over boys ! :laughing: hahahaha
 
In my last post I talked about how angry I am with some celebrities. Needed to get that off my chest.

Now I am back to being positive and I just want to say that in the grand scheme of things people who post on the internet do not make up the majority of the people of the planet. Sure they may be representative of how a lot of people feel, but by the same token the people who are out there defending Michael are also representative of how people feel.

We have been here before. 2003-2005 was way worse than this and Michael went on to sell out the O2 arena!
 
With the Johnny Depp situation, all of his friends and ex girlfriends spoke up for him and said that he would never abuse anybody. Same thing has happened with Michael.
 
I love to share again this great video.
Uploaded on March 8 with now over 200 000 views.


Good statment from the same uploader about the MJ Simposon Episode:

 
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Just read about Johnny Depp's case. Good for him, but it took years to start to clear his name.
Meanwhile his ex:

Some people clearly do take advantage of the metoo movement - which wouldn't be happening if the founders emphasised the notion of innocent until proven guilty as well from the beginning.

I'm really wondering how this - otherwise very important - movement will go down on history if it continues to morph into a witch hunt. Besides the possibility of having people falsely accused, the whole thing can get a serious backlash at some point and actually undermine it's very purpose on the long run.

It's strange the leaders of the movement don't see that, or are they as well afraid to speak up as the reaction of the crowd is out of control already?

The Initiative was good, it started out well with exposing Weinstein but it quickly turned into bullshit. A mob mentality and a very dangerous mentality. To see how quickly people went "oh **** this guy" when one woman went against Morgan Freeman, just to name an example. It's dangerous.

Oh how the estate work so silently and calmly. i love this post. ... ****ing hell show time will be over boys ! :laughing: hahahaha

This is the start of things. If they win this that's great and I guess that will mean HBO will need to pay. But it won't expose these men, it won't clear Michael's name out there.

With the Johnny Depp situation, all of his friends and ex girlfriends spoke up for him and said that he would never abuse anybody. Same thing has happened with Michael.

That's great. I haven't been following it but I assume the media covered it very little that his friends stood up for him? I honestly wasn't aware it was that bad. That he was almost losing roles in movies and everything. MeToo is dangerous!
 
When this is over and this three liears are exposed we should start peditions to achive that every video about LN and this two accusers with all this hateful evil comments gets banned from YouTube.
Only a few brave rebuttle videos deserved it then to stay on Youtube.
"Leaving Neverland" and "Michael Jackson" should then never be mentioned in a connection on this platform.
 
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Oh how the estate work so silently and calmly. i love this post. ... ****ing hell show time will be over boys ! :laughing: hahahaha

I know but too silently for my liking, Taj and Brandi are the only ones defending Michael, the Estate are the ones with money and power, I need to see public action soon
 
Oh I am very glad that the Michael Jackson Innocent Project have now delated Leaving Neverland from their channel and the Oprah Interview.

Maybe they have seen my posts where I said that this content is not for children and jung MJ fans.

This is the new video from the Michael Jackson Innocent Project:


Its a again a great video esspecially in the last part!!!

Watch the video above and see that this video uploaded on July 13 2012 didn't fit in Wades newest version of burning MJ memorbilia story because of his abuse.
Here he is still prising Michael:

 
guys, did James state they honeymooned in Paris and Euro Disney in 1988 or not?
 
A WHOLE HOUR CUT FROM LN broadcast in France. How much longer can this last? How much longer until they are all exposed out in the open and not only social media?

screenshot_20190313-1b7jms.jpg
 
Danny boy didn't like it ONE BIT that Wade lied to him. The other day Dan in a interview said "of course it's all real, why wouldn't it. I checked with Wade. But then Wade admitted the jacket wasn't real. This now has to be cut out. So that overly" emotional "scene will be gone.

Good looooooooord.
 
Danny boy didn't like it ONE BIT that Wade lied to him. The other day Dan in a interview said "of course it's all real, why wouldn't it. I checked with Wade. But then Wade admitted the jacket wasn't real. This now has to be cut out. So that overly" emotional "scene will be gone.

Good looooooooord.

Yeah when I whould be on twitter I whould directly ask him:
Dan Reed: How can you still be sure that the selfcalled "Master of Deception" Wade Robson (who cheeted on Brandy Jackson with multible women and from who his own mother said that she herself knowing her son best can't reconize when he is lying and when he is telling the truth, cause he is so good in lieing) was telling you the truth in anything he had told you?

A wait...because you are greedy and dishonest and don't care about the truth or what painful things you are doing to millions of people with your movie!
 
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Meet the fans who are standing up for Michael Jackson

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/ente...Js3sOjBW1dMxXI2jzKO2c1j3jStQyY9gjh4cRFjdJX8J0

_105975886_4d8f842f-ef90-48c4-a6c2-a48d34660bdd.jpg


"He was shy. He was also funny. He was also very sweet."

Anika Kotecha is remembering the Michael Jackson she knew. The one she visited at Neverland, and who used to phone her up to marvel at her trips to the supermarket.

"He'd go, 'You went to the shops? Oh wow, what was that like?'

"And for me, I just went to pick up some bread and milk, but for him that's amazing - because he can't go and do that.

"It's quite sad as well, but he was just the nicest guy."

Kotecha says meeting the Man in the Mirror singer makes it hard for her to believe the rumours and accusations of child abuse that dogged him in life and in death.

"It does put a slant on these things," she says.

"You compare it to the person you knew, and I feel stronger in my convictions because of that."

Kotecha is speaking to the BBC after the broadcast of Leaving Neverland - a four-hour TV documentary which laid out the case against Jackson in gruelling, graphic detail last week on Channel 4 and HBO.

It focuses on two men, Wade Robson and James Safechuck, both in their late 30s, who allege the star befriended them as children, then sexually abused them for years.

The Jackson family has already fired back at the film, calling it a "public lynching" and the "ultimate betrayal" - and they're not the only ones to dispute the claims.

Fans have congregated around the hashtags #MJInnocent and #MJFam, posting lengthy rebuttals to the documentary on YouTube, social media and specially-constructed websites.

They've protested outside Channel 4's headquarters; and even bought adverts on London buses, carrying the slogan: "Facts don't lie, people do".

Dan Reed, who directed Leaving Neverland, told the BBC that he and Jackson's accusers had also been targeted by Jackson's fans.

"There's been a lot of horrible things said about me online and we've received a lot of emails, too," he said a few days before the documentary was broadcast.

"I'm amazed that people feel entitled to do that when they haven't seen the film and don't know anything about me and they know even less about Michael Jackson."

On the last count, at least, he is wrong.

The fans behind the campaign include lawyers and journalists, who are forensically acquainted with Michael Jackson and the allegations against him.

"We surface court statements, investigations, including from the FBI, and previous statements that clearly conflict with the accusations and information presented in the HBO documentary," says Tiffany, a US fan who posts under the name @RideTheBoogie .

"We felt very strongly we needed to be Michael's voice," says Kotecha, who, as an administrator of the MJInnocent.com website, helped organise the bus campaign.

"Because, ironically for someone whose entire career was based on his voice, he no longer has a voice."

The movement to clear Jackson's name has existed since he was first accused of molestation in 1993 ( the case was later settled out of court for $23m ), but it has become increasingly vocal since Leaving Neverland was announced in January.

A main thread of their argument concerns the credibility of Robson and Safechuck, both of whom previously testified that Jackson never abused them. They now say they felt pressured into supporting the singer.

Fans argue that Robson changed his story after being denied a role in a Jackson-themed Cirque Du Soleil production; and that he tried to sell a book detailing the abuse a year before he took his case to the courts.

They also note that both Robson and Safechuck have been unsuccessful in their attempts to sue the Jackson estate - although both men's cases are now on appeal.
'Not one shred of evidence'

"If their allegations were to be true, this would be an atrocity," says Damien Shields, an Australian fan who has written a book on Jackson's music.

"These are very serious allegations of heinous crimes against innocent children. They [Robson and Safechuck] should be allowed to raise their voices and say what they want to say - but also, if you're going to do that, you need to be prepared to be scrutinised.

"And there is really nothing that is convincing when you look at the whole picture, to make you say, 'without doubt I believe these people'."

Fans are also aggrieved that Leaving Neverland offers no right of reply to Jackson or his family.

Reed argues that the film features footage of Michael's denials but Shields says those clips are irrelevant.

"During his life, Wade Robson and James Safechuck supported Michael Jackson. So it baffles me that [Dan Reed] says he's included footage of Michael's denials, when the specific allegations he's made a four-hour film about, Michael never had a chance to reply to."

Going back further, fans highlight Jackson's acquittal on child abuse charges in 2005 ; and direct sceptics to unsealed FBI reports on the star, dating from 1993-4 and 2004-5, which found no evidence of criminal wrongdoing.

"Not one shred of evidence," says Kotecha. "You'd have to be some kind of super-human to be able to hide even the slightest thing from the FBI."

"He was under a 10-year investigation by the FBI, he had two raids on his home, he was on a very public trial," agrees Matt Blank, a spokesperson for the Michael Jackson World Network fan club.

"All of this brought up no evidence of any abuse. So there's a part of you that has to say, 'With all of this scrutiny, why do we suddenly believe [these] two people... that have come forward and gone straight for the money pot?"

What about Jackson's own admission that he shared his bed with children? Doesn't that give him cause for concern?

"I come from a viewpoint [that] Michael lived a very different life than we could ever imagine," Blank told BBC Radio 5 live. "And I think just as the world misunderstood him, he probably misunderstood the world as well, a little.

"There is a big difference between what we deem as odd behaviour [and] committing a crime. You shouldn't mix those two together, because that's a dangerous territory."

Despite his misgivings, Blank says Jackson's accusers "come across as very convincing" in Leaving Neverland. Kotecha also says she approached the documentary with an "open mind".

"I am interested in what they have to say," she says, "because if they can challenge my beliefs, then I will look into it further."

And that's something that stands out: Jackson's fans are not, as Mr Shields puts it, "loopy conspiracy theorists," but a group of people who've arrived at their position thoughtfully and sincerely, even if they find themselves on the wrong side of popular opinion.
Mute Michael Jackson?

Tiffany, who is herself a survivor of sexual abuse, stresses that her defence of Jackson is not mere idol worship.

"The fact that I was abused helps me better understand people who are innocently accused, as well as the minds of those on the dark side," she says.

"It's far easier for many to believe accusations about a man they don't understand or relate to. And, hey, it's more much more thrilling to read and spread gossip than dispel myths, isn't it?

"Missing from that equation is common sense and the review of justice system documents that contradict the accusations.

"As a victim of sexual abuse, I not only have a platform to motivate and inspire fellow victims, but I am compelled to fact-check the stories and credibility of potential victims."

Nonetheless, defending Jackson has been a tough and, at times, lonely task.

"It's exhausting and it affects me," says Shields. "I can't speak for everybody, but it definitely is taking a toll."

And how does it change fans' relationship to Jackson's music?

"I have to be honest, it's damaging it," says Shields. "It's putting a dampener on the pure bliss and joy and magic and escapism that artwork is supposed to provide us."

Tiffany disagrees.

"As fans, we're used to the cadence of negative stories. Each passing wave grounds me to what I truly believe in.

"While others suggest that we 'mute Michael Jackson', I'm instead compelled to turn MJ up. I'm going to play his music every chance I get, as loud as my speakers will handle. I'll continue to fight for what I believe is true.

"It is the least I can do for a man who means so much to me."
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">and found the original document for dismissal of the lawsuit against MJ's companies here <a href="https://t.co/eOyUDzPxh6">https://t.co/eOyUDzPxh6</a></p>&mdash; Green Grass (@sanemjfan) <a href="https://twitter.com/sanemjfan/status/1105644668568641538?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. März 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A good start to my day, travelling to work in the truth! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/FactsDontLiePeopleDo?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#FactsDontLiePeopleDo</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MJInnocent?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MJInnocent</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/nichaeljacksonisinnocent?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#nichaeljacksonisinnocent</a> <a href="https://t.co/FhbsHzMpSp">pic.twitter.com/FhbsHzMpSp</a></p>&mdash; Mayah (@MayahCamara) <a href="https://twitter.com/MayahCamara/status/1105743369630871553?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. März 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">FBI confirms: no child pornography found in Michael Jackson's estate. <a href="https://t.co/W4X4n0di1x">https://t.co/W4X4n0di1x</a> via <a href="https://twitter.com/YouTube?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@YouTube</a></p>&mdash; Bill Whitfield (@MJBODYGUARDS) <a href="https://twitter.com/MJBODYGUARDS/status/1105680598792724485?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. März 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Dude, you are bragging about slamming the claims of someone you’ve never spoken to, was never mentioned in your movie, and has never been contradicted by your star “victim,” who dated her for 7-8 years and was her first love and sexual experience? And you expect us to trust you?! <a href="https://t.co/h8ZDVzUslA">https://t.co/h8ZDVzUslA</a></p>&mdash; John Ziegler (@Zigmanfreud) <a href="https://twitter.com/Zigmanfreud/status/1105665504616767488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. März 2019</a></blockquote>
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