Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

[dancemasterman]

Re: Coroners Report released

I will never understand this charge. A trained doctor SHOULD know that all of these things were risky and he did it anyway. To me, that is premeditation.

for being premeditated, he sure didn't do much premeditation.

Honestly if it was planned he would have come up with a better plan than that. He placed himself at the scene of the crime at the time of the crime and everything.

 

[Ohood]

due to perimortem beads i think that Michael died in other room then he was laid in his bed. because if Mj was awake all night in his bed he will never feel comfortable while these things under his back especially that he is a very thin person and something like this will hurt him so much.

 

[Popescu]

Re: Coroners Report released

for being premeditated, he sure didn't do much premeditation.

Honestly if it was planned he would have come up with a better plan than that. He placed himself at the scene of the crime at the time of the crime and everything.

No doctor is THAT stupid. So it was planned to make him look stupid. Just my opinion though...

 

[Soundmind]

ensleyave, I remember researching TOD back in July. There is no way to establish it, other than rigor mortis, body temperature and a few other factors that do not interest us here.
I was swearing as I realised that they can NOT pinpoint tod, based on what I have read on the Internet, there is a window of one to three hours. The temperature in the house was very high, thus delaying the rigor mortis.

I'm not a medical expert, but, based on what I have read on forensic science, I believe they do not have an accurate time of death.

rigor mortise is controversial subject , Murray knew he would argue it successfully and downplay anything the coroner would find . It is known within the forensic scientists that when the temperature is so high or so low you can no longer depend on rigor mortise to accuretly determine a time of death .

They were lucky to find the abrasions caused by the beads , they were able to tell after he was moved to the floor no healing process started so he was DEAD . But for how long , the coroner had no scientific way to know and certainly will not speculate even if he suspected MJ died earlier .

Murray wanted them to think he was alive by making sure he was warm when they touched him , everything else would be dealt with by putting an expert who would say no it is subjective and you can't say that for sure .

The coroner will make himself a joke if he gives an exact time of death ,let say he says Jackson died at 11 , chernof would ask him , can you scientifically say you are sure he died at that particular time , and what the difference if he died at 11:30 or 11:45 or even 12 ? the coroner would not be able to answer that .

That's probably one of the reasons the DA did not charge Murray with second degree murder .

plus you have to put in mind Murray kept the paramedics at the house for 43 minutes , they were crucial minutes for the coroner , so he had another hour to make it even more complicated to the coroner .

 

[Popescu]

due to perimortem beads i think that Michael died in other room then he was laid in his bed. because if Mj was awake all night in his bed he will never feel comfortable while these things under his back especially that he is a very thin person and something like this will hurt him so much.

Perimortem is at or around the time of death. The report would of said postmortem otherwise. Also, the report corroborates with the picture that appeared in a tabloid, maybe it was not his room (as the report indicated), but all his personal objects were there.

 

[daisy]

rigor mortise is controversial subject , Murray knew he would argue it successfully and downplay anything the coroner would find . It is known within the forensic scientists that when the temperature is so high or so low you can no longer depend on rigor mortise to accuretly determine a time of death .

They were lucky to find the abrasions caused by the beads , they were able to tell after he was moved to the floor no healing process started so he was DEAD . But for how long , the coroner had no scientific way to know and certainly will not speculate even if he suspected MJ died earlier .

Murray wanted them to think he was alive by making sure he was warm when they touched him , everything else would be dealt with by putting an expert who would say no it is subjective and you can't say that for sure .

The coroner will make himself a joke if he gives an exact time of death ,let say he says Jackson died at 11 , chernof would ask him , can you scientifically say you are sure he died at that particular time , and what the difference if he died at 11:30 or 11:45 or even 12 ? the coroner would not be able to answer that .

That's probably one of the reasons the DA did not charge Murray with second degree murder .

plus you have to put in mind Murray kept the paramedics at the house for 43 minutes , they were crucial minutes for the coroner , so he had another hour to make it even more complicated to the coroner .

This is very important here.
It s interesting also that rigor mortise is not any reliable reference point once you play with the temperature.

If Michael died earlier, Murray must have known high temperature even speeds up the whole process.

The short-term strategy was to keep Michael's body warm so that he seems alive for paramedics.
The long-term strategy was to make it impossible for coroner to tell TOD.

 

[Popescu]

This is very important here.
It s interesting also that rigor mortise is not any reliable reference point once you play with the temperature.

If Michael died earlier, Murray must have known high temperature even speeds up the whole process.

The short-term strategy was to keep Michael's body warm so that he seems alive for paramedics.
The long-term strategy was to make it impossible for coroner to tell TOD.

That's what I was trying to say, but I mixed up informations, since I read about this in July.
I clearly recall that there is a window of 1-3 hours, especially if the temperature is tampered with.

He's a doctor, he knows this kind of stuff. And, no, he is not that stupid.
Hopefully, LAPD could corroborate the calls on his cell phone with the tod he gave, and see if they were a match. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Soundmind]

Perimortem is at or around the time of death. The report would of said postmortem otherwise. Also, the report corroborates with the picture that appeared in a tabloid, maybe it was not his room (as the report indicated), but all his personal objects were there.

true , but Ohood does have a valid point , they said perimortem for a reason , if it was caused prior to his death , they would have said antemortem , MJ would have felt these beads were there and he would have removed them especially if we are to believe he was naked .

if the abrasions were created after his death they would have said it was postmortem abrasions , so you are right .


they said perimortem , because they had forensic evidence they were not created before death , nor after death , but at the time of death .

 

[daisy]

That's what I was trying to say, but I mixed up informations, since I read about this in July.
I clearly recall that there is a window of 1-3 hours, especially if the temperature is tampered with.

He's a doctor, he knows this kind of stuff.And, no, he is not that stupid.
Hopefully, LAPD could corroborate the calls on his cell phone with the tod he gave, and see if they were a match. But I'm not holding my breath.

Yeah, let's contrast these smart strategies after Michael was gone
with an unbelievably stupid and unreasonable behaviour beforehand -
almost like two different people? ^^

 

[Popescu]

due to perimortem beads i think that Michael died in other room then he was laid in his bed. because if Mj was awake all night in his bed he will never feel comfortable while these things under his back especially that he is a very thin person and something like this will hurt him so much.

true , but Ohood does have a valid point , they said perimortem for a reason , if it was caused prior to his death , they would have said antemortem , MJ would have felt these beads were there and he would have removed them especially if we are to believe he was naked .

if the abrasions were created after his death they would have said it was postmortem abrasions , so you are right .


they said perimortem , because they had forensic evidence they were not created before death , nor after death , but at the time of death .

So, how's the point valid? I did not say they were antemortem. Just that the perimortem points to the fact that he passed in that bed, on those beads.

 

[Popescu]

Yeah, let's contrast these smart strategies after Michael was gone
with an unbelievably stupid and unreasonable behaviour beforehand -
almost like two different people? ^^

Daisy, you know nothing! He had an epiphany.
That, or he has split personality disorder.
Sorry, cynical mood here too. Will go watch an episode of House MD, and then to sleep.

Good night!
Maira.

 

[daisydaisy]

Please could someone post me the page numbers from the report that contain pharmacological data / reports? I have a background in pharmacology, and I want to read this information but I can't get past the first few pages. I can't face reading the whole report.

Thanks in advance

 

[Soundmind]

So, how's the point valid? I did not say they were antemortem. Just that the perimortem points to the fact that he passed in that bed, on those beads.

those were ruled as perimortem not antemortem , WHY ?

 

[daisydaisy]

Does it say in the report the size of the empty propofol bottle that was found in the room?
For how long can you keep taking doses out of the same vial before bacterial contamination can occur?

 

[Popescu]

those were ruled as perimortem not antemortem , WHY ?

If you're suggesting that the body has been moved around tod, I'll have to think about it, but my first instinct is no. Yes, he was thin, but he had a massive amount of medication designed to numb everything in his body. And Propofol "sleep" is not sleep, it's anesthesia.

daisydaisy, page 6 to page 10, page 41 to 48, maybe 50 for tox findings. Thank you for contributing!!

 

[Ohood]

Perimortem is at or around the time of death. The report would of said postmortem otherwise. Also, the report corroborates with the picture that appeared in a tabloid, maybe it was not his room (as the report indicated), but all his personal objects were there.

i read many reports that appeared after his death saying that MJ collapsed in another room and then was moved to his room .also,many here have suggested that his death was not immediate.

Edit:
Perimortem: at or near the time of death; in perimortem injuries, bone damage occurring at or near the time of death, without any evidence of healing.

http://anthropology.si.edu/writteninbone/comic/activity/pdf/Perimortem.pdf

 

[Soundmind]

I think they only mentioned it was an empty propofol injectable emulsion .

For how long can you keep taking doses out of the same vial before bacterial contamination can occur?

they mentioned that in the report , six hours .

 

[daisydaisy]

If you're suggesting that the body has been moved around tod, I'll have to think about it, but my first instinct is no. Yes, he was thin, but he had a massive amount of medication designed to numb everything in his body. And Propofol "sleep" is not sleep, it's anesthesia.

daisydaisy, page 6 to page 10, page 41 to 48, maybe 50 for tox findings. Thank you for contributing!!

Thanks I'll read it soon and then post my thoughts.

 

[daisydaisy]

I think they only mentioned it was an empty propofol enjectable emulsion .


they mentioned that in the report , six hours .

Thanks.

 

[Soundmind]

If you're suggesting that the body has been moved around tod, I'll have to think about it, but my first instinct is no. Yes, he was thin, but he had a massive amount of medication designed to numb everything in his body. And Propofol "sleep" is not sleep, it's anesthesia.

daisydaisy, page 6 to page 10, page 41 to 48, maybe 50 for tox findings. Thank you for contributing!!

no I'm not suggesting that, I don't believe he moved him to another room , I believe when he was performing CPR , or removing the IV and cleaning the scene he probably repositioned MJ and that's how the beads ended up under his butt . I'm sure Murray is supper pissed , he for sure did not think the beads would be evidence MJ died in that bed .

and I don't think the DA is going to charge him with anything else , if the coroner did not give him a time of death , he can't say the calls were a cover up . and I'm pretty sure if the DA wants to charge him with a harsher charge he would have done . Our only hope is a stack of charges incase they decide to call a grand jury , or during the preliminary hearing .

 

[Ohood]

when Murry was performing CRP and /or cleaning the scene MJ was already dead, but the definithion of this word says at or near " not before or after"

i did not believe the reports before but after reading the descroption , these things came back to my mind , especially that at the begining the info were coming out from different sources without the cover- up that start to happen later.

 

[Beachlover]

Does it say in the report the size of the empty propofol bottle that was found in the room?
For how long can you keep taking doses out of the same vial before bacterial contamination can occur?

It did not give a size, but it said 1% Propofol. The rule here is about 6 hours.

 

[Beachlover]

no I'm not suggesting that, I don't believe he moved him to another room , I believe when he was performing CPR , or removing the IV and cleaning the scene he probably repositioned MJ and that's how the beads ended up under his butt . I'm sure Murray is supper pissed , he for sure did not think the beads would be evidence MJ died in that bed .

Here is my summation of what happened. The very first few pages of the report are what was found the first day. The report states that the decedant was found not breathing and pulled to the floor for CPR. This is from when Murray first spoke to the police in the hospital.

It was not until AFTER other evidence came out that we learn the CPR was performed on the bed. The beads prove that?

 

[bouee]

Here is my summation of what happened. The very first few pages of the report are what was found the first day. The report states that the decedant was found not breathing and pulled to the floor for CPR. This is from when Murray first spoke to the police in the hospital.

It was not until AFTER other evidence came out that we learn the CPR was performed on the bed. The beads prove that?

Murray did not speak to the police or coroner on 25th. If you look at the serach warrants, you will see that the LAPD detectives and the coroner detective could not locate Murray on 25th.

They were able to talk to him on 27th, and the report you are mentionning is dated 26th. It is based on what other people told the LAPD.

Edit : maybe he did pull Micheal to the floor for CPR after the 911 call, it's the 911 call that showed he was doing CPR on the bed, it's what Alberto Alvarez said.

 

[bowen9999]

I remember researching lupus after Michael died, seeing this lady's clips on youtube and crying real hard. They are worth watching. She also put up two videos about Michael.

The symptoms match. She is using this light because she is ashamed of how swelled and blotchy her face looks after (cortico-)steroids.

[youtube]ScIuG176Ejo[/youtube]

Wow..... that's so sad. Very informative though. I had no clue about Lupus at all. Thank you.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

It was not until AFTER other evidence came out that we learn the CPR was performed on the bed. The beads prove that?

What evidence? You mean the 911 call which came straight away which you can hear that a cardiologist doesnt know how perform CPR and a 911 operator knows more than a Dr and yet the Dr is the higher authority? Based on that fact the 911 operator shouldnt have hung up and that 911 caller should have been reprimanded for it but no nothing.

Murray did not speak to the police or coroner on 25th. If you look at the serach warrants, you will see that the LAPD detectives and the coroner detective could not locate Murray on 25th.

They were able to talk to him on 27th, and the report you are mentionning is dated 26th. It is based on what other people told the LAPD.

Thats right. Murray did not go to the hospital at all. Murray didnt speak to the cops until he went and got a lawyer, which is something a guilty person does!

 

[bouee]

Thats right. Murray did not go to the hospital at all. Murray didnt speak to the cops until he went and got a lawyer, which is something a guilty person does!

Just a little correction, still according to the search warrants, Murray was in the ambulance, and went to the hospital. It says he spoke to the family. Then, when the LAPD got there, and the coroner (around 5 pm if I'm correct), they could not locate him.
Murray said he didn't know he was needed, so he left.

One detail : according to the Coroner report, Murray never told the paramedics nor the hospital about the propofol. He said he gave lozarepam. He told the LAPD about the propofol, on 27th, so after the house was searched.

 

[Beachlover]

Murray did not speak to the police or coroner on 25th. If you look at the serach warrants, you will see that the LAPD detectives and the coroner detective could not locate Murray on 25th.

They were able to talk to him on 27th, and the report you are mentionning is dated 26th. It is based on what other people told the LAPD.

Edit : maybe he did pull Micheal to the floor for CPR after the 911 call, it's the 911 call that showed he was doing CPR on the bed, it's what Alberto Alvarez said.

My point is though that this point was made on the first day. They don't pull later information from the first day interview to the first day events. This is the first day events being noted on the report. So, whether it was from Murrays mouth or what someone stated was from Murrays mouth, that is the information they were given at that time.

This would prove that the decedant was actually on the bed at or near the tme of death. The report is stating the events of the 25th. It doesn't matter when it was dated. It is on record.

 

[bouee]

Ok, so if I get your point : the 911 call was made at 12 22. The recording of that call shows Michael was on the bed at that time. Then sometime after that, given the coroner's report, we can assume he was pulled to the floor for CPR. At that point, when he was pulled to the floor, he was already gone.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

This would prove that the decedant was actually on the bed at or near the tme of death.

Decadent? His name is Michael Jackson.

Just a little correction, still according to the search warrants, Murray was in the ambulance, and went to the hospital. It says he spoke to the family. Then, when the LAPD got there, and the coroner (around 5 pm if I'm correct), they could not locate him.
Murray said he didn't know he was needed, so he left.

Yes you're correct thank you because Murray refused to sign the Death Certificate and then left and no other Dr would sign the DC either.

Ok, so if I get your point : the 911 call was made at 12 22. The recording of that call shows Michael was on the bed at that time. Then sometime after that, given the coroner's report, we can assume he was pulled to the floor for CPR. At that point, when he was pulled to the floor, he was already gone.

Have their been similar deaths by Propofol to work out a time frame from when to much was given to when someone died?