Latest on MJJC

Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

I was thinking about what Soundmind posted about repositionning, it's possible MJ was not lying on these beads at all in the beginning, if, for example, MJ was lying on his right side (IV was on his lower left leg).

Then if we think Murray tried CPR , or for whatever reason (checking he was not breathing for example ) he put MJ on his back, and did not notice or didn't care about the beads.
 
bouee said:
I was thinking about what Soundmind posted about repositionning, it's possible MJ was not lying on these beads at all in the beginning, if, for example, MJ was lying on his right side (IV was on his lower left leg).

Then if we think Murray tried CPR , or for whatever reason (checking he was not breathing for example ) he put MJ on his back, and did not notice or didn't care about the beads.
Click to expand...

It is possible.
The questions remains, if this is possible that these abrasions were produced that quickly (maybe due to repositioning?)
 
Beachlover said:
I remember reading about the testing in the lines but how do we know this was found in the medical bag? Did it say this? I didn't see it listed as part of the bag contents.
Click to expand...

They said the four IV system components were seized on 29,6,2009. That's when they went to seize the bag .
 
daisy said:
It is possible.
The questions remains, if this is possible that these abrasions were produced that quickly (maybe due to repositioning?)
Click to expand...

Beachlover explained earlier what perimortem abrasions were. I have no idea how quick it is, I don't remember if he/she said that.

We can not know how long MJ had been lying of them (only Murray knows, and what he's been saying so far ....), then it can be helpful to know when he was not on them anymore, because at that moment, MJ had gone. So who took him to the floor (assuming he was taken to the floor as the coroner's report say) : was it Murray with Alvarez right after the 911 call, or the paramedics ? If it was the paramedics, then when ? At 12 26 or later ?

It will give a better idea, but will not clear the 11 or 12 problem. I'm not sure either it is possible to determine such a precise time of death.
 
Soundmind said:
They said the four IV system components were seized on 29,6,2009. That's when they went to seize the bag .
Click to expand...

Thanks. I found it after reading. It didn't say if the IV catheter was removed from his arm before the EMT came though. I didn't see that mentioned but maybe it was part of what they found in the bag.
 
Soundmind said:
They said the four IV system components were seized on 29,6,2009. That's when they went to seize the bag .
Click to expand...

Another strange thing is that the Forensic report doesn't mention eqipment with traces of the other drugs Murray said he gave. Am I missing something ?
 
Beachlover said:
Thanks. I found it after reading. It didn't say if the IV catheter was removed from his arm before the EMT came though. I didn't see that mentioned but maybe it was part of what they found in the bag.
Click to expand...

the IV was in his leg , not arm . they said the IV system was recovered from the house on 29,6 so clearly Murray told them where to find it .
 
I don't understand why Murry wasn't charged with second degree murder. I'm not from the states and couldn't find the definition of second degree murder in the California Penal code - it starts right with what seems to be a definition of first degree murder: "Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought." link: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199

I did find a definition of second degree murder in another place and it seem to fit what Murry did: "Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first degree murder and voluntary manslaughter. link: http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html

It seems obvious to me that Murry acted in a way that showed lack of concern for human life. So I don't understand, even if the coroner could not establish a TOD why would it matter? Isn't it enough that he administered lorazepam and then propfol? and on top of that didn't monitor Michael the way he should have?
 
bouee said:
Beachlover explained earlier what perimortem abrasions were. I have no idea how quick it is, I don't remember if he/she said that.

We can not know how long MJ had been lying of them (only Murray knows, and what he's been saying so far ....), then it can be helpful to know when he was not on them anymore, because at that moment, MJ had gone. So who took him to the floor (assuming he was taken to the floor as the coroner's report say) : was it Murray with Alvarez right after the 911 call, or the paramedics ? If it was the paramedics, then when ? At 12 26 or later ?

It will give a better idea, but will not clear the 11 or 12 problem. I'm not sure either it is possible to determine such a precise time of death.
Click to expand...

I did some recap:

Beachlover said:
He was laying on the beads and they left an indent and red marks. Perimortem is at or around the time of death

We had a patient lose his bottom teeth and they were in his bed all night and it looked like someone bit his arse in the morning.
Click to expand...

How did you know it was all night? was there any additional info available?

Soundmind said:
:

the beads are a clear evidence after he was moved to the floor he was ALREADY GONE , but they can't determine the time of death from the beads alone , the perimortem stage , means they did not happen before death , nor after death . nor after death we know how they determined that no healing process , but not before death that what I don't understand what do they mean by that ? and if MJ wanted to sleep and those beads were underneath him he would have removed them before he asked Murray to put him to sleep , they were under his butt and he was naked .so they would have bothered him certainly .
Click to expand...


Soundmind said:
It means they did not heal , and there was not even an attempt or a process of healing , then he died BEFORE he was moved to the floor , if he was still alive the process of healing would have started IMMEDIATLY , we are talking about using very very much advanced technology in forensic science to determine whether in those wounds such a process started , they determined IT DID NOT START AT ALL , so he died before he was moved to the floor . .
Click to expand...
 
abigaillovesmj said:
I don't understand why Murry wasn't charged with second degree murder. I'm not from the states and couldn't find the definition of second degree murder in the California Penal code - it starts right with what seems to be a definition of first degree murder: "Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought." link: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199

I did find a definition of second degree murder in another place and it seem to fit what Murry did: "Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first degree murder and voluntary manslaughter. link: http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html

It seems obvious to me that Murry acted in a way that showed lack of concern for human life. So I don't understand, even if the coroner could not establish a TOD why would it matter? Isn't it enough that he administered lorazepam and then propfol? and on top of that didn't monitor Michael the way he should have?
Click to expand...


What he did was more in line with manslaughter because there was no intent or malice behind it. Those two things are needed to make a strong second degree murder case. Without them, a jury may not convict Murray on that charge.
 
and yes from the urine , propofol was given for a short period of time less than 15 minutes , and from the high blood concentration MJ died while he was hooked to propofol , the survival time was short .
Click to expand...
inregards to this. i was thinking about it when stood at work bored as usual. the concentration was high in his blood so that indicates he died pretty soon. but is there a way of finding out what the concentration was originally.becasue lets say i dunno it was 8.3 orignally than it was found to 4.0 when they did the tests that tells u how long he was alive after he was injected. the question really is how do u know he died within say 10 mins of being injected if you dont know what the orignal concentration level was. it might have started at 8.0 and gone down to 4.0 instead of starting at 4.5 and then only having time to go down to 4.0
 
HeroR said:
What he did was more in line with manslaughter because there was no intent or malice behind it. Those two things are needed to make a strong second degree murder case. Without them, a jury may not convict Murray on that charge.
Click to expand...

u dont need malice for murder 2 cali based on gross disregard. malice is implied because of the negligent actions. but from reading the definition it doesnt have to be proved per a normal murder charge
 
abigaillovesmj said:
I don't understand why Murry wasn't charged with second degree murder. I'm not from the states and couldn't find the definition of second degree murder in the California Penal code - it starts right with what seems to be a definition of first degree murder: "Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought." link: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199

I did find a definition of second degree murder in another place and it seem to fit what Murry did: "Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first degree murder and voluntary manslaughter. link: http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html

It seems obvious to me that Murry acted in a way that showed lack of concern for human life. So I don't understand, even if the coroner could not establish a TOD why would it matter? Isn't it enough that he administered lorazepam and then propfol? and on top of that didn't monitor Michael the way he should have?
Click to expand...

From the way i have understood it all it's because they couldn't link CM to the smoking gun yet. Even though all the other evidence points toward murder, without the smoking gun in murray's hands they will never be able to make the charges stick.

If i'm not mistaken CM had to give fingerprints and DNA so maybe if they can link that to the fatale propofol shot we will see the charges increase..

Let's say worst scenario is that they the fingerprints or DNA on the propofol injection don't match with the once they have found than we can be sure there are others involved.

In now way do i believe CM is not involved in this all, because imo he is...
 
esther1972 said:
From the way i have understood it all it's because they couldn't link CM to the smoking gun yet. Even though all the other evidence points toward murder, without the smoking gun in murray's hands they will never be able to make the charges stick.

If i'm not mistaken CM had to give fingerprints and DNA so maybe if they can link that to the fatale propofol shot we will see the charges increase..

Let's say worst scenario is that they the fingerprints or DNA on the propofol injection don't match with the once they have found than we can be sure there are others involved.

In now way do i believe CM is not involved in this all, because imo he is...
Click to expand...

We already know that Murray injected Michael. He admitted to that.

What they can not do is prove that his intention was to kill him. That is why manslaughter.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
u dont need malice for murder 2 cali based on gross disregard. malice is implied because of the negligent actions. but from reading the definition it doesnt have to be proved per a normal murder charge
Click to expand...


I said you would need malice or intent to convict. You could charge someone with murder 2, but that does not mean you would get a conviction, which is what I meant. Murder is a very strong word regardless of degrees. For a jury to all agree to Murder 2, there have to be some degree of malice. Without it, you could end up with a hung jury or even letting him walk.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
inregards to this. i was thinking about it when stood at work bored as usual. the concentration was high in his blood so that indicates he died pretty soon. but is there a way of finding out what the concentration was originally.becasue lets say i dunno it was 8.3 orignally than it was found to 4.0 when they did the tests that tells u how long he was alive after he was injected. the question really is how do u know he died within say 10 mins of being injected if you dont know what the orignal concentration level was. it might have started at 8.0 and gone down to 4.0 instead of starting at 4.5 and then only having time to go down to 4.0
Click to expand...
it's blood/urine comparison that gives you the clue. if there was more in urine AND more in blood it makes it similar.
the dose was high anyway so each bigger dose makes it even worse for Murray.

that's how I understood it
 
I said you would need malice or intent to convict.
Click to expand...
yeah i know what u mean. thats one reason i think the police thought about as to why they didnt go for murder 2. because of the M word. but if the jury came back and said we didnt convict because there wasnt any malice well wouldnt that be grounds for some sort of appeal as for murder 2 gross disregard, you dont have to prove malice so the jury would have read/carrined out the instructions wrong and aquitted someone wrongly based on the charge they were deciding on
 
Beachlover said:
We already know that Murray injected Michael. He admitted to that.

What they can not do is prove that his intention was to kill him. That is why manslaughter.
Click to expand...

He admited to have injected 25mg only...and from the coronor we know that's way more...as long as they can't proof it was indeed murray giving him that lethal amount the can't charge him with murder...

No where did the coronor say murray give the lethal dose...the coronor said after the iv was started anybody could have given Michael that lethal dose...

I'm not saying this on behalf of Murray, i'm saying this because i don't want you to be dissapointed...
 
He admited to have injected 25mg only...and from the coronor we know that's way more...as long as they can't proof it was indeed murray giving him that lethal amount the can't charge him with murder...
Click to expand...
i dont think thats the issue its finding a motive. many ppl getcharged with murder when theres no smoking gun, heck not even a body. real murdercharges are about finding a motive etc which is very hard to do when u have a doctor invovled. itsn ot like this was a lay person who injected it
 
Yes, he admitted to the 25 and likely it was more but there is also the 'human' factor here when giving medications.

That makes it an accident if he drew up the incorrect amount. If they could actually prove he intentionally drew up more and intended to kill, then it is murder.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
inregards to this. i was thinking about it when stood at work bored as usual. the concentration was high in his blood so that indicates he died pretty soon. but is there a way of finding out what the concentration was originally.becasue lets say i dunno it was 8.3 orignally than it was found to 4.0 when they did the tests that tells u how long he was alive after he was injected. the question really is how do u know he died within say 10 mins of being injected if you dont know what the orignal concentration level was. it might have started at 8.0 and gone down to 4.0 instead of starting at 4.5 and then only having time to go down to 4.0
Click to expand...

no it did not take 10 minutes , it was either immediatley or within two minutes IF it was only a bolus injection , since propofol acts very fast the concentration would drop within one or two minutes to 4 again after a bolus injection .

the 10 minutes we gave was an estimation of how long MJ was hooked to propofol , he may have given him a bolus injection and after a few minutes he gave him another one . the first did not kill him but the second did .

either way MJ died while he was hooked to propofol you can be sure of that , and the amounts in his body does suggest it was less than 15 minutes .
 
elusive moonwalker said:
i dont think thats the issue its finding a motive. many ppl getcharged with murder when theres no smoking gun, heck not even a body. real murdercharges are about finding a motive etc which is very hard to do when u have a doctor invovled. itsn ot like this was a lay person who injected it
Click to expand...


Which is what I meant. I am defending Murray, but people usually want a smoking gun for murder. Which is why I think the DA didn't bother to charge Murray with murder 2. They maybe able to prove that he was careless to the point of murder, but can you really convict 12 people of that. Some may not convict simply because Michael supposedly asked for the drug in question and was looking for a doctor. It is not fair, but their are people who think that way and the DA have to consider them when building a case.
 
esther1972 said:
He admited to have injected 25mg only...and from the coronor we know that's way more...as long as they can't proof it was indeed murray giving him that lethal amount the can't charge him with murder...
Click to expand...
There was NO lethal amount at all. MJ died because two drugs that shouldn't have been mixed were mixed, and for the lack of proper care while he was given propofol. What happened is a common side effect of propofol, made worse by another drug, and that could and should have been anticipated.
He admitted to giving those drugs. So even if you think a third person came in and injected more propofol, I don't see how it will help Murray. Unless he can show that that 3rd person gave the other drug, and removed the monitoring equipment (he didn't have most of it anyway), put it back in his bag. Then if we think there is a third person, then someone else would have been / will be charged along with Murray.

No where did the coronor say murray give the lethal dose...the coronor said after the iv was started anybody could have given Michael that lethal dose...
Click to expand...
It's not the coroner's job to prove who did it, their job is to explain how it happened.
 
Soundmind said:
no it did not take 10 minutes , it was either immediatley or within two minutes IF it was only a bolus injection , since propofol acts very fast the concentration would drop within one or two minutes to 4 again after a bolus injection .

the 10 minutes we gave was an estimation of how long MJ was hooked to propofol , he may have given him a bolus injection and after a few minutes he gave him another one . the first did not kill him but the second did .

either way MJ died while he was hooked to propofol you can be sure of that , and the amounts in his body does suggest it was less than 15 minutes .
Click to expand...

yeah but what im saying is how do we know his levels werent at 8 and had time to go down to 4 b4 he died. did his levels start at 4.5 and only went down to 4 showing he lasted minutes. without knowing what his levels started at how do we know how long it took to go down to 4 ie how long it took b4 he died
 
elusive moonwalker said:
yeah but what im saying is how do we know his levels werent at 8 and had time to go down to 4 b4 he died. did his levels start at 4.5 and only went down to 4 showing he lasted minutes. without knowing what his levels started at how do we know how long it took to go down to 4 ie how long it took b4 he died
Click to expand...

if it was 8 , it would have dropped to 4 within two to three minutes .

It acts very fast and its concentration drops very fast , 4 proves he died within one to two minutes of a bolus injection OR if he was given propofol through an infusion IV then he died while he was attached to it .

Clearly they tested the IV system to see how he was giving it , and from their findings it seems it was given as a bolus injection . bolus injection means within one to two minutes .

urine concentration confirm whether it was a bolus injection or an infusion IV , he was given propofol for less than 15 minutes .
 
Last edited:
from the anesthesiologist MJ would not have been able to inject himself "IF ONLY bolus injections via a syringe were used " but Murray said he gave it through an IV drip , they did not give their opinion on that one . I'm pretty sure he is going to say that MJ was the one who increased the drip while he left the room for two minutes . Now hopefully they tested the finger prints on the IV tube . They did say they did not trace any propofol in the long tube , but they need to prove MJ's finger prints were not on the part of the IV that increases the rate of drops .
 
What would have been the difference for MJ ? I don't understand why it would be almost impossible for him with a syringe and possible via an IV ?

They talk about the length of the catheter, so that doesn't change ?

Then why did a coroner ruled it was a homicide ? I think it must be about the lack of proper care, and adding lozarepam then.

I get it from your previous post that the amounts of drugs actually given can not be checked ??
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top