Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

[rainny]

There is a human factor (yes...even in Murray) here. I am not sure what his state of mind was when he was working that night. Was he over tired?


[/QUOTE]



There was some weed found and two empty cigarette packs.

I read there were in Murray's bag.

 

[ensleyave]

Beachlover "I'll keep what I find to myself for now because obviously no one wants to hear it anyway"

Good idea

 

[daisy]

I thought that was kind of established here that Michael died minutes after being administered propofol.
So either Murray lies about the time of giving him propofol (1040) OR Michael was far gone when he paramedics came (1226).

I also thought that was more or less established that Michael died on his bed due to perimortem beads.
That makes it more probable that Murray just took it so long to call paramedics while Michael was already gone.
the other possibility is that Murray gave propofol to Michael at midday, so then lied about the time of giving propofol. But again this makes it VERY strange he would give him propofol at that time of the DAY.

I though also about elusive moonwalker's post - did they notice the beads once they came there?

I was responding to your OWN THEORY , that MJ was probably paranoid and that's why he stopped taking lorazepam , you are AGAIN making excuses to Murray when the EVIDENCE does not suggest he was HONEST or even attempted to say the truth .

He lied FOR A REASON about giving lorazerpam the last two nights .

Sorry, but why shifting credibility to Murray instead of Michael? It's Murray who screwed up afterwards and is not credible at all.

If this is true that Lorazepam produced such addiction then it seems totally not logical to wean Michael off propofol with this drug. Especially that this did not work? And that speaks to me.

Besides, if we assume that Michael was "paranoid" (sorry but if we do NOT want to help Murray's defense we should NOT suggest that) then how would Murray "deceive" Michael telling him that he is giving him one drug when in reality he gives him another? I am sure Michael was VERY MUCH aware of drugs and medicines, plus he WOULD NOT like to put himself in danger.

And IF this is true about giving ephedrine to Michael, well maybe also beyond Michael's knowledge? I mean why would he do that?

 

[xthunderx2]

ephedrine was detected in MJ's urine , so he was given it , detectives seized a similar drug from Murray's office in Houston , he clearly gave it to him , it was the worst thing he could prescribe to MJ since he knew very well how severe his insomnia problem was and how hard MJ was trying to sleep .

Murray was not doing a good job in treating MJ's insomnia , he was prescribing to him a benzo after the other , all of them were a huge potential problem , unlike clonazepam Metzeger prescribed .

You don't replace propofol with an IV LORAZEPAM , you don't do that , since when a doctor would do such a thing ?

and You can't say he told the truth regarding lorazepam , clearly it was not given prior to that day , and clearly it was not even given at the early hours of that night . It would have been in his urine .

so in all actuality Murray was adding to Michael's insomnia problem by giving him the benzo's.....because one of the side affects IS insomnia....Murray KNEW what he was doing all along....as you say he wanted Michael addicted..

 

[Soundmind]

Yes, Ephedrine was found in his system but I don't know for a fact who gave it to him or why he took it.

I did not ever say he told the truth about the Lorazepam.

I am not going to sit here defending myself. I don't have to.

This is supposed to be facts and yet you have people coming into the thread and saying "Well, I know this to be true", "The autopsy can be wrong", and now you are saying Murray was trying to control MJ with drugs. That's a conspiracy theory statement.

I guess what I am saying here is that you are going to see it how you want to see it just as others do and it doesn't matter what the report says or doesn't say and you make assumptions.

I'll keep what I find to myself for now because obviously no one wants to hear it anyway.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories , everyone here knows that very well, you took murray's side , you said what he claimed was true , I said HOW ABOUT THAT .

I did say it appears from the meds he was prescribing to him , he was trying to make MJ addictive to certain drugs , his way of treating MJ's insomnia was not helpful and he as a doctor should have known it would not have solved MJ's problem , infact he was going to become addicted to benzos within a very short time and then his problem would have been much worse . You don't wean people off NON ADDICTIVE DRUGS BY PRESCRIBING HIGHLY ADDICTIVE DRUGS . You don't give lorazepam via an IV to someone who was going to dance and perform very sophisticated step dance within hours , he knew what daily lorazepam would cause to MJ , and MJ did stop taking it for a reason before .
and yes we are yet to hear why his contract was not signed by anyone , not even MJ .

 

[Soundmind]

I thought that was kind of established here that Michael died minutes after being administered propofol.
So either Murray lies about the time of giving him propofol (1040) OR Michael was far gone when he paramedics came (1226).

I also thought that was more or less established that Michael died on his bed due to perimortem beads.
That makes it more probable that Murray just took it so long to call paramedics while Michael was already gone.
the other possibility is that Murray gave propofol to Michael at midday, so then lied about the time of giving propofol. But again this makes it VERY strange he would give him propofol at that time of the DAY.

I though also about elusive moonwalker's post - did they notice the beads once they came there?



Sorry, but why shifting credibility to Murray instead of Michael? It's Murray who screwed up afterwards and is not credible at all.

If this is true that Lorazepam produced such addiction then it seems totally not logical to wean Michael off propofol with this drug. Especially that this did not work? And that speaks to me.

Besides, if we assume that Michael was "paranoid" (sorry but if we do NOT want to help Murray's defense we should NOT suggest that) then how would Murray "deceive" Michael telling him that he is giving him one drug when in reality he gives him another? I am sure Michael was VERY MUCH aware of drugs and medicines, plus he WOULD NOT like to put himself in danger.

And IF this is true about giving ephedrine to Michael, well maybe also beyond Michael's knowledge? I mean why would he do that?

That's what I don't get , he lied , he clearly lied , why Beachlover is making excuses for him , why are you trying to suggest that he was telling the truth and we should give him the benefit of the doubt , many benzos were prescribed to MJ , non of the bottles he finished , he did that for a reason , yet murray kept prescribing benzos to him , he knew they were not working for him , yet he kept prescribing , then he started pushing them via an IV , and the first day he pushed lorazepam via an IV PLUS PROPOFOL he ended up killing him .

 

[Phereinice]

That's what I don't get , he lied , he clearly lied , why Beachlover is making excuses for him , why are you trying to suggest that he was telling the truth and we should give him the benefit of the doubt , many benzos were prescribed to MJ , non of the bottles he finished , he did that for a reason , yet murray kept prescribing benzos to him , he knew they were not working for him , yet he kept prescribing , then he started pushing them via an IV , and the first day he pushed lorazepam via an IV PLUS PROPOFOL he ended up killing him .

IF hair tox test were done would we know for how long MJ was on benzos?

 

[Soundmind]

IF hair tox test were done would we know for how long MJ was on benzos?

yes we would , hair growth 1- 1.5 cm each month , MJ was taking benzos but not regularly .If he was addicted to them , the amounts would have been much higher.

Murray prescribed to him temazepam one of the most highly addictive benzos in december but MJ did not take all the pills . I can't understand how a doctor would treat a patient suffering from severe insomnia that lasted YEARS with temazepam .

then MJ got clonazepam from Dr. Metzeger in April, clonazepam is a benzo that takes THREE YEARS to build a tolerance and is prescribed to people with severe insomnia like MJ but it also did not work . MJ did not take all the pills , so he at somepoint felt it was not working so why even bother .


after ten days of Metzeger prescribing clonazepam , Murray prescribed lorazepam , again ONE of the most highly addictive benzos out there , MJ did not take all the pills so it seems he felt either it was not working , or it was not good for him and that's may explain why he seemed "out of it" sometimes . Lorazepam and sophisticated dance steps :smilerolleyes:

then five days before MJ's death Murray prescribed to him diazepam , only three tablets were missing .

 

[Phereinice]

yes we would , hair growth 1- 1.5 cm each month , MJ was taking benzos but not regularly .If he was addicted to them , the amounts would have been much higher.

Murray prescribed to him temazepam one of the most highly addictive benzos in december but MJ did not take all the pills . I can't understand how a doctor would treat a patient suffering from severe insomnia that lasted YEARS with temazepam .

then MJ got clonazepam from Dr. Metzeger in April, clonazepam is a benzo that takes THREE YEARS to build a tolerance and is prescribed to people with severe insomnia like MJ but it also did not work . MJ did not take all the pills , so he at somepoint felt it was not working so why even bother .


after ten days of Metzeger prescribing clonazepam , Murray prescribed lorazepam , again ONE of the most highly addictive benzos out there , MJ did not take all the pills so it seems he felt either it was not working , or it was not good for him and that's may explain why he seemed "out of it" sometimes . Lorazepam and sophisticated dance steps :smilerolleyes:

then five days before MJ's death Murray prescribed to him diazepam , only three tablets were missing .

Thank you so much for your answer.
I appreciate every new angle is brought on this investigation and this new approach is quite intriguing.

 

[xthunderx2]

yes we would , hair growth 1- 1.5 cm each month , MJ was taking benzos but not regularly .If he was addicted to them , the amounts would have been much higher.

Murray prescribed to him temazepam one of the most highly addictive benzos in december but MJ did not take all the pills . I can't understand how a doctor would treat a patient suffering from severe insomnia that lasted YEARS with temazepam .

then MJ got clonazepam from Dr. Metzeger in April, clonazepam is a benzo that takes THREE YEARS to build a tolerance and is prescribed to people with severe insomnia like MJ but it also did not work . MJ did not take all the pills , so he at somepoint felt it was not working so why even bother .


after ten days of Metzeger prescribing clonazepam , Murray prescribed lorazepam , again ONE of the most highly addictive benzos out there , MJ did not take all the pills so it seems he felt either it was not working , or it was not good for him and that's may explain why he seemed "out of it" sometimes . Lorazepam and sophisticated dance steps :smilerolleyes:

then five days before MJ's death Murray prescribed to him diazepam , only three tablets were missing .

so that in itself answers the question as to weather MJ was addicted to them or not and the evidence that you have presented proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not...this is just another whole in Murray's lies.

 

[Beachlover]

I will attempt once again to explain things. First of all, I am not on any defense or prosecution team here. I am reading a report and looking at the same evidence as everyone else here is looking at.

In post #808 I discussed getting someone off (weaning is what it is called) Propofol and I copied and pasted that information for you to read. That document showed that you would give Benzodiazapenes instead of the Propofol. I didn't make that up. Thats what the document states.

Everyone comes here with a pre conceived idea of what they think happened, or what they think Michael was like, or what illness he did or did not have and make their posts accordingly.

Lupus is one such thing, yet one poster here will come in and say each time that he did have that and can prove it but won't do it now, etc. No one questions it even though it is NOT IN THE AUTOPSY.

Regarding Urinary Retention. I made a statement that he had this and a poster jumped on me stating that I was making an assumption and I should not do that. It was IN THE AUTOPSY. Yet, even though that poster was given that information, that it WAS in the autopsy, that poster continued to accuse me of making it up.

In the beginning of this story we were under the impression that Murray HID any evidence of giving Propofol in a black doctors bag in the closet. YET....on DAY #1 they found EMPTY GLASS VIAL OF PROPOFOL INJECTABLE EMULSION 1%, AND EMPTY GLASS VILE OF FLUMAZENIL INJECTION 0.5MG/ML in the room.

Had we not all questioned IF he gave Flumazenil at all? Had we not all assumed he hid all the evidence of Propofol and then later changed his mind and told police? BUT THAT IS NOW FOUND TO BE UNTRUE. He didn't hide it at all. We were just not told about it.

Other pills that were found were Flomax. He only took a few and they were for his prostate problem. Why didn't he take them? Using your 'smoking gun' addiction comments we can say that he didn't want to be addicted and knew better of them too. Now, as a medical professional I will tell you that he had a bottle of urine at his bedside which suggests to me a urinary problem along with that he had 550 in his bladder which means he had active urinary retention, YET, he didn't take the pills to fix it. What does that mean? It clearly states on the autopsy report they don't know if he was compliant with his medication.

I didn't jump to any conclusion that Murray was trying to get him addicted so he would sign a contract. You did that. What is that if it is not a theory based on information and pre judged ideas you have in your own head?

I don't like what happened here to Michael. Not at all. There is no doubt in my mind that Murray is guilty of gross negligence. This was sloppy caregiving. I have NEVER said otherwise. I have never stuck up for Murray' except on other threads where I also believe that all men should be created with dignity and respect.

Seriously look at your statement and logically put together the pieces here. Murray gave Michael PILLS to take to sleep. If he truly wanted to ensure that Michael would be dependent on him, he would have given Propofol each and every night along with the other medications. This didn't happen.

There are also no prescriptions for sleeping pills given. That leads me to believe Michael did not want to take them or no one prescribed them, but giving his long history of insomnia, he likely tried them and they didn't work.

I am not saying we don't have pre conceived ideas of what we think may have happened here. This is normal and we all have our own thought process, but to jump to the conclusion that Murray was trying to get Michael addicted to medications is a conclusion based on your own ideas and thoughts.

You already stated reasons why Michael might not have taken the medications and that is 'guessing' at the reason.

I did the same thing with the paranoid/delusional comments and I should not have. I did so because I was reading up on all the medications prescribed knowing he took them at some point and then knowing that he made some statements about people trying to kill him and such. I should not have said that because I don't know if it was because of the medicines either....but I DID see it as a side effect of some of them.

So, we are all guilty to some extent of adding our own thoughts to the investigation. I apologize for my comments regarding the paranoid/delusional behavior. They were my own thoughts and ideas.

 

[xthunderx2]

yes we would , hair growth 1- 1.5 cm each month , MJ was taking benzos but not regularly .If he was addicted to them , the amounts would have been much higher.

Murray prescribed to him temazepam one of the most highly addictive benzos in december but MJ did not take all the pills . I can't understand how a doctor would treat a patient suffering from severe insomnia that lasted YEARS with temazepam .

then MJ got clonazepam from Dr. Metzeger in April, clonazepam is a benzo that takes THREE YEARS to build a tolerance and is prescribed to people with severe insomnia like MJ but it also did not work . MJ did not take all the pills , so he at somepoint felt it was not working so why even bother .


after ten days of Metzeger prescribing clonazepam , Murray prescribed lorazepam , again ONE of the most highly addictive benzos out there , MJ did not take all the pills so it seems he felt either it was not working , or it was not good for him and that's may explain why he seemed "out of it" sometimes . Lorazepam and sophisticated dance steps :smilerolleyes:

then five days before MJ's death Murray prescribed to him diazepam , only three tablets were missing .

I wonder if the hair samples were kept back from tox results for a reason...maybe submitted into evidence???....because hair tox I believe is part of a normal autopsy....they just were not made public.

 

[Soundmind]

In the beginning of this story we were under the impression that Murray HID any evidence of giving Propofol in a black doctors bag in the closet. YET....on DAY #1 they found EMPTY GLASS VIAL OF PROPOFOL INJECTABLE EMULSION 1%, AND EMPTY GLASS VILE OF FLUMAZENIL INJECTION 0.5MG/ML in the room.

they said they found it on 26,6,2009 . so not the first day .

Seriously look at your statement and logically put together the pieces here. Murray gave Michael PILLS to take to sleep. If he truly wanted to ensure that Michael would be dependent on him, he would have given Propofol each and every night along with the other medications. This didn't happen.

If he had given them before MJ would have been dead long before 25,6,2009.

 

[bouee]

What exactly will hair tox result show ??? I assume from what I read here that they can trace what was in his system for a month and a half ?

 

[bouee]

About giving lozarepam iv without Michael's knowledge, does lozarepam look the same as propofol or midazolam ?

 

[Phereinice]

Couldn't these benzos somehow anihilate each other effect if mixed and taken in one night? NOT TO MENTION THE FATAL MIX (lorazepam propofol)

 

[Beachlover]

then murray gave it to him without his knowledge via an IV , and the first day he gave it he ended up killing him , and he did not give it alone , he gave it PLUS PROPOFOL .

These benzos were not a good replacement , he was hooking MJ on benzos , and it seems from the amounts taken MJ was trying to avoid being hooked on anything addictive , but Murray was prescribing to him more benzos , it seems he even started to give it to him via an IV without his knowledge . we all asked this question when lorazepam appeared as a contributing factor and when he said he was giving it through an IV , why would you set up an IV in the first place to give lorazepam if you can give it orally , and since orally MJ was not taking it , why would you push it into his IV knowing he was suffering from SEVERE long time insomnia and within a week he would become ADDICTED to it . He was CREATING A HUGE PROBLEM for MJ , and he knew exactly what was he doing .

Murrray was desperate to go to London , and he deliberately wanted MJ to SUFFER More SO HIS CONTRACT WOULD BE SIGNED , did anyone ask himself why his contract was not signed even TWO MONTHS after he started working for MJ ? The guy originally asked FOR FIVE MILLIONS , and all he was doing was giving MJ ephedrine THAT INCREASED HIS INSOMNIA PROBLEM , and trying to hook him on very very ADDICTIVE DRUGS . He is a criminal .

Most of this post is based on your own thoughts and ideas and conclusions you have come to on your own. Where is it a FACT that he gave this without Michaels knowledge. You tell me to stick to facts.

Then you state that all he was doing was giving MJ ephedrine. What do you base that on?

 

[xthunderx2]

I was jsut reading that as far as blood and urine samples are concerned that they can only tell you what the person was using 1 or 2 days prior...but....hair samples can be used to determine what someone was using or wasn't using and they can be examined again and again...urine and blood samples are sometimes inaccurate
http://www.essortment.com/all/whatishairana_rsfz.htm

 

[Soundmind]

Most of this post is based on your own thoughts and ideas and conclusions you have come to on your own. Where is it a FACT that he gave this without Michaels knowledge. You tell me to stick to facts.

Then you state that all he was doing was giving MJ ephedrine. What do you base that on?

I was replying to your own theory by a theory . You said he was weaning mj off propofol , I said it seems he was hooking him on benzos .

ephedrine was detected in MJ's system was found at the house , and the investigators were looking for it and even seized a similar drug from his office in Houston . Now you want to say it was not murray who gave it ?

You started it by saying he did not want to use propofol , I said he used it , and he lied about lorazepam .

 

[Beachlover]

they said they found it on 26,6,2009 . so not the first day .

If he had given them before MJ would have been dead long before 25,6,2009.

If you read the first pages of the report where it says

EVIDENCE:
I collected evidence from the decedent's residence on 6/25/09, see for 3A for details.


On form 3A on the bottom where it lists PARAPHERNALIA DESCRIPTION it says EMPTY GLASS VIAL OF PROPOFOL INJECTABLE EMULSION 1% AND EMPTY GLASS VILE OF FLUMAZENIL INJECTION 05MG/ML.

 

[Beachlover]

I was replying to your own theory by a theory . You said he was weaning mj off propofol , I said it seems he was hooking him on benzos .

ephedrine was detected in MJ's system was found at the house , and the investigators were looking for it and even seiaze a similar drug from his office in Houston . Now you want to say it was not murray who gave it ?

You started it by saying he did not want to use propofol , I said he used it , and he lied about lorazepam .

Ok. Clearly here is the misunderstanding. MURRAY STATED he was weaning MJ off the Propofol. I have no idea WTF he was thinking. I read from the search warrants that Murray stated this was the case.

Regarding the Ephedrine, that is a stretch because Ephedrine can be obtained anywhere, honestly. There were no bottles found on MJ's bedside with that drug and the only connection currently to Murray was that it was found in HIS medical bag but that was a combination pill and they did not find the Aspirin on the tox.

 

[Soundmind]

If you read the first pages of the report where it says

EVIDENCE:
I collected evidence from the decedent's residence on 6/25/09, see for 3A for details.


On form 3A on the bottom where it lists PARAPHERNALIA DESCRIPTION it says EMPTY GLASS VIAL OF PROPOFOL INJECTABLE EMULSION 1% AND EMPTY GLASS VILE OF FLUMAZENIL INJECTION 05MG/ML.

yeah true , but the syringe he used was hidden , it was collected the next day , and the IV system was also hidden and found in his bag which was in another room .
so he cleaned the scene and attempted to hide the evidence .

 

[angelofhope]

i'm afraid my understanding of this complex case is not as good as you guys-but the thing that jumps out at me is Why give Lorazepam via an I.V? it just seems fishy to me.

 

[angelofhope]

btw the way so I can be clear in my mind/thinking can someone give a clear breakdown of what medicines we think Michael took and for what? thanks alot.

 

[Soundmind]

Ok. Clearly here is the misunderstanding. MURRAY STATED he was weaning MJ off the Propofol. I have no idea WTF he was thinking. I read from the search warrants that Murray stated this was the case.

Regarding the Ephedrine, that is a stretch because Ephedrine can be obtained anywhere, honestly. There were no bottles found on MJ's bedside with that drug and the only connection currently to Murray was that it was found in HIS medical bag but that was a combination pill and they did not find the Aspirin on the tox.

His plan was to not use Propofol at all I think. Lorazepam/Ativan has other properties besides just sedation. So does Klonazepam which was prescribed and not shown on tox

You did side with him , eventhough you know he lied about lorazepam .

 

[daisy]

About giving lozarepam iv without Michael's knowledge, does lozarepam look the same as propofol or midazolam ?

propofol is WHITE ("milk") lorazepam is transparent.

 

[bouee]

Re: Detailed analysis of the information given in the autopsy report compared to other statements/in

From the search warrants :

1 30 am Diazepam 10 mg

2 00 am Lorazepam 2 mg IV

3 00 am Midozalam 2mg IV

5 00 am Lorazepam 2mg IV

7h30 Midazolam 2 mg

10h40 Propofol 25 mg

10h50 Murray goes to bathroom

10h52 Murray finds MJ not breathing , begins CPR, calls Michael Amir but no one comes, stops CPR to run downstairs to the kitchen and asks the chef to send Prince upstairs. Goes back upstairs, Prince comes, calls security, Alberto Alvzarez calls 911.

11h18 to 12h05 Murray makes 3 phonecalls (from 11h18 to 12h05 there are 47 mn, so according to this he was on the phone non stop)

12h22 : LAFD respond to emergency call

EDIT :::
14h26 : MJ is pronounced, Murray assists in informing the family, refuses to sign death certificate.

when LAPD detectives arrive at the UCLA, they say that neither the coroner's detectives nor LAPD detectives could locate Murray.

27th june : LAPD meet Murray and his lawyers.

 

[Beachlover]

About giving lozarepam iv without Michael's knowledge, does lozarepam look the same as propofol or midazolam ?

Midazolam is a clear fluid.

 

[Soundmind]

Ok. Clearly here is the misunderstanding. MURRAY STATED he was weaning MJ off the Propofol. I have no idea WTF he was thinking. I read from the search warrants that Murray stated this was the case.

Regarding the Ephedrine, that is a stretch because Ephedrine can be obtained anywhere, honestly. There were no bottles found on MJ's bedside with that drug and the only connection currently to Murray was that it was found in HIS medical bag but that was a combination pill and they did not find the Aspirin on the tox.

It only means aspirin left his system faster than ephedrine , hair sample toxicology exam would tell whether there was aspirin in his system or not . Nevertheless, the police did believe it came from him and they did seize similar drug from his clinic in Houston .

and I still insist that there was a very valid reason why his contract was not signed by MJ or AEG , at that point Murray did not guarantee he was going to London with MJ , and from everything we heard AEG were not so fond of him , we have to hear others testimony regarding how MJ really thought of him , I'm beginning to doubt MJ wanted his services anymore , or was planning to take him to London . You don't need two months to sign a piece of paper .

This is not in support of any conspiracy theory , this is still Murray working on his own , these are my believes , I believe Murray was scarred he was not going to get $ 150.000 a month and he was in desperate need of that money and was trying to create a problem for MJ so his 'services' would be needed . MY OWN OPINION .

 

[bouee]

Re: Detailed analysis of the information given in the autopsy report compared to other statements/in

From coroner's report dated 26th june (some of it based on conversation with LAPD detective)

based on conversation with LAPD detective :
around 1am michael calls Dr Murray, complaining about dehydratation and not being able to sleep.

Murray provided medical care, the details of which are unknown at that time.

Michael slept several hours, Murray at bedside.

12h00 Murray found MJ not breathing, pulled him on the floor and began CPR. 911 was called.

based on medical records
12h26 : paramedics arrive at home, Michael was asystolic (heart not beating)


direct testimony :
17h20 : coroner's investigator arrives at the UCLA

1910 : coroner's investigator arrives at MJ's house