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Debates with the public

I don't think these people really counted on the fact that we would have counter arguments instead of just saying that we didn't think he did anything. I think some people expect all fans to be blind, starry eyed and naive but when you're not some of them don't know what to say anymore.

One of the haters liked the "child molester" comment. The guy who liked that comment was pretty vocal earlier in the thread but offered no refutation when I challenged him on his comment about MJ being a predator "without a shadow of a doubt". Maybe he didn't bother reading it, maybe he doesn't know how to offer a rebuttal or can't be bothered.

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I very much appreciate that video, I knew I'd heard about MJ sharing a bed with an adult male as a kid but didn't want to mention it on the facebook post until I had a source.
 
I've also heard people make this argument many times

''A child would never lie about that sort of thing''
 
I remember the McMartin case. That was the reason why Wes Craven got rid of his original idea to make Freddy Krueger a child molester
 
It's naive of people to think that children won't lie about things like this. Children and teenagers can be and are manipulated by other people into lying, and sometimes they'll even do it without coaching. I haven't told many people about this but it's relevant to the claim that children don't lie. When I was about 7 years old, I was out the front of my school waiting for my mother to pick me up at the end of the day. My friend's grandparents pulled to collect my friend, and to this day I have no idea why, but I told them that a man had just tried to grab me and take me with him.

As soon as I said it I was confused about why I'd told this story and where it had come from. My friend's grandmother told me to tell my mother when she came to get me so I did. I knew that it was likely that my friend's grandmother would call my mother at some stage to ask her about it so I felt like I had no way out because I was scared of coming clean and getting in trouble. My Mother drove me home a different way from usual and was talking about calling the police when we got home. I started getting really scared at that point, but was still too scared to come clean. She asked me if I was telling the truth in the car and I said yes. I was asked what the man looked like and I said he was wearing a mask so I wouldn't have to give a description.

When we got home my mother told my stepfather about what I'd claimed and they talked. I was never a very good liar, so my mother confronted me and asked me again if my story was true. I confessed that it wasn't, she asked me if anyone had grabbed me at all and I said a grade 6 had grabbed me for April fools day. That was also a lie, but she didn't press me on that, she got very angry and yelled and told me never to do that again, and I didn't. I lied about the grade 6 grabbing me because I thought it would be better than admitting that none of it was true at all and I thought I'd get in even more trouble. I still don't know why I made the claim, it came out of thin air and once it came out of my mouth it was hard to take back.

If I as a 7 year old could fabricate a serious claim of that nature all on my own for no reason, it shouldn't be difficult for people to believe that a child could lie about sexual abuse when they're being coached by parents and law enforcement. Adults also lie, I knew an adult man who lied to me and the world about having cancer for two years, and then there's Tania Head who lied about being a 9/11 survivor. When people haven't experienced serious deception first hand, I think it can sometimes make them naive to the fact that serious lies happen.
 
And sometimes kids lie for attention-and pick up stuff they see on TV. Back in the early sixties-on my first day of kindergarten-I was absolutely terrified of everybody. The kids, teachers, everybody. And they were going around the table and we had to say something interesting about our parents. And I said "my daddy drinks beer."
Well, to this day, I don't know where that came from-I had never even seen a beer in real life. It turned out one of the kids at the table was the grandson of the Methodist minister and my parents got a call that night-I guess they thought my dad was an alcoholic and maybe beating us or something-I have no idea.
And when my parents confronted me, I just remember bawling and saying I didn't know why I said it. I still don't-
All I can think of is that I wanted to be liked and to be special and it was the best I could come up with.


(All kids aren't as honest as us when confronted-and that's why sometimes it turns into a bigger and bigger lie and you can't stop it)
 
Don't wanna derail the thread or anything, but since people are sharing stories about lying as kids, I have a similar one. When I was five, I wandered off alone down to the park in my neighborhood. I found a lady there, whom I didn't know. I told her that both of my parents were dead and then she called the police. Luckily my mom was able to sort things out, so I wasn't taken into custody or something. To this day I have no idea why I would say such a thing. The only thing I could come up with is my brother had recently been born at the time and I really didn't want to have a younger brother, so maybe I was mad lol.

But that just shows that yeah, kids can lie (and I was never a big liar either, I can't say the same for my brother lol), and they don't even have to be coerced to do it. Sometimes it's not intentional either, but then other times it is.
 
I don't consider this to be derailing the thread, all these stories are very relevant since the topic is about debating members of the public who don't think these kids lied. I think children are underestimated, they can be smarter than people give them credit for and can lie just like anyone else. When I was a I was diagnosed with 3 neurological disorders and shortly after that I was sent to a child mental health service for assessment. They watched me draw and play with toys and asked questions.

Even though I was only about 7-8 years old I had a good idea of what was going on. I'd drawn a picture of my family out in town with ice creams. I drew my stepfather's ice cream in mid-air. The person asked me about it and I said he'd dropped his ice cream. When they asked why I knew they already knew that it was because I didn't like my stepfather, what I didn't know back then as a kid is that they can't just ask you that without you leading them to that conclusion, they aren't supposed to jump to conclusions so at the time I was frustrated about why they didn't just ask me why I didn't like him. I didn't like him because he was mentally and emotionally abusive.

Another time when I was there they got me to play with toys from their toy box. I'd picked out a lion to play with because that was my favourite animal at the time. I didn't play with the toys the way I usually would, usually I'd have the animals mating which may have suspected them to suspect abuse. I was never sexually abused but I did become sexually aware pretty young. Again, I knew that these people would ask questions if I played with the toys that way so I didn't. If I could have those things by age 7-8 without anyone's help why couldn't other children show similar understanding?
 
People forget that none of the so called victims were "children" when their allegations came. Wade claims he was 7 but he made those claims when he was 31, Gavin was 13, Jordan was 13. I wouldn't put them in the same category of a 4 years old, whose ability to lie is not great. I wouldn't put them in the same category of a 9 years old either. Teenagers are very able to tell a lie, they are very able to do horrific things such as stealing, bullying and even raping and killing - Do people seriously think they are unable to lie?

Also don't forget some parents don't see lying as a bad treat (except for lying to them) and can very well encourage their children to lie. We know for a fact Janet Arvizo encouraged her children to lie before.
 
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Agreed.Also 13-year-olds are well capable of understanding what a couple of million dollars could mean for their family and for their future. And Gavin was caught stealing from a mall at the age of 9 and then lie on the stand in that case. What makes anyone think he would not be able to lie at 13 and on?
 
analogue said:
I've also heard people make this argument many times

''A child would never lie about that sort of thing''
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hahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!! the first thing they taught us when i was doing my schooling in social work with children and youth was KIDS LIE. no one wants to talk about it because we (social workers) are supposed to be their advocates first and foremost however there are so many false accusations against workers that we actually have to be trained on the topic.
 
analogue said:
I've also heard people make this argument many times

''A child would never lie about that sort of thing''
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Next time you come across that kind of argument, do a search in the internet with key words" innocent man released from jail false molestation charges" or use the links below:

http://rt.com/usa/man-years-montgomery-coast-450/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/man-prison-19-years-freed-claim-recanted-27066854?singlePage=true

It happens, and someday those people who says "child never lies" could face jail time because some child lied about them.
 
metermaid said:
hahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!! the first thing they taught us when i was doing my schooling in social work with children and youth was KIDS LIE. no one wants to talk about it because we (social workers) are supposed to be their advocates first and foremost however there are so many false accusations against workers that we actually have to be trained on the topic.
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It's pretty sad that this has to be addressed,if they lie often enough that social workers have to be warned and prepped for it then there's probably a fair bit of it. There seem to be a lot of different reasons why kids or teenagers will lie.

Bubs said:
Next time you come across that kind of argument, do a search in the internet with key words" innocent man released from jail false molestation charges" or use the links below:

http://rt.com/usa/man-years-montgomery-coast-450/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/man-prison-19-years-freed-claim-recanted-27066854?singlePage=true

It happens, and someday those people who says "child never lies" could face jail time because some child lied about them.
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I read those articles and they made me angry. The last one especially. An 11 year old girl says in court that a man molested her. There's no corroborating evidence for that claim but he gets convicted anyway based only on the word of ONE person. That's beyond wrong and it's extremely disturbing, I believe this is a good example of people's emotions getting the better of them and convicting based mostly on that rather than on something more substantial. You can never give back the years a person lost in prison and you can't undo the damage done to them emotionally and mentally. Even with convictions vacated there will still be people who look at them sideways, their lives will never be the same again and I hate that.
 
The whole ''precious innocence of a child'' is a load of B.S. Children are people to, and they can lie just like any adult can.
 
Exactly! Children are smaller and younger versions of adults after all, they're not a different species with no concept or understanding of anything. They lie to get themselves out of trouble, to get what they want or because they're being coached, maybe other reasons too, the same reasons as adults.
 
I think the whole idea is "children do not lie about these kind of things". The idea behind it is that a child would not know enough about sex to make up such a thing if he or she did not experience it. That could be true (until a certain age at least), but this view conveniently ignores all other elements - like often other adults may influence and assist a child in making up such claims. For example when a sex abuse claim is made in a custody battle and a mother coaches her child to make up such allegations against the father. Or what you have seen in the Witch Hunt documentary where over-zealous prosecutors fed the children with what they wanted to hear from them. Or when in the McMartin case therapists did the same. Or like MJ's case where there is a strong monetary motive behind all of these claims and first there was a strong monetary motive by the parents and then suddenly their children start to make such allegations. And in this case these were not small children either - these were children capable of understanding both sex and money. (And it was ridiculous when the prosecution tried to portray the Arvizo boys as little naive kids totally clueless about sex.)

Of course, when a child makes such an allegation it has to be taken seriously. But you have to check out all the other circumstances surrounding the case. Only then you will be able to tell wether that particular child would be able to lie about it or not. Each case has to be checked out individually, never make judgement based on generalizations.

There is another variation of this fallacy, which goes like "men and boys do not lie about such things". This is something that Clemente also said, but it's another ridiculous fallacy. I guess the idea is that men and boys would not admit to being in any type of sexual contact with another man out of shame or out of fear of being called gay etc. But I'm pretty sure there are enough man who would readily take that "shame" upon them for a couple of million dollars, so why would they not lie about it? For example, Daniel Kapon and Joseph Bartucci made such allegations against MJ and as if it turned out they never even met him. That shows you right there that this thing about men not lying about such things is absolutely untrue. People are willing to go all kind of lows for money.
 
Undeniable children can come up with serious lies on their own to have attention, getting out of trouble or psychological issues but in the witch hunt against Michael we saw the gross and improper questioning the police did to Corey Feldman. He was telling the name of the one who molested him and they didn't care at all, they insisted Michael did something improper with him even though he repeatedly asserted nothing ever happened. The same methods of coertion were done on Jason Francia but he fell on the tramp. Evan also coerced Jordan to "confess."
 
Like if one of MJ's accusers was a girl Clemente would have said "oh ok, girls CAN lie." it's just another part of his propaganda, filling people's heads with things that sound plausible: "children don't lie", "boys won't lie about being abused by a man", "MJ was a preferential pedophile". He's not actually basing this stuff on facts or real statistics. Like, is there real statistic data that says boys are not going to lie about sexual abuse (more than girls???) because they are ashamed? Or is it just that boys are generally more ashamed of being sexually abused by a male offender he just 'assumes' (states) that boys wouldn't lie about being abused by a man?
 
Just another proof that some of these therapists will say for whatever crap they are paid to say. Latest about Stan Katz (the same therapist who evaluated Jordan Chandler and Gavin Arvizo and testified for the prosecution in 2005).

 
People like Katz shouldn't be allowed to testify in child sexual abuse cases. What he said about the girl putting as an excuse her low IQ to not remember the abuse is disgusting and insulting. Glad the jury didn't fell for it and awarded the child even more what she asked for. Fuk you Stan Katz indeed! :flip:
 
I mean, I understand specialists are paid to testify in favor of whoever hires them but when they use means such as dehumanizing the real victims, blaming them and to shield themselves into unproved charlatanism to appear credible, I have problems.
 
This is happening on the Today facebook page on a post about the Thriller Live show. One of the people had claimed that MJ was "on house arrest for years" But that exchange was on a different part of the comments section and was deleted. Probably because he accuses anyone who defends MJ of being a child molester. Yep. LOL. I actually laughed when I read the house arrest claim, I thought I'd heard everything until then hahaha. My comments are next to the red. I keep a record of the debates I have with people about this, and I copied and pasted some things I've said before, I didn't see the point in rewriting it.

https://www.facebook.com/Iwakeupwit...fset=0&total_comments=101&notif_t=photo_reply

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Probably talking to much sense for him. Some people just like to bait others and see how upset they can get them, although they can't handle it when someone like you keeps their calm and hits them with facts. Name calling, insults seem to be all they have after that.
 
I like to keep my replies to these things as calm as I can, people usually see the calm person as the more credible one, especially if the person you're debating with gets angrier, that makes them look even worse lol. I find it both funny and telling that he didn't even try to rebut the information I gave him. It was pretty clear to me that he didn't understand how law works, in the conversation that was deleted he thought MJ wasn't convicted in 2005 because of settling the case. Apparently he didn't know that the civil settlement was for a different case more than 10 years earlier and that you can't settle criminal cases with money. Oops! Sometimes it makes me laugh when people get really mad because they think they're winning the argument. Um, nope. :lmao:
 
Harry Osborn said:
. On average, atheists are more intelligent than religious people, but that doesn't mean stupid atheists don't exist.
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What a load of bollocks. Please provide your evidence for the claim: "atheists are more intelligent than religious people".
 
I've come to the conclusion that the stain of the allegations will always be part of the Michael Jackson story. There's no way around it. I do not believe it has been proven true. I do not believe Michael molested children. I frankly don't care what the "haters" say. I will continue to enjoy my Michael Jackson music and video.
 
MJ Researcher: I have yet to be on any kind of forum-a news forum or YouTube, etc. where the commenters who claim Michael was a pedophile offer any kind of credible argument. They always resort to tabloid trash, lies, and name calling. You won't change them.
But you are helping all those people out there who know nothing about this and are just quietly reading the comments. You are definitely educating a lot of people and I appreciate it tremendously.
 
When I read stuff like this I hum "Tabloid Junkie" to myself and imagine myself smacking them over the head with Geraldine Hughes and Aphrodite Jones's books (which God forbid they would never read because it requires actual brain cells and would put a serious strike in their arguments based on zero facts and knowledge.)
 
barbee0715 said:
MJ Researcher: I have yet to be on any kind of forum-a news forum or YouTube, etc. where the commenters who claim Michael was a pedophile offer any kind of credible argument. They always resort to tabloid trash, lies, and name calling. You won't change them.
But you are helping all those people out there who know nothing about this and are just quietly reading the comments. You are definitely educating a lot of people and I appreciate it tremendously.
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Thank you very much, it's nice to know people appreciate it. :)

I started researching the allegations against MJ after he died, I was frequenting the main MJ facebook page where there used to be a discussion board. Fans and haters were debating about it and that's what got me interested in looking into it. One fan in particular used facts very well which I liked. I hadn't been commenting on those discussions when they first started, I was one of the quiet readers so I know that it's possible for people outside of a discussion to learn from it, sometimes the silent ones are paying the most attention. That's one of the reasons why I debate, I don't go looking for it but if a friend tags me in a discussion (which is what happened here) or someone posts on this thread I'll start talking.

Sometimes these discussions can be very stressful but then sometimes the things people say are so stupid that it becomes funny and entertaining. This took place on a post that was advertising the Thriller Live show in Australia, it had nothing to do with the accusations against MJ but every time a post that has anything to do with him comes up there's always people who have to go there lol. At least on facebook your comments don't tend to get deleted unless detractors run the particular pages you're on or the page doesn't want links in the comments. Abusive comments can also be deleted but I don't tend to engage in that behaviour because it doesn't get anybody anywhere.
 
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