Did MJ Find Love In The Dark (continued)

[Ashtanga]

I think it fits perfectly here:

Thinking about My Baby


AUG 14

Posted by Willa and Joie

Willa: As Joie mentioned last week, the idea for this blog grew out of a long series of emails we were exchanging back and forth. We were having a wonderful time sharing ideas and comparing notes about Michael Jackson’s work, and we each really enjoyed talking with someone who knew his work and cared about it as much as we did. One thing she and I discovered over the course of our emails is that we’re both fascinated by My Baby, and have been for a long time.

Joie: You all know who she is; you have heard Michael sing about her for years. She is presumably the girl of his dreams, the woman who knows him and loves him and truly cares about him. She’s also the woman who is constantly hurt time and time again by other devious, “bad girls” who throw themselves into Michael’s orbit like in “Billie Jean,” “Dirty Diana,” and “Dangerous.”

Willa: She’s a very important figure in Michael Jackson’s work, appearing on album after album, from Triumph and Thriller in the early 1980s to Invincible in 2001. And, as Joie says, she’s almost always hurt or threatened in some way. In fact, we often see her walking away in tears.

Joie: What draws my attention to her, I guess, is the fact that Michael sings about her as if she is someone who has been in his life for a long time. Even though her appearance on the songs I just mentioned – and others – is usually brief, we get the feeling that she is incredibly important to him. He loves her and he clearly wants to protect her from the ‘wicked women,’ he sings about in “Heartbreak Hotel,” (a.k.a. This Place Hotel). We see him constantly fretting over the fact that she will be hurt somehow by the “bad girls” and that they will drive her away from him.

Someone’s always tryin’
to start My Baby cryin.’
Talking, squealing, lying,
saying you just want to be startin’ somethin.’



​

It’s almost as if he’s describing a relationship that has seen its share of ups and downs. They’ve been through this sort of thing before and My Baby always ends up hurt. At least, in the early years of their relationship – in the 1980s and ’90s. But by 2001′s “Heaven Can Wait,” it’s clearly a much different relationship. Here we see that My Baby not only loves him and cares about him, but now she trusts him too; she has faith in him. Their relationship is solid and no one can come between them anymore. Together, they are a force to be reckoned with and it’s the greatest love affair either of them has ever experienced. He loves her so deeply that he doesn’t want to leave her for an instant – not even for heaven!

Oh no, can’t be without My Baby.
Won’t go, without her I’ll go crazy.
Oh no, guess Heaven will be waiting.



​

It’s really interesting to me that their union changes over time. The way he writes about her grows and matures over the years just as if it were a real relationship. We see the initial infatuation in songs like “The Way You Make Me Feel,” and “Streetwalker,” and we watch it grow and blossom in songs like “Black or White,” and “Fly Away.” And then we see the culmination of their love on the beautiful “Heaven Can Wait.”

Willa: As Joie says, in his early albums, she’s threatened by another woman. My Baby seems to be a private person who knows and cares about the protagonist, though she avoids the limelight and seems somewhat uncomfortable with his fame. He loves her and tries to protect her, but she’s repeatedly hurt by another woman who wants to push her out and take her place. This second woman doesn’t really know him or care about him, but she’s much bolder than My Baby and is actually attracted to fame, the protagonist’s fame – in fact, she’s something of an adventurer. The protagonist recognizes all that and distrusts her. Yet at the same time, he finds himself strangely drawn to this other, bolder woman.

Joie: And his relationship with this other woman is just as interesting as his relationship with My Baby. It’s almost like you can’t have one without the other. Like they are two halves of the same coin, so to speak.

Willa: I agree. The recurring conflict between these women is very interesting. There’s obviously something very important going on here – something Michael Jackson explored and wrestled with for years. I think that’s one reason I started seeing My Baby as representing more than just a romantic relationship. To me, My Baby and the other woman seem to represent his shy side versus his public side, or his private life versus his public life, with the intrusions of the media and intense public interest in him threatening to destroy his private life, just as that bold other woman threatens to drive away My Baby. Or these two women could represent his muse – the woman of myth who has quietly inspired artists’ creativity for centuries – and the audience and critics who kept demanding that he create another Thrillerand just wanted him to sing “Billie Jean” over and over again for the rest of his life. But it’s not an either/or situation. While I see these other interpretations, I still see My Baby as a woman who knows him and cares for him, and provides for him emotionally as well.

Joie: My Baby is fascinating on so many levels and when Willa and I discovered that we were both very interested in her – and her nemesis – we were really surprised. I think it was then that we really started to talk in earnest about doing a blog together because we were curious as to whether or not we were the only two people out there who had ever wondered about this particular topic. So, we intend to look at My Baby more closely in the coming weeks. Our plan is to look in depth at different songs in which she is featured and talk about what/who she is and what Michael was trying to tell us through her.

Willa: And again, our goal with this blog is to create a place where a community of people can come together and share their interpretations of Michael Jackson’s work and what it has meant to them at different times – because interpretations do evolve over time. And it’s ok if we disagree – even passionately disagree – as long as we’re respectful about it. To be honest, I disagree with myself sometimes! Sometimes I see My Baby as a person, sometimes I see her as symbolic, and lots of times I see her as both. And I love that ambiguity. To me, that’s one of the things that makes Michael Jackson’s work so rich – that it can mean so many different things at different times to different people. So let us know what you think, and what My Baby means to you. We’d love to hear from you, either here or on our Facebook page.

http://dancingwiththeelephant.wordpress.com/2011/08/14/thinking-about-my-baby/






And in the comments:

Willa and Joie | August 14, 2011 at 10:25 pm
By the time Invincible comes out, he seems to have figured out a way to keep his private life out of reach of his fame. He has the experience of two marriages, and two children whom he adores. He is now very family-oriented, and he seems to be yearning for close, trusting relationship in his life.
Exactly! I think you make a really excellent point here, Morinen! The way he writes about this fictional woman matures as he has matured.

<cite class="fn" style="background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; font-style: italic; font-weight: bold; ">Willa and Joie</cite> | August 14, 2011 at 10:19 pm
Hi Z. We&#8217;re not really talking about any real person in Michael&#8217;s life. We&#8217;re referring to the fictional woman he sings about in many of his songs, whom he often refers to as My Baby, and what this character actually represents for him.

And many other interesting comments....

:shifty:

 

[Lisha]

I think you make a really excellent point here, Morinen! The way he writes about this fictional woman matures as he has matured.

and

We&#8217;re not really talking about any real person in Michael&#8217;s life. We&#8217;re referring to the fictional woman he sings about in many of his songs, whom he often refers to as My Baby, and what this character actually represents for him.

Ash! Talk about a 'match made in heaven'...you and this Blog (and their perspective) seem made for each other!!! :lol: I guess you'll being staying glued to that blog site's forthcoming entries, huh?

*wonders if these gals ever perused our little thread here? :scratch: *




I always like the way he sings in She Drives Me Wild,

"That girl's My Baby!"

over and over again even though the lyrics support that she has no clue he considers her as such. Or that she would even be in agreement with the idea. Yet he is just so sure he'll get that girl!

"And You Know D*** Well
The Girl Will Be Mine"

I find that kinda cute. (<-- should I put a giggly smilie here...but then, come to think of it, I'd be a bit like a ... hypocrite! lol. where's SoS? *runs*)

 

[Ashtanga]

Ash! Talk about a 'match made in heaven'...you and this Blog (and their perspective) seem made for each other!!! :lol: I guess you'll being staying glued to that blog site's forthcoming entries, huh?

*wonders if these gals ever perused our little thread here? :scratch: *

:lol:


I also think we were meant for each other. :wild: Now I will not feel so alone because there are others who think like me. I need join me with these people of blog. :shifty:

I always like the way he sings in She Drives Me Wild,

"That girl's My Baby!"

over and over again even though the lyrics support that she has no clue he considers her as such. Or that she would even be in agreement with the idea. Yet he is just so sure he'll get that girl!

"And You Know D*** Well
The Girl Will Be Mine"

I find that kinda cute. (

 

[Ape]

Ashtanga that fit perfectly in here. Thank you!

 

[Lisha]

Ya know, Ash, if we think about it, there has never been any real proof that his song lyrics at anytime were about an actual living person. not that I have seen. If we just look for the concrete proof, I don't think there is any to be found.

But AllForMJ has done a very good job in here at pointing at things that I think she feels could be hints that he has been speaking about a particular girl over several songs. And as we know she took the song that is the title of this thread and also The Way You Love Me and pointed out similarities in the lyrics. But who can say that is concrete proof? I would think no one. But she brought up some things i don't think many of us would have seen on our own, and that is to her credit; she really sees things well.

And SoS would often bring up that she had to admit to seeing what she referred to as "patterns" throughout his songs over the years that kinda matched things up. But could even seeing these patterns be considered concrete proof that a real woman exists for which he had in his heart over a long period of time? No, I wouldn't call that concrete proof...but interesting. Just like the things AllForMJ would point out were interesting. And the result is for many this thread became interesting! Even for you, Ash, I'll dare say. You keep coming back.

Moddie came on board in this thread and began to share her perspective which spoke often about this being a real love going on between two people that was watched over by God, making it a 'love so divine', one of MJ's own lyric phrases, which was a perspective that SoS, and AllForMJ also felt was true. God seemed to be involved. I think MP also has had that perspective, at least many of her posts brought in God and His possible hand in all of this. Ape, you too, have often given beautiful examples of what could be God's purposeful interference in this and Linda has posted some really deep posts as well that bring God into it. I feel as well, if there has been a woman MJ has loved for years and was waiting for God to bring it about, then he must have asked God for that love so divine, and tried the best he could to wait patiently for it while living out his life. To me it doesn't seem impossible that he had someone in his heart all this long time, since the early days. Amazing, but not impossible. But to you, Ash, it does.

But none of our posts could be said to have any concrete proof that a real live girl is who MJ has been singing about for years.

It's kind of like when one goes to a Sci-Fi/Fantasy film like Star Wars, and as the film begins to roll, they need to allow themselves to enter into the story and have that ol' suspension of disbelief so they can enjoy the full experience of it. A lot of viewers way back when that film first was shown initially had trouble (like the first ten minutes)me included, when we got the impressiion we were going to watch the entire film unfold through a couple of robots dialoging back and forth with affected proper English and beeps and shrills! But those two ended up being irresistable 'robots' and before long we got pulled into the wonderfully fun adventure that is Star Wars.

So to fully enjoy and appreciate what AllForMJ and others have been doing in this thread, which is "supposing" a real live "existing" female was behind some of these lyrics and that MJ felt he had no other way to get her attention but through his lyrics...well, one has to kick into that 'suspension of disbelief' to join into the fun. I think it was SoS who often said that "at the end of the day, it's not all that serious." And we have so often alluded to this thread as being a pleasant way to escape! and have some fantasy! and entertainment! and a place to get mushy! and speak all things LOVE! Also I remember MimiK once saying that "it's so hard out there" meaning that in real life, the lives we are all busy living outside of this thread, can be at times tough and disillusioning...so it's nice to have a place to hang just to put our everyday problems behind us for a bit.

But, no proof...nope, none that says without a doubt the LITD girl exists.

I guess only MJ would have known that for sure, or the few he told, if he did, and would fans even believe any of them now if they told us? I doubt it. We're all such skeptics. :lol: And it's none of our business I suppose anyway...unless for some reason MJ would have enjoyed us knowing? It's all too difficult to sort out for sure. Right, Ash?

I guess what has always been confusing for me is why anyone would want to hang around here in this thread if they didn't somewhat agree with what the topic starter has suggested, along with most of the regular posters who are on board as well? Or at least be able to think it -could- be possible. You know, for example, if someone can't get to that place of suspension of disbelief while watching Star Wars and thinks the robots are too ridiculous and unbelievable...wouldn't they just get up and leave the theater and choose not to stay watching the movie? Why stay if you can't enter in?

Maybe because here, in this LITD thread, there is more to the thread than just the main theory of the girl being an actual person and all... like the many posts sharing things about MJ (everyone's fav subject) and the frequent talk of love and romance. Could that be why?

 

[Ashtanga]

Ya know, Ash, if we think about it, there has never been any real proof that his song lyrics at anytime were about an actual living person. not that I have seen. If we just look for the concrete proof, I don't think there is any to be found.

But AllForMJ has done a very good job in here at pointing at things that I think she feels could be hints that he has been speaking about a particular girl over several songs. And as we know she took the song that is the title of this thread and also The Way You Love Me and pointed out similarities in the lyrics. But who can say that is concrete proof? I would think no one. But she brought up some things i don't think many of us would have seen on our own, and that is to her credit; she really sees things well.

And SoS would often bring up that she had to admit to seeing what she referred to as "patterns" throughout his songs over the years that kinda matched things up. But could even seeing these patterns be considered concrete proof that a real woman exists for which he had in his heart over a long period of time? No, I wouldn't call that concrete proof...but interesting. Just like the things AllForMJ would point out were interesting. And the result is for many this thread became interesting! Even for you, Ash, I'll dare say. You keep coming back.

Moddie came on board in this thread and began to share her perspective which spoke often about this being a real love going on between two people that was watched over by God, making it a 'love so divine', one of MJ's own lyric phrases, which was a perspective that SoS, and AllForMJ also felt was true. God seemed to be involved. I think MP also has had that perspective, at least many of her posts brought in God and His possible hand in all of this. Ape, you too, have often given beautiful examples of what could be God's purposeful interference in this and Linda has posted some really deep posts as well that bring God into it. I feel as well, if there has been a woman MJ has loved for years and was waiting for God to bring it about, then he must have asked God for that love so divine, and tried the best he could to wait patiently for it while living out his life. To me it doesn't seem impossible that he had someone in his heart all this long time, since the early days. Amazing, but not impossible. But to you, Ash, it does.

But none of our posts could be said to have any concrete proof that a real live girl is who MJ has been singing about for years.

It's kind of like when one goes to a Sci-Fi/Fantasy film like Star Wars, and as the film begins to roll, they need to allow themselves to enter into the story and have that ol' suspension of belief so they can enjoy the full experience of it. A lot of viewers way back when that film first was shown initially had trouble (like the first ten minutes)me included, when we got the impressiion we were going to watch the entire film unfold through a couple of robots dialoging back and forth with affected proper English and beeps and shrills! But those two ended up being irresistable 'robots' and before long we got pulled into the wonderfully fun adventure that is Star Wars.

So to fully enjoy and appreciate what AllForMJ and others have been doing in this thread, which is "supposing" a real live "existing" female was behind some of these lyrics and that MJ felt he had no other way to get her attention but through his lyrics...well, one has to kick into that 'suspension of belief' to join into the fun. I think it was SoS who often said that "at the end of the day, it's not all that serious." And we have so often alluded to this thread as being a pleasant way to escape! and have some fantasy! and entertainment! and a place to get mushy! and speak all things LOVE! Also I remember MimiK once saying that "it's so hard out there" meaning that in real life, the lives we are all busy living outside of this thread, can be at times tough and disillusioning...so it's nice to have a place to hang just to put our everyday problems behind us for a bit.

But, no proof...nope, none that says without a doubt the LITD girl exists.

I guess only MJ would have known that for sure, or the few he told, if he did, and would fans even believe any of them now if they told us? I doubt it. We're all such skeptics. :lol: And it's none of our business I suppose anyway...unless for some reason MJ would have enjoyed us knowing? It's all too difficult to sort out for sure. Right, Ash?

I guess what has always been confusing for me is why anyone would want to hang around here in this thread if they didn't somewhat agree with what the topic starter has suggested, along with most of the regular posters who are on board as well? Or at least be able to think it -could- be possible. You know, for example, if someone can't get to that place of suspension of unbelief while watching Star Wars and thinks the robots are too ridiculous and unbelievable...wouldn't they just get up and leave the theater and choose not to stay watching the movie? Why stay if you can't enter in?

Maybe because here, in this LITD thread, there is more to the thread than just the main theory of the girl being an actual person and all... like the many posts sharing things about MJ (everyone's fav subject) and the frequent talk of love and romance. Could that be why?

:fear:


Well.....

I will not say anything about "LITD girl." -_- :fear: I will just say that we really never have any concrete proof about it simply because Michael was a very private man and everything in life has always been a big mystery. Even if he were still here, obviously we would never hear it from him anything that was about his private life, much less what or who inspired him to write the lyrics to his songs. Well, he probably would just say it came from God and nothing else. I believe that much things about Michael... we do not know. We see things, we have our own opinions, speculate, and so on.... and the whole thing go their ways. But the truth/concrete proof remains a question mark.


BUT... Like you said, I keep coming back here and I really do not know why. I can not explain why I'm still here in this thread and even here in MJJC. Why, after June 25, a part of me died forever and nothing will be as before. Well, I guess I'm still in MJJC because I feel soooooooooooo much love for Michael and his art :girl_sigh: :wub: ....


And I honestly believe that Michael must have given a lot of laughs with all the things I wrote here in this thread :fear: or maybe he thinking one that I am crazy :in_love: or maybe (this is almost impossible) he has liked what I wrote here :nono: .... who knows. :thinking:

I feel very happy to know that Michael was here (thinking of pin Shirley Temple :girl_sigh: :blushing: :heart: ) and no matter what was said and the opinions of others, the most important thing is for sure that Michael had a fun time here in this thread reading everything we write and somehow we we did Michael laugh and feel happy and of course, loved by us. :heart: To me that's what matters and I can just imagine Michael on the other side smiling reading this thread. >>>

Thinking about it makes me smile FOREVER. :heart:





Sorry for the post... things came into my mind.... *big sigh*

 

[Lisha]

^ I loved your post! :hug:

I'm sure many of your posts would have made Michael smile! You have a cute way about you that is just too hard to resist! And you love so honestly and openly. And maybe if he did read this thread at all he thought all of us took a turn now and then being crazy! :wild: But he probably liked that we were having fun amidst it all. MJ was always such a lover of fun.

 

[MysteriousPhoenix]

And my favorite "My Baby" line would be ...

"...Then I'll be showin' you what otha men are suh...posed...to...do for you my baby!" (From the song "Invincible")

 

[Ashtanga]

:girl_whistle:

​

^ I loved your post! :hug:

I'm sure many of your posts would have made Michael smile! You have a cute way about you that is just too hard to resist! And you love so honestly and openly. And maybe if he did read this thread at all he thought all of us took a turn now and then being crazy! :wild: But he probably liked that we were having fun amidst it all. MJ was always such a lover of fun.

You loved my post? I was sure you would disagree with me at some point. But I know... people love the sweetness and I'm sooooooooooooo sweet :blushing: that no one can resist me. Ok.... That was just a joke. -_- :lol: But I really hope everyone likes me here. ray: :fear:

Well, thanks for your sweet words Shila. :hug: :give_heart:


You're right... And Michael loved every one of us here in this thread and appreciate all we've said here. He felt all of our love for him. :heart: When I think about the pin Shirley Temple... :girl_sigh: :heart: (Thanks dear Michael! :girl_give_heart, I see that was a way of Michael to show us explicitly that he was here watching us (and I also know that he was looking for me here. :shifty: :blushing .... :wild: He wish we had the absolute certainty that. :shifty: He could not have given a greater proof than this. :girl_in_love: It was perfect and beautiful that he did. :girl_sigh: :wub:


NOW, I know... move on........ *big sigh*

 

[MysteriousPhoenix]

... I have been sort of formulating a storyline here just in case I kick into creative gear. It's a little "otherworldly" as well. You don't think if I expend the effort to write it that I should post it here for concern of copyright issues?

Depends on whether or not you are are planning on making some Monet. lol! Well, whether you do it privately or publicly, I think you should pursue your idea!

Ash, I really enjoyed that Frank Sinatra vid you posted in the other thread, Only Have Eyes for You.

I was just listening to the Art Garfunkel version of that song. I love that song, especially The Flamingos' version. Doo wop shoo bop ...

I always like the way he sings in She Drives Me Wild,

"That girl's My Baby!"

over and over again even though the lyrics support that she has no clue he considers her as such. Or that she would even be in agreement with the idea. Yet he is just so sure he'll get that girl!

"And You Know D*** Well
The Girl Will Be Mine"

I find that kinda cute. (

 

[Ashtanga]

I was just listening to the Art Garfunkel version of that song. I love that song, especially The Flamingos' version. Doo wop shoo bop ...

:wild:

Finally, after some searching, I have finally found some concrete proof the LITD girl really does exist (see pic below for the concrete proof):

:lol:

He said that? I will have to try to look that up. Thanks!

:thinking:


Mimik? She or he? I always thought Mimik was a woman. :fear:

:shifty:

:girl_sigh: Yep ... those sure were the days!

Yes. :wub: Memorable days. I miss it. Now will be forever stored in our memory and heart. :heart:

 

[Lisha]

And maybe if he did read this thread at all he thought all of us took a turn now and then being crazy! :wild:

:wild: Who me? He probably never thought I was crazy!

Well, you were the first person that came to mind!!! :tease:

where's SoS? *runs*)

BTW, I would also be careful with the giggly smilie since SoS may give you a thousand lashes with a wet noodle should she find out!

SHE wouldn't dare!! :aggressive: :nana:

Um, come to think of it :worship:...she just might. AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh! *hides from sOs, whereEVER she may be*

Depends on whether or not you are are planning on making some Monet. lol!

No, I wasn't planning on making any Money, Monet, Rembrandt, Picasso, or Starry Starry Night off of da liddle short story for the LITD thread. :lol:

I was just listening to the Art Garfunkel version of that song. I love that song, especially The Flamingos' version. Doo wop shoo bop ...

If you're gonna shoo bop at me, you're just gonna remind me of this little number...

[youtube]4N2JFUdgVNQ[/youtube]]

Hmmm...maybe for awhile there MJ thought such things about his LITD girl, like, "How long has it been", and "it seems like a mighty long time" from when he first knew her and when she came back into his life...if she ever did. But it's niice to think that she had. Unless you're Ash. :lol: :hug:

Yeah, he is also so sure in the intro to YRMW. How is he so sure he can get that girl? lol!

I think it's called downright cockiness!!! :lol:

Or... one just deciding to strongly believe in what they felt God told them was to be.

Finally, after some searching, I have finally found some concrete proof the LITD girl really does exist (see pic below for the concrete proof):

So there we are! We got us some very solid concrete proof delivered straight from the MP...

:lol:

... Also I remember MimiK once saying that "it's so hard out there" meaning that in real life

He said that? I will have to try to look that up. Thanks!

I'll do the leg work for ya...(post #3058)

...but i know...the fun is in the continual suspense, drama, speculation, etc. not to mention talking with good friends about a very complex yet very simple person. we are, after all, only human. and i, too, love talking here. it's so difficult "out there".

And yeah, I don't think it was ever clear if MimiK was a male or a female.


:scratch:

and I'll throw in a girl sigh because that smiley is oh so cute.

:girl_sigh:

 

[Ashtanga]

Unless you're Ash. :lol: :hug:

th: >>> with L.O.V.E. :hug:

So there we are! We got us some very solid concrete proof delivered straight from the MP...

:lol:

:lol:

And yeah, I don't think it was ever clear if MimiK was a male or a female.


:scratch:

and I'll throw in a girl sigh because that smiley is oh so cute.

:girl_sigh:

 

[MysteriousPhoenix]

So there we are! We got us some very solid concrete proof delivered straight from the MP...

:lol:

:lol:

I'm glad you are all enjoying the "concrete proof." There's actually a lot out there, huh? How could we have missed what was there right before our eyes all this time?

I'll do the leg work for ya...(post #3058)


And yeah, I don't think it was ever clear if MimiK was a male or a female.


:scratch:

Why Thank You! I really miss his/her (pick one) posts. But yeah, I guess we technically don't have any concrete proof (uh oh, here we go again) to know whether or not he/she was a boy or a girl. He/she was pretty myterious.

On a side note: I guess this really has nothing to do with this thread, it's more about something personal I am going through, but perhaps you all will let me post this song expressing my feelings at the moment because afterall, I feel like we are a family, I can't really talk to anyone else about it, not to mention, it's a whole lot cheaper than therapy (ha!ha!).

 

[Ashtanga]

Hey, you stole my smiley! Just kidding! :fear:

On a side note: I guess this really has nothing to do with this thread, it's more about something personal I am going through, but perhaps you all will let me post this song expressing my feelings at the moment because afterall, I feel like we are a family, I can't really talk to anyone else about it, not to mention, it's a whole lot cheaper than therapy (ha!ha!).

Hey > :better: :hug: and :give_heart:









This song is very sad.

 

[Lisha]

On a side note: I guess this really has nothing to do with this thread, it's more about something personal I am going through, but perhaps you all will let me post this song expressing my feelings at the moment because afterall, I feel like we are a family, I can't really talk to anyone else about it, not to mention, it's a whole lot cheaper than therapy (ha!ha!).

This song COULD have something to do with this thread if we consider how many years MJ had to wait for love, if he did indeed find it towards the end of his life, which means he had to wait for it till he reached his fifties. That's quite a wait! And if the LITD girl, like Moddie suggested in a post long ago, that the LITD girl is probably around MJ's age...then she had quite a wait as well! So perhaps they both asked this same question (that you now are asking in regards to yourself) "When will i be loved?!!!"

And it seems you can empathize with them... awww, MP, please keep trusting God, the source of all Love. Everyday is a new day, and His mercies are new every morning. My motto of late is definitely "I'm takin' it one day at a time." Luv ya, MP. :better:

You all know I have been "revisiting' the thread and I found some nice posts, practically back to back, by AllForMJ and SoS, from back in Nov. 2009. Take a look...

And let's not try to convince ourselves that MJ is someone that could never have found love, because he was a God-fearing man and with God all things are possible. To say that MJ finding love was only a part of his imagination is like trying to set a limit on God's abilities.

Additionally, we have to listen to what MJ said in the song titled "They Don't Care About Us." There are two things to pay close attention to. One thing he said in this song is, "I'm tired of being the victim of hate." And the other thing he said is "I look to Heaven to fulfill its prophecy. Set me free."

If we look back at what took place in MJ's life before he died, we will see that he was definitely set free. The trial is proof of this. And, he was no longer saying things about feeling hated anymore. The main thing we started to hear him singing about was being in love. This shows that love had come into his life and was combating the feeling of hate. Love conquers hate. Love reverses hate. All know that love is the opposite of hate.

Rather than trying to bat down the idea of him being in love, and rather than trying to ignore the signs of him being in love and the beauty of it, we should instead be happy for him and thankful that he received what he needed in time.
:yes:

and

On this board, and especially this thread, its only ALL about L.O.V.E. expressed in different ways from different perspectives.

Keep it going.

Don't stop til you get enough, and with L.O.V.E. that can never happen.

...I believe that AllforMJ gets frustrated when people seem to act like they don't get her main point, which is that MJ was in love as he told us himself from his own selection and creation of his own music for his own albums. It is debated about This Is It in some circles, and I personally do not go along with the explanation offerred the world by Sony because it doens't make sense but people do not ask questions and accept whatever comes over the wire. People spend hours in conference rooms trying to come up with just what to tell the public, even if there was a reason directly from MJ himself, so I'm just saying, AllforMJ is asking us to let Michael "speak for himself" through his music. I feel for that point to be acknowledged would be helpful for anyone posting in the thread because when it is not, it is a wee bit off topic imho.

The question is Did MJ Find Love In The Dark. The song that originally started the discussion back in '07 was Someone In The Dark, where MJ is singing about a friend, a "Ben" type friend, who started out as a stranger who was an answer to a prayer, which kept him going through all the years of difficulty, all the lonliness, the vitiligo, the many pressures brought to him by his astronomical success. He made songs that indicated that "she" had connected with that lonliness and he ended up feeling abandoned by her and he didn't know why she "left". He later realized he was not alone and that "she" was still "with" him although they were "far apart". He felt some things were his fault so he wanted One More Chance and he got it. When he did, he realized that the person in his heart was indeed REAL.

It had been pointed out then that he placed Ben on the Number Ones CD out of sequence and the Live version, as an indication, a communication, a big hint for "her" to understand that is was "her" that One More Chance was about or at least it was what I noticed.

The answer to Did MJFLITD was answered over and over as many songs were examined.

...Its great because at the end of the day it all boils down to El Oh Vee Eeeeeee :heart:

If we could all simply give some praises to a thing called LOVE we will all be alright. Just say yes, I acknowledge love ... and all will be continually well. jmho

EDIT: Oh, here's another one by SoS that shortly followed the others:

Well, we have all gone back and forth as we have examined things related to this topic. I believe the first person to introduce the aspect of the "muse" was yours truly and it was because one day I realized that is what "she" was, and I say that with full understanding also that "she" was/is also, REAL.

Its just that by her not being THERE with him, the easy explanation for myself was that she was a real person whom MJ "met" in some form or fashion at some point in time, who he did not see again, he "searched the whole world wishing she'll be there time after time" and he nevertheless kept singing about "her". Something seems to have happened (songs on Dangerous) and he experienced "her" in a different way.

When I say muse, I don't mean exclusive to the fact of her existence, and I don't mean someone he made up, not at all. I just mean someone he was for some reason inspired by, to sing to/about, and who was embedded deeply in his heart through all of what the public witnessed him going through, without "her" being anywhere in sight, until a certain point came where "she" became more REAL to him, whether that's because they corresponded via internet, he got photos of her, he made it his business to go "hangin around" her or whatever.

EDIT #2: Here's another good one. I'm on a roll here. lol. It's by Moddie, and it is a nice romantic perspective:

Ok Victoria83, here's the second part. I only wanted to briefly address "faithfulness" from the post of yours, I had originally responded to.

I think you said something about men and women viewing faithfulness differently? Yes, many people may agree with that but I am not so sure Michael and his lady love were on different pages with this. In the updated song "For all time", that was added to T25( for her), what did he tell us that gives us a glimpse into the fact of both of them wanting the same thing(s) at the same time? When he sings, "When two heart's belong so well". This mean, Michael has reason to believe they are in synch with one another and have become "One" whole and complete. She had to have done things and said things to him that showed him and inspired him to believe and be faithful in the knowledge of knowing they "belonged" together.

There are many songs lyrics and even some of his own poetry that reveal how faithful he was in knowing she would one day return to him....

Many songs suggests, he had faith in knowing she would hear his messages in songs....

Many songs tell us, how faithful he was in knowing even though time and space stood between them for many years, their love would withstand the test of time....

Many songs reveal his faithfulness in believing he had to give this to God and allow a higher being to step in and give guidance and direction...

Many songs reveal his faithfulness in his spiritual committment to her...

Some songs indicate he may not have always remained physically faithful during their long period(s) of separation but in alot of those same songs, he still would make time to sing about his heart and soul remaining faithfully-hers...

~ It's really enjoyable to go back and read some of these really good posts. So many of them I have come across!

 

[MysteriousPhoenix]

This song COULD have something to do with this thread if we consider how many years MJ had to wait for love, if he did indeed find it towards the end of his life, which means he had to wait for it till he reached his fifties. That's quite a wait! And if the LITD girl, like Moddie suggested in a post long ago, that the LITD girl is probably around MJ's age...then she had quite a wait as well! So perhaps they both asked this same question (that you now are asking in regards to yourself) "When will i be loved?!!!"

You are correct. This song could fit this thread. They may have both felt cheated, mistreated, etc. and the long wait could have made them ask "when oh when."

And it seems you can empathize with them... awww, MP, please keep trusting God, the source of all Love. Everyday is a new day, and His mercies are new every morning. My motto of late is definitely "I'm takin' it one day at a time." Luv ya, MP. :better:

You are correct yet again. These past so many years have caused me to see the worst in people, but God has always been faithful and sent His people my way also. I think MJ was quoted as saying something similar in one of the other threads here. He said something along the lines of during the trial he saw how evil people could be, but he also saw how loving they can be as well. I guess we tend to focus on the bad more often because it hurts so much. I've always liked that motto of taking "one day at a time." Sometimes I have to take things one hour at a time.

You all know I have been "revisiting' the thread and I found some nice posts, practically back to back, by AllForMJ and SoS, from back in Nov. 2009. Take a look...



and



EDIT: Oh, here's another one by SoS that shortly followed the others:



EDIT #2: Here's another good one. I'm on a roll here. lol. It's by Moddie, and it is a nice romantic perspective:



~ It's really enjoyable to go back and read some of these really good posts. So many of them I have come across!

Thanks for posting these. They really lifted my spirit. You make me wanna post some "oldies, but goodies" too! I especially like the one by SoS about the "muse" and her inspiring his music, but being REAL at the same time. Can I use that quote as my siggy? haha!

And...I agree with AllForMJ on her rationalization that we shouldn't find it so hard to believe that MJ could've found love - real love, and not just something made up from his imagination when we all know very well that all/anything is possible with God. I can't see God not sending someone as deep and loving as MJ a real person to love and be loved by and just allowed him to sing for decades about an imaginary person. That to me just sounds so shallow and hollow. God is all about being deep and keeping things REAL! That is just how He rolls! lol!

Also ...

These quotes kinda remind me of this song (I wouldn't mind this song being the theme song for this thread):





Edit: I just discovered that the tagline for the movie Sleepless in Seattle, which this is a clip from, is:

"What if someone you never met, someone you never saw, someone you never knew was the only someone for you?"

Isn't that somethin'?

 

[Ape]

I think that's what I've been missing lately, and maybe some of you have as well.... the happy ending. So many tragedies in real life and fiction, I just crave seeing the happy. Even in someone elses life, I want to see more happiness. It is just too much to be surrounded by sorrow and pain and suffering and tragic loss or loss of the possibility for the happy ending. For me, I think that is the most difficult to think of regarding June 25th is the ending before it's truly begun. This is assumption on my part but if what we talked about in here were true, and it is also true that he has died, then it's so terribly sad that someone who deserved so much love and deserved to feel that special love from just one person whom he felt the same for, could die before it became everything it should have been. I know he had his children, and he did have special friends whom he loved and they loved him, but what if he didn't get the chance to be with the one who could make all the pain meaningless and minuscule compared to the love that could permeate every aspect of his life. This is not to discount the love he would feel from his children or friends, but sometimes it is lonely without that other part of you to share your life with despite having wonderful people in your life who you do love but in a different way. It's just lacking. It's tough doing this world alone without that specific special someone.

I'm just tired of tragedies. I know this is getting too personal, but it tears me up to know that my dad died alone. The love of his life from the time he was a teenager till death at 58 was my mom, and they hadn't been together for the last 30 years but still he thought about her and loved her. He never fully moved on and that hurts to think of. Does life have to be so sorrowful? Where are the happily ever after love stories? The TRUE stories? I need to see that. The love that lasts and works and survives. Where two people live as one. Not selfish but for each other. Caring for each other not out of duty but out of love. It was all so possible in my head as a young lady, but I don't see it happening. I don't think I know of one couple who lives this way. So are my ideals too high and unrealistic, or am I just not looking in the right places? How hard does it have to be to find two people still in love after 30,40,50, + years of marriage? Two who are both dedicated to each other, who aren't looking for the next because they just know that there will never be another who could even come close to the one they love so it doesn't even cross their minds. Two people who thank God every day for each other because they know they are so blessed to have each other and know that there isn't anything that could possible come between them because their hearts are grafted together and now beat as one and so it would be as possible to rip them apart as it would be to split each one in two.

I just watched a sad sort of love story... forgive me.

Also.. MP I really like that song. I sang along to it earlier when I read it here. Reminds me of when I was a kid. Good song. Sorry you've felt that way. I hope things go better for you soon.

 

[DWsoul]

Hello I hope I am not interrupting this thread or anything. I am *ahem* new here so please forgive me for not keeping up. Read through a bit of this though and it sounds like you all are reminiscing from some historical posts/members/theories, etc. Far be it from me to intrude, though. Stumbled upon this thread as I was browsing the forum (after all, you can't miss it, it's like, RIGHT there), so I swung on in and decided to say hello. Maybe...we'll get to know each other a little and share insights?

 

[Ape]

That sounds nice. I don't know what we are doing in here..lol. It's just a place we are allowed to be as romantic as we feel like and hang out and all that. This thread changes day by day, post by post. You aren't interrupting anything It's nice when new people come around and speak up. I was just feeling emotional last post. Thinking about everything (Michael related and not).

Please share your thoughts. Anything you feel like talking about. We have all views in here from him being with someone for years to being with no one to having a muse or dream ideal woman he'd sing about. It started out looking at his lyrics and his life and various things that could be viewed from the outside, and it evolved from there with as wide a range of ideas as there are people in here (and more.. since some of us have ever changing ideas..lol).

Thanks for posting and I hope you share your thoughts. New ideas spark the place up!

 

[MysteriousPhoenix]

I'm so sorry about all of your pain, Ape. You are going through a lot. Just the death of your dad alone is overwhelming enough. I was just thinking the other day how I can go several days and be somewhat o.k. and then all of a sudden I just wanna yell, "I miss my mom!" It's so sad that your parents weren't together at the end of his life. This must be so difficult and heartbreaking for you. I know that once you are hurting over one thing it seems like everything else starts to bother you, too. It is such a sensitive and vulnerable time (when someone you love passes). I hope you take some time to just take care of yourself.

And yes, there really are some "happy endings" out there. Shila had posted one not to long ago and there are many others as well. I know you will find yours too if you just keep believing. Hang in there! We all wub you!

Also ...

Welcome DWsoul! Interesting name ya got there. Can't wait for you to share some of your "insights" with us.

 

[Lisha]

EDIT: Hi, MP, you posted your encouraging post while I was typing this loooong thing. Nice post :flowers:

Maybe...we'll get to know each other a little and share insights?

Hi there! Nice to meet you, and please do share some of your insights! I agree with Ape that "New ideas spark the place up! "

Ape, wow, that post of yours. Very deep. And I think others see things the way you do. From reviewing the thread I am aware of so many of the past posts now, and summer and others would post how they were so so sad to think that MJ did not get that Happy Ending with his "someone."

And I think it is a combination of what you were expressing. It is a little bit of, how should I say...."unrealistic idealized thinking" to believe there should and can be couples that have all that you have described...and wish for. And it is what we all would wish for...in a perfect world. And there are couples who have been married for years and still have a strong bond of love today...but I doubt their relationships are as perfect as we would want in an idealized world. Linda posted here how her parents are still together after many years, and have a really good marriage still. A totally romantic kinda relationship at all times...I kinda doubt it, or they live on this earth...but a union to be admired and respected, it would seem. Good for them! Because like you say, Ape, this is RARE!

The reason for it being rare and for us to be unrealistic to hope for all you were describing as the ideal relationship that comes ot your mind..is becuase we live in a broken world. Everything about it is broken. And that brokenness entered in whan Adam and Eve disobeyed God and sin entered in. There isn't anything that goes in in this life that you can't find signs of brokenness, beginning with people, but also the planet, the weather, animal behavior, nature, jobs, relationships, our bodies, our thinking, our understanding of things....Everything has been affected. Nothing is perfect on this earth. So it is unrealistic to think we can have something perfect, and that incudes a marriage and love with another.

Yet we yearn and there is a reason we yearn, God put that yearning in us. We want the brokenness to go away...just like you said Ape...it is so so sad, or often painful, and distructive, etc. So because that yearning canot be fulfilled here on earth we long for God and heaven where it IS fully perfect...the only place.

And while left here wiht all the brokenness, we learn to look to God to help us with the disappointments and the pain and the struggles in relationships...even if He does unite us with the mate He has designed us for. We will still need His help while workng out that relationship. Unhelpful thinkiing is that when we marry the RIGHT guy, life will be perfect and all loneliness wil completely go away. Now why would God arrange things like that...then we wouldn't look to Him anymore..we'd have it all with our man, or our woman...it's like "thanks God, I can handle it from now on...you brought me my dream guy/gal and I am SET!"

No. Now that is overly romantic, and unrealistic.

A Happy Ending? Here on earth there can be for "a time" a Happy Ending. Just like when one works really hard towards a goal, then it is acomplished and it is a major "high'...but the high doesn't last, does it? But for a time it feels WONDERFUL. And that is a blessing. Everything under God has its season, even LOVE. Even "being in Love."

So if two poeple are so fortunate...it's really a miracle, if God brings them together and they have that Happy Ending...they are still livng out their new lives together in a broken world full of evil, pain, disappointments, shortcomings, limitations, misunderstandings and miscommunications...and on and on. And these things will work hard against the couple. But if they continue to look to God for help and a team, or when God's enemy at times "sifts their relationship like wheat" and they are at ends with each other...they go to God individually and seek God to restore their relationship and love so God can heal and repair. And then God gets the glory and full gratutude when the couple are at peace with one an other again and stronger than ever.

When we are confronted with brokenness we can go to God to help us in and through it.

Never going to be a perfect story with a perfect ending, but their can still be someting beautiful made out of it by God's hand if we trust.

AllForMJ has felt that MJ did find something beautiful through God in the way he brought the LITD girl back into his life "in time.' When he needed her...and just having her around in some for was enough for him. Remember in TII..."Keeping her around, her around, keeping her around...her around." And SoS had posted something like, if MJ and this gal's connection became on of a spiritual sense...where he could "feel" her when maybe her thoughts were directed towards him, or would feel if she were praying for him, etc., then that blessed him and kept him goin'. in other words, it ws fulfilling for him at the time...'cause God always kept him so busy there, and he was super focused in all his planning and rehearsing for TII in the end.

AllForMJ stated, 'Isn't God good for bringing MJ love at the end of his life!" She keeps it positive. That is helpful. When everything around is broken, it helps to try to look at what you can find in it that is good and/or positive. Otherwise it is a downward spin to depression, negative thinking and feelings of discouragement and hopelessness.

So Ape! Be encouraged, because you are one who knows God and can go to Him so He can always be there for you when you feel discouraged in this imperfect, broken world that doesn't always deliver the happy endings you would like to see. :hug:

 

[Ashtanga]

Hello I hope I am not interrupting this thread or anything. I am *ahem* new here so please forgive me for not keeping up. Read through a bit of this though and it sounds like you all are reminiscing from some historical posts/members/theories, etc. Far be it from me to intrude, though. Stumbled upon this thread as I was browsing the forum (after all, you can't miss it, it's like, RIGHT there), so I swung on in and decided to say hello. Maybe...we'll get to know each other a little and share insights?

Hey > :hiya:

It's sooooooooo good to see new people in this thread. :heart: Welcome!!! :hug: :give_heart:

 

[tha]

Hi Everybody !

Long time no talk here ! I hope all of you are fine ! I'm wondering ... Does anyone here still remember me ? I hope so ! *fingerscrossed*
I'm trying to follow the topic so I can make a good comment !

Well, I just wanna say that I miss this place a lot. I've tried to get busy to not feeling some things ... and I got to confess that I sometimes it is impossible ...

Anyway ... wish you all a great saturday !

God Bless You !

Kisses.

 

[Ape]

Of course you are remembered! I wonder what happened to some of the other past regular posters in here too...

 

[Lisha]

~~***~~ tha! ~~***~~ I had just been thinking about you! Nice to see you here. :flowers: God bless you back! You have a great Saturday, too. Where I am it's super HOT! How 'bout where you are today?

 

[tha]

Ape and Shila, I'm so glad to read it !! Hope you are fine ! I'm still reading the topic...hehe. Today is very hot , Shila, but here in Brazil we are still in winter !

Today is the Happy McDay of McDonald's. I don't know if this date is international, but I was thinking that is coincidence this date is so close from bday Mike ... I think this date is so like him !

 

[Lisha]

^ Did you get a "Happy Meal" today in order to celebrate? Did you request a "girl' toy or a "boy" toy with that? I like it when they have Hot Wheels and so I usually request a "boy" toy then, but if it's a "Little Pony" promotion, I say I want the "girl" toy for sure! :lol:

Here is a post of Moddie's from Jan 2010:

I too believe our Michael was overjoyed with deep personal happiness of this woman returning to him as he had asked God for. His clues indicated just how joyful and full of strength her return meant to him.

Michael told us over and over again in his "messages", what he had on his mind: Love. Romance and being one. This is also indicated in the different songs that were leaked in recent years and the theme of those songs.

Michael didn't leave this earth without God honoring the one prayer and blessing, his clues told us, he wanted most of all- Her to come back.

and she continues with this post:

God answers prayers, all you have to do is go to him sincerely and ask and you shall recieve.
Michael's clues indicated, he moved aside and put his faith in God and allow what he had prayed for to manifest.

God had his anointed hands all over Michael from conception( beginning), he wasn't going to leave his child (MJ), in the end( death).

Michael clues in the latter parts of his beautiful life, tell us, his prayer had been answered.

So I guess you might say that Moddie's perspective here is that if MJ truly called out to God in prayer for a second chance (One More Chance) with some girl in the past, and never stopped believing that God would answer his prayer one day and he would see her back in his life, then why would any of us, who have a relationship with God ourselves and understand what it means to seek God like this fervently over something so personal and important to us, that God would not one day have it come into being...and just "in time" (God's perfect timing/God is always on time)?

Isn't that most of our take on Faith and how our loving God would bless His children who call upon His name in faith? Remember we are to keep knocking...persevering in prayer until we get that answer!

Is that what MJ did regarding some lady? He has that lyric "And I want her to be mine." (who can tell me what song that line is from?) If MJ really felt that way, wouldn't he go to God and tell Him how much he wants her to be his? And if MJ persisted over a couple decades asking God to let her please be his, because she was always in his heart (what song/s is that from)...would God not answer or ignore him? Or would God honor MJ's faith and persistence in prayer?

Did MJ have as much as a mustard seed of faith that God would bring it about one day?

 

[tha]

I always ask for the boy toy, Shila ... I have a little boy ! Remember ? hihi

I've been trying to read all that I missed in this topic, but I can't ... ... but regarding you said in this last post, Shila, I will just give my humble opinion :

I don't know if Michael asked to God for someone ! I don't know ... it seems very desperate ! I always saw Michael as a person that "make to happen" and not "wait to happen" ! And when he became a father, I think all the love that maybe he was looking, he found there...in his kids ! Of course this kind of love is not the same, but I say like a mother ... when my son born, I felt my life complete and, honestly, I don't need no other kind of love beyond the love of my son and, is just my opinion, I think the Michael's kids complete him. And because that my argument, I think that would be very desperate to Michael ask to God for someone ... I think he can ask for other thing ... !

I think he always asked for peace in his life, in his heart ... like his "pray" in "Leave me Alone" !

 

[Lisha]

Aw, how old is your son, tha?

Hey, this is a nice discussion, thanks for offering your thoughts.

Hmmm. You would see it as desperate?

If he asked God for a "love so divine" (like the lyric in Someone Put Your Hand Out: The truth is I am longing for love that is so divine) then that seems to indicate he was handing over to God and/or hoping God would show him who was "the one" for him...or, (if we pay attention to the theme in the song Someone in The Dark) to show him who out of all the countless women out there (many VERY willing) who was his "Ben" friend, or soulmate or female counterpart, or however you'd want to word that.

I don't think so far this sounds like a man who is desperate in a weak way, but it describes a man who knows if what seems to be an impossible task is set before him (finding that 'one special woman' for him out of thousands) well, that he should go to his God for assistance (especially since his life was such an unique one, with finding or getting together with the 'right' one, even more of a challenge). That actually to me makes him come off wise. This is a characteristic that causes me to respect the man, for if he goes straight to God to work things out for him in this area, then he most likely would go straight to God in most areas of his life that are challengng or difficult for him. That is definitely the kind of man I could look up to.

You mention that you have always viewed MJ as a man to make things happen, not one to wait for things to happen.

I see him as a combination of both.

And really all I have to go on is how he went about things in his career and his creative process for things having to do with his career. Now the PT Barnum side of him, or the master showman in him, most definitely knew how to wait. Timing was everything. Timing in when he released his first single, timing in when the album would be released, timing in when his short films would make their world debut, timing in his choreography on stage in any given performance....do this step here at this time to that beat and emphasis from that instrument, looking this way sharply now, then turn the opposite way but not a moment to soon...have this song in the set come here, a pause there...keep em guessing, keep them waiting, keep them wanting more....So...

he'd buy his time and WAIT in order to bring optimum entertainment! Michael was a man who knew how to wait for things for effect.

Michael had also been a man who read and knew the word of God very, very well. He was familiar with all the Bible stories and all the characters in the Bible, and because of that, God, through it, would have taught Michael the importance of waiting on God.

Now if Michael was like anyone else who learns from God, then he knew how hard it is sometimes to wait on God for things we want to happen like NOW. And as a young man with such pointed career goals, I bet giving things over to God, and at times, just "sit on his hands" and wait, would have been a killer for him. lol. He was like a race horse at the gate, right....he had plans to take the world by storm. And the creative side of him would have caused him to be so focused and excited about what he was creating and wouldn't he probably just want to explode at times....getting him to wait at the gate would have been tough. I think this might be that side you are maybe alluding to, tha, in regards to seing him as a man who takes action. He took action regarding his career goals. Very driven.

One thing any of us cannot do is make someone love us. That is so hard for someone who is controlling and used to having things their own way. We can't make anyone's heart change in any way. Only God can change hearts and heart attitudes. So no matter how much any of us may want a person, love a person and want them to love us back...we can't control that.

Now we can do all kinds of things to try to get that person's attention and try to win them over. This thread has been exploring the idea all along that MJ was using some of his songs to get "her" attention, and it could also seem he was hoping that all his accomplshments in his field would impress "her" and win "her" over as well. He just wanted "her" to notice him and approve of him (a theory). Don't we all want that when we think we have found someone we hope will like us and want to be with us?

If you consider some of MJ's songs, and their lyrics, it sure seems he has said as much that he was gonna get that girl, or win her over in time. And when things were looking like nothing he was doing seemed to be working, his lyrics spoke of that, too.

There is a proverb or two, and I am paraphrasing, that speaks of how a man can make his plans, but God is the one who carries them out. I think it is possible that MJ had a plan to win the LITD girl over but along the road, little by little, God was showing him...'Son, you need Me to carry this one out for you...will you completely hand it ("her") over to Me?"

I could talk more in this vein, but the post is getting long. Maybe if someone posts, I'll pick up where I'm leaving off in another post.