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Invincible 25th Anniversary

MsAshley said:
I guess this thread is acceptable to post what I typed up. @threatened2020

Yeah because time is money. Sometime in 1999, Michael invited Tommy and Cory Rooney to listen to Break of Dawn in the studio. This would've been around January-February if I had to guess. Both of the executives were ecstatic because the song was fantastic. Tommy then recommended Cory to write something for Michael, which is how She Was Lovin' Me came to be; it was recorded between late March and early April of the same year. Tommy and Michael had a good working relationship during this period and Sony was fully behind the project. Tommy wanted the album released the fourth quarter of the year so Michael would be set for the new millennium. Mind you, Michael had been recording the album for going on two years already at this point (from October 1997 onward).

From 1997 through 2001, Michael spent between 30-40 million dollars (there are no exact numbers, just around 30 or more), and that is not counting the additional 25-30 million Sony dropped on it for promotions after the fact. 55-75 million dollars is a lot of money for a single album, especially when you consider the album was not making back the budget spent on it. Should Tommy have dumped many more millions of dollars on it when it was already tanking? More promotion would have helped, but it would have created more debt in the process.

Anyway, in autumn of 2000, Michael had told Sony he was going to start having the songs mixed and ready for an early 2001 release. He flaked and did not do that. Instead, not only did he not properly communicate what he was doing, but he decided to extend the budget further and make more songs. If you were a Sony VP, would you be happy about this? Of course not. This was around the period when there was a bit of drama with Tyrese, who begrudgingly let him have 2000 Watts. Can you believe Michael just yoinked someone's title track?

Tommy was still not too angry with Michael, as he invited him to his wedding in December of that year. All was still fine even if they were not pleased with the amount of money and time taken. Just because you're Michael Jackson does not mean you get to spend unlimited money that isn't even yours. That's bad business, and it's something no one else would even remotely get away with it.

Michael had a meeting with the Sony executives in June of 2001. They listened to the album and were not thrilled. Apparently, the room went quiet and got tense. I'd probably have to look, but it was either this meeting or one after where Tommy and Michael got into a heated argument about the singles that would be released. Michael desperately needed to be reeled back in from whatever the **** was going on with the tracks he chose, and Sony was trying to do that, but he would not listen. All that happened was Shout got replaced (but this was around September and may not have involved Sony at all)... which was the wrong song to drop for sure. It was during this meeting that Michael withdrew, dropping his desire for Unbreakable to be the lead single, instead opting for what Sony wanted: You Rock My World. Michael agreed to start the process for filming the music video right away.

Later meetings would have Tommy and Michael arguing about which songs would get additional music videos--Michael wanted a video for Unbreakable and Threatened, but there were two problems. Michael wanted to break his contract and screw Sony out of money while also retaining full control of the album. Tommy was pissed and withdrew funding. Michael still had a door though, if he toured then they could make back money for the album. But given Michael's refusal to tour after 9/11 with the album sales sinking in spite of promotion, Sony was done with him at the time. Michael claimed he would fund it, but that never happened. While a tour would have increased the aforementioned debt further, it would have likely evened it out in the end. That was really all Michael could do given how poorly things were going, and according to Michael Prince, he was going to tour. Then 9/11 happened, and he changed his mind (Michael hated to tour as we know, so this was likely an excuse).

November of 2001 would be pivotal for Michael, as he went to Times Square to promote the album, but there was a lot of screaming and yelling going on in the background. This would be roughly when Michael would get angry about kicking Sony out of the picture and retaining complete control. Tommy gave him immediate backlash by refusing to air What More Can I Give (just a few days after the Times Square promotion). Michael made a lot of threats against the Sony executives, mainly Tommy, at the time. Those threats would be realized the following year.

Because of Sony withdrawing due to Michael's insane demands and refusal to cooperate, he went on his little anti-Sony/Tommy tour during the summer of 2002.

Michael still had to release an album and a boxset given his contract he signed shortly after Janet signed her Virgin contract, which topped hers... seems petty, but it could just be a coincidence. Michael was still on okay terms after the Invincible fiasco, because he received a cash advance for the Ultimate edition in 2004 before it was released. Things are not entirely what they appear.

This is just a basic overview, but there's been a lot of people that have talked at length about the innerworkings of the album and what actually happened. This is just from my memory right now. Michael took several years, spent a ton of money, wouldn't tour to make it back amid less than great sales, and then got angry Sony withdrew promotions over what happened in the background. I do agree with Michael though, Unbreakable would have been a better lead single than You Rock My World. And the video concept sounds a lot cooler too.
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Yo how did u find out this
?
 
Paul MCC said:
First of all, Sony didn’t spend 25 million on advertising. That’s a lie from Mottola. They spent 10 million at most (6 million of which went to the You Rock My World music video). The album basically had no promotion at all! Just 2-3 promo clips, and they even used only Michael’s face as a promo photo everywhere! This is despite the fact that Michael participated in at least two photo shoots, the shots from which could have easily been used to promote the album.

And I’m not even mentioning that neither of the two commercial singles was properly released! YRMW and Cry were only sold in Europe. And the cover featured that same single shot of Michael’s face... They were cutting corners on advertising big time, and that, of course, prevented Invincible from being promoted properly.

The fact that Mottola wanted a finished album from Michael by the end of 1999 was obviously stupid. Michael spent an average of about 4 years recording a new album. It was dumb to demand more from him. And don’t forget that in 1997, Mike released the Ghosts short film and the BOTDF remix album. All of that took up a lot of time. Invincible was meant to be released exactly in 2001.

And by the way, you didn’t mention that Sony wasn’t even happy with the album in 1999. That’s exactly why Michael had to add new songs. Most of the tracks are actually from 2001. Only 4-5 songs from the final tracklist were recorded before 2000.

Both Michael and Mottola are to blame for Invincible failing. But Mottola is more to blame because he really wanted to say "No" just to stroke his own ego. I’ve read fragments of his book. You can clearly see he was proud of being the only one who could refuse Michael. The guy just wanted to assert himself: "Look, I said no and put the King of Pop himself in his place!"

Two years later, this idiot was kicked out of Sony in disgrace. It was bound to happen
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Wait mottola kicked out of sony?
 
Hot_Street said:
Imagine you are in charge to create Invincible 25.
What would you do for the album, that still moves mjjc?
https://twitter.com/x/status/2030354295715930470

album songs for Invincible 25

2026 Invincible 25th Anniversary Pick your favourite existing outtakes for Invincible 25, that were released on an album. They should be released in their original form, of course. https://www.mjjcommunity.com/threads/invincible-25th-anniversary.202182/...
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non-album songs for Invincible 25

2026 Invincible 25th Anniversary pick your favourite existing outtakes for Invincible 25, that were not released on an album outtakes from Michael/Xscape are excluded, because they're already released on a solo album unlike Shout and We've Had Enough...
www.mjjcommunity.com www.mjjcommunity.com

Schedule for the Estate, Sony, Universal Music

Let's support the Estate and collect dates and ideas for future releases. We can do it, we can do it We can work it out The Jacksons, 1976 SCHEDULE FOR THE ESTATE, SONY, Universal Music Group 2024 Victory 40th Anniversary https://www.mjjcommunity.com/threads/victory-40th-anniversary.202865/...
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My first thought: SPEECHLESS SINGLE ON VINYL 😍❤️🫢🦋✨
 
I’m sitting here listening to 2000 Watts. Man, what a dull, boring, and completely hollow track. The melody is as repetitive as it gets and doesn't grab you at all, it’s just... nothing. I feel like when they were recording this, they wanted to focus on the vocals to hook the listener. But Michael’s vocals... they're just terrible. It’s completely tasteless.

You can describe the whole song like this: a 43 year old man trying to sound like a cool 20 year old teenager. It’s cringe. When Michael starts going "3D, 3D, 3D" after Teddy, I just want to facepalm so hard it goes through my skull...

I take my words back. You Are My Life isn’t the worst track. You can at least listen to YAML in the background. There are moments where the song actually plays with the listener a bit and reaches a peak. Privacy is also pretty bad, but at least Michael sings with that funny, "intimidating" voice there. Plus, the arrangement overall isn't that bad, it just needs some work.

2000 Watts is just a filler... It’s a song about sex... but who would seriously dance to this? Nobody but Michael Jackson, I guess... They just took an incredibly empty and cheap song and tried to layer a bunch of effects and sounds over it. In my opinion, the problem is that 2000 Watts had no potential to begin with. The melody is just too boring. You’re not even interested in seeing where the song is going... because it’s not actually going anywhere; it’s just standing still. And the same annoying melody just keeps looping.

By the way, I like Shout better now. I re-listened to it a few times today. Shout is worse than Privacy, but better than 2000 Watts imo
 
Michael Jackson's 2000 Watts:

how-do-you-do-fellow-kids.jpg
 
Okay, I apologize. I overreacted a little. 2000 Watts did have potential. I just came across a fan-made live mix, and honestly, I really like it. The song feels totally different. I think the biggest problem with Invincible was the production/instrumentals

 
Paul MCC said:
2000 Watts is just a filler... It’s a song about sex... but who would seriously dance to this? Nobody but Michael Jackson, I guess... They just took an incredibly empty and cheap song and tried to layer a bunch of effects and sounds over it.
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You must have not listened to the radio back then when ringtone songs were big. 2000 Watts would fit in with tracks like these
 
Paul MCC said:
I’m sitting here listening to 2000 Watts. Man, what a dull, boring, and completely hollow track. The melody is as repetitive as it gets and doesn't grab you at all, it’s just... nothing. I feel like when they were recording this, they wanted to focus on the vocals to hook the listener. But Michael’s vocals... they're just terrible. It’s completely tasteless.

You can describe the whole song like this: a 43 year old man trying to sound like a cool 20 year old teenager. It’s cringe. When Michael starts going "3D, 3D, 3D" after Teddy, I just want to facepalm so hard it goes through my skull...

I take my words back. You Are My Life isn’t the worst track. You can at least listen to YAML in the background. There are moments where the song actually plays with the listener a bit and reaches a peak. Privacy is also pretty bad, but at least Michael sings with that funny, "intimidating" voice there. Plus, the arrangement overall isn't that bad, it just needs some work.

2000 Watts is just a filler... It’s a song about sex... but who would seriously dance to this? Nobody but Michael Jackson, I guess... They just took an incredibly empty and cheap song and tried to layer a bunch of effects and sounds over it. In my opinion, the problem is that 2000 Watts had no potential to begin with. The melody is just too boring. You’re not even interested in seeing where the song is going... because it’s not actually going anywhere; it’s just standing still. And the same annoying melody just keeps looping.

By the way, I like Shout better now. I re-listened to it a few times today. Shout is worse than Privacy, but better than 2000 Watts imo
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2000 Watts is definitely not a song where you should pay attention to the melody in the first place. That's like saying Can't Let Her Get Away doesn't have a good melody. It's more of a futuristic and sonic experiment. Maybe I'm seeing it from another perspective since I'm a beatmaker, but it's really creative. It's another example of a producer (Teddy in this case) finding and altering sounds and doing something unique with it. The bass doesn't even sound like a normal bass-line, it feels more like an "oomph"-wave. Sure, you could trim the last two minutes since it drags a bit, but the track still hits hard. And if it hadn’t been included, critics would probably have argued that MJ wasn’t taking any risks and that the album lacked innovation. At its core, it’s more of a dance track.
 
JEMFTV said:
2000 Watts is definitely not a song where you should pay attention to the melody in the first place. That's like saying Can't Let Her Get Away doesn't have a good melody. It's more of a futuristic and sonic experiment. Maybe I'm seeing it from another perspective since I'm a beatmaker, but it's really creative. It's another example of a producer (Teddy in this case) finding and altering sounds and doing something unique with it. The bass doesn't even sound like a normal bass-line, it feels more like an "oomph"-wave. Sure, you could trim the last two minutes since it drags a bit, but the track still hits hard. And if it hadn’t been included, critics would probably have argued that MJ wasn’t taking any risks and that the album lacked innovation. At its core, it’s more of a dance track.
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As I said before, 2000 Watts suffers from a cheap instrumental. I honestly think the album versions of Threatened, Privacy, and 2000 Watts are terrible.

However, I often replay two of my favorite Threatened remixes, and I love how it sounds in This Is It - that’s exactly how it should’ve sounded from the start!

2000 Watts is actually pretty vibey, too. Check out how it sounds in this fan-made remake


Isn't it amazing?

By the way, Invincible also sounds better in some fan remakes. Although I do like the album version too

 
I envision 2000W as a duet with Prince ( basically replacing Teddy Riley's vocals) with two additional minutes of jamming and freestyle ( electric guitar solos, etc.). Now that would have been a killer track.

By the way, beside YRMW, none of the uptempo songs on Invincible would have cracked the US/UK top 40 ( maybe a 3:30 edit of Heartbreaker would have had a little chance ).
 
DuranDuran said:
You must have not listened to the radio back then when ringtone songs were big. 2000 Watts would fit in with tracks like these
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That Soulja Boy song came out almost a decade after "2000 Watts". Are you just choosing stuff at random lol
 
Spaceship said:
That Soulja Boy song came out almost a decade after "2000 Watts". Are you just choosing stuff at random lol
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New Jack Swing was 6 or 7 years old before Dangerous was released, and it was on the way out then. A lot of the ringtone stuff sounded alike, no matter what year it came out. Which was the same with New Jack Swing, reggaeton, & stuff produced by Stock Aitken Waterman.
 
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