Invincible's tracklist and how it was still a major setback for the album

MJ should've removed Invincible and Heaven Can Wait from the album, they sound like weaker versions of Unbreakable and Break Of Dawn.
 
The album is so polarizing. There seems to be one consensus though and that is that the title track and 2000 watts and cry are by far the least popular songs of the album
 
filmandmusic said:
There seems to be one consensus though and that is that the title track and 2000 watts and cry are by far the least popular songs of the album
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I've heard quite a few people "praise" 2000 watts
Invincible isn't really talked about at all, whether positive or negative

Cry is probably right though
 
filmandmusic said:
That is mostly a grossly exaggerated figure. The album left almost all charts in 6 weeks time. Debuting high and then dropping like a stone week after week. Compare that with the longevity of HIStory which charted for give or take 100 weeks in the biggest markets.
I know many fans hide after a figure of 8 million but that is quite simply fantasy cause certifications are based on shipments not sales.

The first single was a moderate success because of hype and promotion but it is now mainly a forgotten song in his catalogue. The second single was a huge flop. Compare that to his other albums who had up to 7 singles and even the later released singles of an album often still reached top 10 positions all over the world.

Michael set the bar high with his former albums and he didn’t even come close to jump over it with Invincible
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The IFBB confirmed it sold 5.4m in 2001, and by 2002, it was reported to be at 6m. Not at all a stretch to think it eventually sold 2m more years later. Also, it left the Billlboard chart in June 2002, certainly more than 6 weeks after its release in October 2001 lol

It's funny, because fans used to say that it sold over 12m all the time until that was shut down a while back. Now apparently it selling 8m possibly isn't accurate lol
 
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A problem I have with Invincible's track list, is it's too long and there are lots of songs that sound similar.

It's too easy to compare certain tracks, which dilutes their specialness, instead of highlighting their uniqueness. Which was what Michael's previous albums were always all about

Perhaps this was because there were so many writers trying to sound like Michael, rather Mike writing for himself
 
@Spaceship

6 million sounds like an acceptable figure, more than that is impossible in my eyes.
I don’t know about its billboard chart run but it left most charts in Europe inside 2 months.

Do you have the USA chart run? I presume it charted in the lower ends of the top 200 for most of its run. Those are just sales of a few 1000 copies a week really…
 
SeriousEffect. said:
They picked the wrong singles.
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Not really. Darkchild was a popular producer at the time, just like Teddy Riley was in the New Jack Swing era. I think the singles are irrelevant. I thought that Sony stopped promotion because of that "Tommy Mattola is the devil" protest. That didn't seem like a wise thing to do. Protesting a record label that you want to promote your records did not work for Prince or George Michael years before Invincible existed. R&B & hip hop radio stations played Butterflies on their own, not because Sony was promoting it. Heaven Can Wait also got some R&B airplay, but not as much as Butterflies did. Butterflies had the neo-soul sound that was popular with the R&B audience at the time. But except for a few exceptions, neo-soul did not crossover to get Top 40 pop airplay.
 
Lord Szechenyi said:
Kind of like a few of the songs on Dangerous
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Yeah sort of mate, but I think the songs that were similar on Dangerous were about different subjects.
Although I would have perhaps preferred Joy over Can't Let Her Get Away but I do love Can't Let Her Get Away as part of the album overall
 
Yeah Butterflies was a massive radio hit in the US, it was never a single.
Tell me I'm not dreaming the duet between Jermaine and Michael was also a massive radio hit in 1984
 
I don’t know if this makes sense but I think the songs on Invincible are solid on their own, but it just doesn’t work well as an album.

Maybe I’m biased though because for me, Michael could sing the most basic melody with the most basic lyrics and I’d still get something out of it. I mean, that’s what people argue the latter half of the Motown stuff is and I enjoy that stuff too. So songs that are objectively like “Yeah, this is not really that good” I don’t mind listening to if it comes on shuffle.
 
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Hudson112 said:
I don’t know if this makes sense but I think the songs on Invincible are solid on their own, but it just doesn’t work well as an album.

Maybe I’m biased though because for me, Michael could sing the most basic melody with the most basic lyrics and I’d still get something out of it. I mean, that’s what people argue the latter half of the Motown stuff is and I enjoy that stuff too. So songs that are objectively like “Yeah, this is not really that good” I don’t mind listening to if it comes on shuffle.
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I see what you mean, some songs would've fit better if they were released on TUC instead.
 
filmandmusic said:
Yeah Butterflies was a massive radio hit in the US, it was never a single.
Tell me I'm not dreaming the duet between Jermaine and Michael was also a massive radio hit in 1984
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Butterflies reached number 14 on Billboard Hot 100 from radio airplay alone. Had it been released as an official single, it would have been a top 10 hit for sure, maybe even a number 1 hit.
 
ChartMasters has Invincible at certified global sales of 6,475,000 as of 2017. Then they add in singles, digital downloads, streaming, music video views, allocation from greatest hits packages and the total unit sales come in at 9,208,000.

But yeah if you are talking just albums sold its around 6.5 million. The 8 million figure was probably total units shipped.

Compare that to...

HIStory: 18.6 million
Dangerous: 30 million
Bad: 34 million
Thriller: 66 million
Off The Wall: 19.5 million

Yeah Invincible was by far the lowest sales. Ever since MJ had kids he went down hill for commercially successful music. He was distracted, you could tell his entire heart wasn't in it like before. Most of the songs weren't written by him at all. It was a producers mess with too many cooks in the kitchen. Still had some great songs IMO but for MJ it was disappointing.
 
Nite Line said:
Someone please explain the Shout hype to me.
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Can't speak about hype, don't know anything about that. But my own reaction to the song? Well, it gets me up and dancing - and I am not at all the 'get up and dance' type. It's the only Michael song that can do that. I also have to sing along (well, in my head, don't wanna frighten the neighbours) and that's something else I never, ever do. Again, there isn't another song from Michael that does that for me. I mean, obviously, I listen to lyrics (sometimes, not always) but that's different to singing along to them. Well, it feels different to me.

Love the beat just for itself but also cos it'll pick me up every single time. No matter how rubbish my life is that song will prop me up. It just never fails. I love Michael's vocals, it's like my brain is racing through a maze trying to work out what he's doing or, I dunno, trying to 'find' this sound that he's come up with. Can't really explain it but it's like I'm chasing after this voice because there's something going on somewhere and I wanna know more. I want to run out the front door and find ... whatever it is he's telling me about. His voice on this song is like an adventure. Or it's like a mystery (one I can't solve, obvs). I love that he doesn't sound like he normally does. Not that I don't prefer his normal vocal sound, I absolutely do and wouldn't want all of his songs to sound like this, but I love this sound he's created here.

The guitar! Don't know what to say. I'm not saying it's the best ever guitar I've ever heard but it's perfect for the song. When the guitar comes in I'm practically in meltdown. And the guitar is saying so much.

Lyrically it's great (and they are really relevant at the mo) and I love the urgency in his voice, there's just something about the way he delivers them ('come on, we haven't got time to waste', that's what it feels like).

And it makes me laugh. I mean, proper laugh-out-loud.

Plus, Michael does sound really sexy. So that's cool.

What can I say? I'm sure I haven't changed anyone's mind but that's OK. I think it's brilliant, it's earthy and gritty (not hardcore but definitely gritty) and yet so mysterious, as well. It's kind of beautiful.

It really doesn't feel as if I'm ever going to get to the end of whatever the song is trying to tell me. Plus, I just have loads of fun with it. Gotta be happy about that.
 
Lord Jackson said:
All 3 of these songs are up-tempo, fast, aggressive etc.
Michael never did that on any other album, by at least the 3rd track you had 1 slower/calmer song, Stranger in Moscow, Superfly Sister, In The Closet etc.
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Off The Wall was 5 uptempos in a row. 5 of the most danceable songs in his entire career, some of the catchiest music in history.

And I don't consider In The Closet a slower/calmer song. Maybe the album version, but not the single version, and certainly not based off the music videos dancing. Some of his most intense and aggressive ever. Like, lol, be for real.
 
Invincibles best songs are on the first half, and then the last two. Everything in the middle is good but maybe not quite single worthy. Still enjoy a lot of it. It's easy listening ballads mostly.
 
So i once read that MJ only let Sony hear 'You Rock My World' and 'Break Of Dawn' (which they liked) and were disappointed/mad when they heard the rest
 
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zinniabooklover said:
Love the beat just for itself but also cos it'll pick me up every single time. No matter how rubbish my life is that song will prop me up. It just never fails. I love Michael's vocals, it's like my brain is racing through a maze trying to work out what he's doing or, I dunno, trying to 'find' this sound that he's come up with. Can't really explain it but it's like I'm chasing after this voice because there's something going on somewhere and I wanna know more. I want to run out the front door and find ... whatever it is he's telling me about. His voice on this song is like an adventure. Or it's like a mystery (one I can't solve, obvs). I love that he doesn't sound like he normally does. Not that I don't prefer his normal vocal sound, I absolutely do and wouldn't want all of his songs to sound like this, but I love this sound he's created here.
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I love Shout!! If there's a "hype" it's 100% justified, IMO.
zinniabooklover said:
And it makes me laugh. I mean, proper laugh-out-loud.
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That's... interesting, to say the least. 🤣 But I know you mean it positively!
zinniabooklover said:
Plus, Michael does sound really sexy. So that's cool.
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Hard agree, oh man! Pinging @Hiker too, because I know she agrees as well. 😉

To me, it reminds me a bit of Disturbed, musically speaking. I mean that in a good way, despite not being a fan.

It also truly feels like a counterpart to Cry, the A-side - lyrically, they talk about similar things. The titles are also similar. But the music, combined with the general tone of each song, is almost opposite. Cry is a positive, uplifting ballad, whereas Shout is angry, pissed off, and loud. I wonder if this was all inentional, who knows. I'd like to believe it is.
 
DangerousGal91 said:
I love Shout!! If there's a "hype" it's 100% justified, IMO.
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SO much this. :)

zinniabooklover said:
And it makes me laugh. I mean, proper laugh-out-loud.
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DangerousGal91 said:
That's... interesting, to say the least. 🤣 But I know you mean it positively!
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Back when I wrote this, I didn't have any sw23 reference points in my head. Now, I can be really lazy and say this is a very sw23 response so at least I know I'm not the only one. She might not react to this *specific* song like this but I know for sure she does do this. And, hopefully, other peeps do as well. So I'll just leave that there, lol. :D

DangerousGal91 said:
To me, it reminds me a bit of Disturbed, musically speaking. I mean that in a good way, despite not being a fan.
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Don't know them. But Shout for sure is a rock song, imo, so if they are a rock band I can understand your point.

DangerousGal91 said:
It also truly feels like a counterpart to Cry, the A-side - lyrically, they talk about similar things. The titles are also similar. But the music, combined with the general tone of each song, is almost opposite. Cry is a positive, uplifting ballad, whereas Shout is angry, pissed off, and loud. I wonder if this was all inentional, who knows. I'd like to believe it is.
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I always forget it was a B side. I never bought Michael's records when he was alive so it was quite a while after he died before I came across Shout. Happy day!
 
The biggest reason I can hardly listen to 'Invincible' is Michael's vocals. The tracks themselves are obviously not very strong and sounded already outdated at the time of release but it could still have been so much better if he the vocals were any good: his voice sounds hoarse from the laryngitis, he is slurring because of the medication and sounds unclear from the surgery on his upper lip. And most of all: there seems to be so little effort in vocal performance; every former random MJ song ('Just Good Friends' or whatever) has more vocal flexibility than anything on 'Invincible'. Sometimes a melody of one of the songs is stuck in my head but I never really enjoy listening the songs themselves because of his delivery, such a downer from one of the most beautiful vocalists in the world. He had to quit singing after History imo, that would also save him from having a bad rep as a lip-syncer
 
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