Lack of songs from the BAD album at the 1987 shows

[NatureCriminal7896]

Michael shouldn't never did the tour. it was great and all but it really back fire him at the end run. i'm so glad once the tour was over he move on with his life and moved away.

his family use him for money. and they were was also jealous of him. while he did have a heart for his family and no family is perfect. let be real, they did him wrong. Michael is gone and even though his brothers and family loves him they did and still do some pretty shady stuff.

if Michael was alive he would rant his family past like he did when he was alive. you can still love someone and still be real with their actions.

Michael is gone and they still lie when it comes to somethings. Janet has to be the only really one in the family who been with Michael and stuck up for him the most.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

"You have to be a good son." bullcrap. Michael was an adult he could of did whatever the heck he want. I can see if Michael was 2. no he was a freaking adult.

 

[Nite Line]

"You have to be a good son." bullcrap. Michael was an adult he could of did whatever the heck he want. I can see if Michael was 2. no he was a freaking adult.

Stop complaining. Victory was a great tour that I and many fans enjoy very much. Just cause you don't like it, don't cry about how MJ was forced to do the tour. And just because MJ was an adult, it doesn't mean he can't be a good son. What the hell is even your point? And stop spamming every thread with consecutive posts. Learn to use the edit feature if you got something else to add.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

Stop complaining. Victory was a great tour that I and many fans enjoy very much. Just cause you don't like it, don't cry about how MJ was forced to do the tour. And just because MJ was an adult, it doesn't mean he can't be a good son. What the hell is even your point? And stop spamming every thread with consecutive posts. Learn to use the edit feature if you got something else to add.

LOL! he was force. whatever you don't want to admit or not. Michael can be a good son? LOL! in my opinion being a good son is helping your family when you can if you want. not being force to do things. i'm not sure what family you come from so maybe your views are different from others.

also I never said I didn't like the tour. see now you putting words in my mouth.

whatever you feel about this family is fine but let's be real they did some and still do some pretty shady stuff.

 

[mj_frenzy]

The Jacksons worked very well as a group for years, but... it stopped after some point, when MJ skyrocketed to another level. And I don't only mean his success, but rather that he had his very own vision about the future of his art, which simply couldn't be achieved with his brothers anymore. Not because they weren't talented enough, but because in a giant personal project like this they could only function as instruments in realising MJ's ideas, which wouldn't have been fair towards them. It's nobody's fault really, but it happened.

And I'm a big J5 and Jacksons fan (I actually prefer Destiny and Triumph over Off The Wall), I like Jermaine's mid-80's work, I think the 2300 Jackson Street album is an underappreciated gem, and I love the Victory album which is like showcasing the brothers' individual ideas.

The Jacksons worked very well as a band for years because of Michael Jackson.

Without him, they could not have achieved anything because they were untalented, and the ‘2300 Jackson Street’ album (1989) is one proof for that.

That album (without Michael Jackson’s involvement) went totally unnoticed, and its poor success even made the Epic label end the contract with the band.

And you can spot the lack of talent of his brothers also during the Victory Tour when his brothers resorted to certain things on stage (pantomime, ridiculous costumes, pointless visual effects, etc) in order to hide their lack of any real talent.

Let’s be honest about that: the only two talented siblings from the Jackson family are Michael Jackson and his sister Janet Jackson.

I will never understand this argument to be quite honest. You do realize that the Jacksons were a group right? They had every right to want to record, release an album and then later tour to promote it. Their last album was four years prior to Victory coming out. So why shouldn't they want to record a new album? Of course they had to wait on MJ because MJ was the lead singer of the group! If i recall correctly it was even stipulated in MJ's contract pre thriller that there would be a group release in between his solo albums.

At the end of the day MJ was still very involved with the Victory album. It would be naive on his part if he expected the brothers to not want to tour with that album for whatever reason. It wasn't the brothers fault that they didn't promote the Victory Tour with songs from the actual victory album, that was at MJ's behest. I'm sure there are other shady moments were they were pressuring him into doing stuff and all of that jazz but I don't see how Victory was one of them.

Even if his contract specified that, Michael Jackson actually did not want to be a part of the Victory album.

For example, he did not attend along with his brothers the album’s artwork photo shoot because he did not want to be with them, so he asked and got a separate photo shoot only for him.

Even his posture on the ‘Victory’ cover indicates how he wants to distance himself from them.

He also refused to appear on the ‘Torture’ music video with them.

There was also all that known, behind-the-scenes mess-up of the Victory Tour because of Michael Jackson’s serious disagreements with them on many other issues.

 

[analogue]

I'm gonna say something which I know many will consider to be blasphemy because lots of fans love the performance of this song. But I honestly wouldn't have minded if Michael replaced Human Nature with Liberian Girl on the BAD Tour.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

Let’s be honest about that: the only two talented siblings from the Jackson family are Michael Jackson and his sister Janet Jackson.

:clapping:

Even if his contract specified that, Michael Jackson actually did not want to be a part of the Victory album.

For example, he did not attend along with his brothers the album’s artwork photo shoot because he did not want to be with them, so he asked and got a separate photo shoot only for him.

Even his posture on the ‘Victory’ cover indicates how he wants to distance himself from them.

He also refused to appear on the ‘Torture’ music video with them.

There was also all that known, behind-the-scenes mess-up of the Victory Tour because of Michael Jackson’s serious disagreements with them on many other issues.

:shrugmeme:

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

In my opinion, Michael brothers are not that very talented. but they aren't talented. they mediocre in my put. they nowhere near and still isn't on Michael level. the only person who is on Michael level is Janet. everybody else ehhhh. o_e"

this is my opinion you don't have to agree with it.

and Michael didn't want to do that tour. he was force. it's a fact. but shoutout to him for doing it even if he didn't. great tour.

 

[Mikky Dee]

Well, the Asian tour started in September and the Bad album had only been out 3 weeks or so. He did perform the two singles that had been released in fairness.

As for working the choreography out, he had recorded the Smooth Criminal video in February, March and April of 1987...A year and a half before it was put out as a single so he had all the dancing and moves done for some, if not all these songs worked out.

Perhaps it was a mix of laziness/perfectionism/insecurity. That he wanted to play safe for a few gigs as this was his first solo tour.
He did also say he started the tour in Asia because they didn't get to see the previous two Jackson tours so maybe keeping the setlist like that was a way of presenting what they had missed out previously?

Minus the words "laziness" and "insecurity", I think you present valid theories. Let's not forget that there's more then just one person involved in a tour of the magnitude of the BAD Tour. To me, it's more likely that Michael needed the back-up dancers, musicians, etc. to be as perfect as they possibly could be and on the same page as himself, to his satisfaction, before he would consider performing them live in a concert. Let's not forget that he wasn't used to using people other than his brothers, who of course had been in synch with him since they were children.

 

[Mikky Dee]

having a different opinion is not bs and certainly not "hating" on the brothers, and anyway, being an mj fan doesn't make it obligatory to care about his siblings too.

Thank you!

 

[Mikky Dee]

Just see it the positive way. The '87 leg was basicly the VICTORY tour without his brothers.

Lmaoooooo!!!

 

[analogue]

This is why I have a love-hate relationship with the 87 leg of the Bad Tour. He sung live more, a lot more, and energy was great, but there were hardly any songs from the Bad album. It’s frustrating!

Because of the lack of songs from that album at the 1987 shows I sometimes forget that those are even BAD Tour shows. The 87 shows feel more like a warm up to the real BAD Tour.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

We’re talking about 50 years of family dynamics here. I think, none of us is capable to assess their relationships going by the (in the grand scheme of things) little bits that went public.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Minus the words "laziness" and "insecurity", I think you present valid theories.

Thanks for this.

 

[analogue]

I just wanna say

Triumph Tour > Victory Tour.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

I'm gonna say something which I know many will consider to be blasphemy because lots of fans love the performance of this song. But I honestly wouldn't have minded if Michael replaced Human Nature with Liberian Girl on the BAD Tour.

I kind of agree with you. while human nature was one of Michael favorite songs (and mines too.) I think he should of at least dropped a few songs older songs and more BAD songs. he could of at least kept a few older songs. it was the BAD tour after all.

 

[Rocketeer]

I'm gonna say something which I know many will consider to be blasphemy because lots of fans love the performance of this song. But I honestly wouldn't have minded if Michael replaced Human Nature with Liberian Girl on the BAD Tour.

Oof, that hit hard

Because of the lack of songs from that album at the 1987 shows I sometimes forget that those are even BAD Tour shows. The 87 shows feel more like a warm up to the real BAD Tour.

Makes sense, but I still enjoy some remarkable 87 shows, like Tokyo (first performances of some songs like Bad and Thriller, and Black and Red shirts) and Brisbane (different outfits and Stevie Wonder In Bad)

I just wanna say
Triumph Tour > Victory Tour.

Gonna have to agree. As much as I like watching Victory Tour shows, even if they are a little scant in availability, Triumph Tour is so much more superior in terms of energy, vocals, and overall atmosphere on stage. I could just perceive the raw energy and resolve in Michael that shined on the Triumph Tour, brighter than on the Victory Tour, as sad as that is to say. I just wish a new Triumph Tour concert would manifest itself on the net already, at an expense or none whatsoever!

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

I'm gonna say something which I know many will consider to be blasphemy because lots of fans love the performance of this song. But I honestly wouldn't have minded if Michael replaced Human Nature with Liberian Girl on the BAD Tour.

Interesting take. I'd rather him replace She's Out Of My Life with Liberian Girl.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

I'd rather him replace She's Out Of My Life with Liberian Girl.

I agree with you with this one. I don't like sofml. great idea.

 

[DuranDuran]

Let’s be honest about that: the only two talented siblings from the Jackson family are Michael Jackson and his sister Janet Jackson.

Can they sing and play bass at the same time? That is a hard thing to do.
[video=youtube;JeapaltJEx4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeapaltJEx4[/video]
You picked the 2 known for dancing, which has nothing to do with recorded music. Neither does music videos. Would Janet's music be as popular without videos or Jam & Lewis. Her records without them did not do as well like the one produced by Jermaine Dupri or Dream Street. Janet records would not have sold as well if she came out in the 1960s or 1970s. Janet benefited from music videos becoming popular in the 1980s. So did others like Madonna, Paula Abdul, & the glam metal bands. Milli Vanilli is proof of the power of MTV & music videos. Rob & Fab sold multi-platinum in the USA and did not sing a note on their album. They won a Grammy too. Video killed the radio star. :rofl:
[video=youtube;lqmO9VE0PuY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqmO9VE0PuY[/video]

 

[dethorro]

Let’s be honest about that: the only two talented siblings from the Jackson family are Michael Jackson and his sister Janet Jackson.

Just because someone isn't a musical genius (like Michael Jackson) doesn't mean that he isn't musically talented.

The brothers and sisters weren't on Michael's level, obviously. No one is! However, the Jackson brothers could play instruments quite well (which by the way, you need talent for) and they had pretty good singing voices (they could harmonize nicely).

They also co-wrote some of The Jacksons biggest hits (Jackie wrote Can You Feel It with Michael and Torture and Randy wrote Lovely One and Shake Your Body with Michael)

 

[ChrisC]

They also co-wrote some of The Jacksons biggest hits (Jackie wrote Can You Feel It with Michael and Torture and Randy wrote Lovely One and Shake Your Body with Michael)

The brothers and only the brothers wrote all of the songs on Destiny and Triumph, with the exception of Blame It On The Boogie and Everybody.

 

[dethorro]

The brothers and only the brothers wrote all of the songs on Destiny and Triumph, with the exception of Blame It On The Boogie and Everybody.

Correct. How can anybody say that they aren't talented?

 

[Nite Line]

What's with this BS that the only talented siblings were Michael and Janet? First of all, Janet was only a great dancer. She isn't and was never a great singer. She was also heavily reliant on Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis for the songwriting and production of her songs. I didn't see her play any instruments either. In contrast, the brothers wrote their own songs starting from Destiny and played instruments. Jermaine, Marlon, Jackie & Randy were all better singers than Janet. So to make it seem like Janet was on Michael's level and so much better than the brothers is complete nonsense.

Jermaine, Randy & Tito were all better than Michael at playing instruments and it takes talent to play instruments. Talent isn't just about how well you can moonwalk or how high notes you can hit. I know all the arrogant and hateful Michael fans will attack me for this, but I don't care.

I don't care if people don't like the brothers. I am not the biggest fan of their music either, but to say that they are untalented is complete bullshit and I'm not accepting that.

 

[Nite Line]

Correct. How can anybody say that they aren't talented?

A lot of Michael fans are arrogant and think that Michael was the only talented one in the family. All of Michael fans get a bad rep because of some of these crazy Michael fans.

 

[JichaelMackson]

I's probably the most musically talented family in the world. You can clearly see they are talented in the Hayvenhurst demos, for example working day and night consist of only family members creating the backbone of a world class funk song. Tito, Jermaine, Randy are as good as anyone on their instrument, they can all sing, they can all write, they are versatile. They are touring now without Michael which means they know how to perform and play music. The 3 sisters all had varying success as singers. They have been living and breathing music since they were kids, they know nothing else but instruments, recording studios, performing, singing. Young Michael grew up in the studio looking at masters as Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, Janet grew up looking at her brothers writing material in the home studio. You can hear her in some of the demo's.

It's incredibly disrespectful to call them untalented. When they all were on the same page creating Destiny and Triumph they were absolute world class song crafters, all of them together as a unit.
In a way I always was sad that Thriller became so big, if it didn't happen, the brothers would probably continue recording and touring together and belting out albums every other year. Because of thriller's success MJ became anxious which resulted in only an album every 5 years or so.

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

What's with this BS that the only talented siblings were Michael and Janet? First of all, Janet was only a great dancer. She isn't and was never a great singer. She was also heavily reliant on Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis for the songwriting and production of her songs. I didn't see her play any instruments either. In contrast, the brothers wrote their own songs starting from Destiny and played instruments. Jermaine, Marlon, Jackie & Randy were all better singers than Janet. So to make it seem like Janet was on Michael's level and so much better than the brothers is complete nonsense.

Jermaine, Randy & Tito were all better than Michael at playing instruments and it takes talent to play instruments. Talent isn't just about how well you can moonwalk or how high notes you can hit. I know all the arrogant and hateful Michael fans will attack me for this, but I don't care.

I don't care if people don't like the brothers. I am not the biggest fan of their music either, but to say that they are untalented is complete bullshit and I'm not accepting that.

My friend, I agree with you on most of your points except for this one. You're diminishing MJ's talent to only moonwalking or hitting high notes as an argument which is wrong because what is implied here that MJ was only considered talented because he could Moonwalk or hit high notes. We all know that is not the truth.

For the other part of the argument I agree with you. All the brothers were talented. They knew how to play instruments, write songs and dance. To suggest that they weren't talented would be insane in my book.

 

[DuranDuran]

Correct. How can anybody say that they aren't talented?

Some people here seem to think sales & popularity equals talent, like this:

Without him, they could not have achieved anything because they were untalented, and the ‘2300 Jackson Street’ album (1989) is one proof for that.

That album (without Michael Jackson’s involvement) went totally unnoticed, and its poor success even made the Epic label end the contract with the band.

Milli Vanilli's Girl You Know It's True album sold more than any individual album by The Jacksons or Jackson 5. So by that kind of logic that means Rob & Fab are more talented than any member of The Jacksons. Most of the leads on their songs are by Mike. Drake has more hits on the Hot 100 than any other act. So he is more talented than everybody else who made recordings. 2300 had 2 Top 10 hits on the R&B charts. So it did have some success. Some of the singles The Jacksons had with Mike did not reach the pop Top 10, because they were not promoted to pop radio. Something like Triumph came out after the disco backlash and the baseball game riot when some pop radio stations stopped playing R&B acts because it was considered disco in the early 1980s. Black artists are often considered R&B by default in the USA even if their music is not actually R&B. Rolling Stone magazine would not put Mike on the cover during that period after the mainstream success of Off The Wall and it was mostly nominated in R&B categories at the award shows. The mainstream music media gave more attention to rock and maybe pop artists. David Bowie even asked MTV why they did not show many black artists. Early MTV was basically showing videos by acts on Top 40 and there wasn't that many black artists/songs on pop radio at the time.

I know some people think that if a record is not a mainstream Top 40 radio hit (code for a lotta white people liking/buying it) then it isn't popular or is a flop. That is also why a movies/TV with a majority black cast are labeled "black movies", "black TV shows", or "blaxploitation". But there are none called "white movies", because white is considered the default. People made a big deal about the Black Panther movie being a success and was called the first black superhero movie. But there was Meteor Man in the mid-1990s, but it did not cross over to mainstream audiences. There's a reason networks like BET & Telemundo exist, because the mainstream doesn't do as much promotion on non-white entertainment. The 2300 album didn't sell that well because Epic did not do a lot of promotion on it, and it was mostly promoted to R&B radio (code for primarily black audience). Mainstream Top 40 will promote a white artist doing R&B related music over a black one (Elvis Presley, Rolling Stones, Bee Gees, Hall & Oates, Average White Band, Wham!/George Michael, Phil Collins, Madonna, New Kids On The Block, KC & The Sunshine Band, Justin Timberlake, Michael Bolton, Adele, Doobie Brothers, etc). Black performers had to "crossover" to the mainstream to get the bigger sales and media recognition. Most didn't and were mostly popular to the black audience (Teddy Pendergrass, Stephanie Mills, Tyrone Davis, Johnnie Taylor, Cameo, Gap Band, Lakeside, etc).

 

[Nite Line]

My friend, I agree with you on most of your points except for this one. You're diminishing MJ's talent to only moonwalking or hitting high notes as an argument which is wrong because what is implied here that MJ was only considered talented because he could Moonwalk or hit high notes. We all know that is not the truth.

For the other part of the argument I agree with you. All the brothers were talented. They knew how to play instruments, write songs and dance. To suggest that they weren't talented would be insane in my book.

I'm sorry but that wasn't my intention. I wasn't trying to say Michael could only moonwalk and hit high notes.

 

[ozemouze]

The Jacksons worked very well as a band for years because of Michael Jackson.

It was more than that, watch a J5 concert (e.g. Goin' Back to Indiana): great shows full of energy and every member contributed to the experience. Sure, MJ always stood out to some extent (that's not something unusual, many bands have front men), but the brothers got great chemistry and completed each other's performances. It looked like they enjoyed working together and boosted each other's creativity at the time (within the limits of Motown's control).

By the time they finally got full creative control MJ started to establish a league on his own and with very different ideas, so the collaboration was about to stop at some point.

Without him, they could not have achieved anything because they were untalented, and the ‘2300 Jackson Street’ album (1989) is one proof for that.

You mix up quality with success but they won't always go hand in hand. The brothers are "less talented" only compared to MJ, not to their musical peers in general, and that's an unfair situation without being their fault (or MJ's for that matter). After MJ's solo success they were outshined by him, in that regard their surname only hindered their carriers ironically.

First of all, Janet was only a great dancer. She isn't and was never a great singer. She was also heavily reliant on Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis for the songwriting and production of her songs. I didn't see her play any instruments either. In contrast, the brothers wrote their own songs starting from Destiny and played instruments.

But there are many people who can sing well and play instruments, that in itself isn't enough to stand out. There must be some plus unique quality, message, vision, etc and yes, also luck. These things all worked for Janet. Yes, it was a lucky turning point for her to meet Jimmy & Terry, but it was her material and goal to achieve (she had a complex vision while T&J were the instruments in realizing it). Yes, she's not the best singer around, but!...T&J's wrote the songs for her range (I think it was intentional) so as a result it was still Janet who could sing these songs the best, as they were hers in every sense. Yes, she benefited from music videos and choreography, but that's not a bad thing - these are other types of art forms. So I can actually understand why she had more impact on a wider audience.

Reading some of the comments by some MJ fans, it gives me the impression that you guys have horrible relationships with your families.

That was uncalled-for.