Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson (Excerpts on page 19)

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Stop passing opinions/speculations as facts Psychoniff!

 

[SoCav]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

^ It's not even the leading chords he's talking about but little part at the beginning (the part you can hear on the Sonic soundtrack) which is a few seconds sample in loops before MJ starts singing.

This is just a side note but the entire track except for the chorus ("How does it feel.." till "When you're cold inside") uses that same four-chord progression (which is also in the Sonic demo). It's the same in all the verses, the instrumental section in the middle and the outro. It just modulates up and then down again during the outro.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

This is just a side note but the entire track except for the chorus ("How does it feel.." till "When you're cold inside") uses that same four-chord progression (which is also in the Sonic demo). It's the same in all the verses, the instrumental section in the middle and the outro. It just modulates up and then down again during the outro.

Yes it uses the same 4 chords throughout the songs I hear a difference between the sample in the intro at 0:33 to 1:00 (the sample you can clearly hear on Sonic) and the chords when the song begins. The Sonic loop disappears a few seconds after MJ starts to sing. It's kind of like Billie Jean intro, there are many things going at the same time and it's sometimes hard to pinpoint what is what.

 

[SoCav]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Yes it uses the same 4 chords throughout the songs I hear a difference between the sample in the intro at 0:33 to 1:00 (the sample you can clearly hear on Sonic) and the chords when the song begins. The Sonic loop disappears a few seconds after MJ starts to sing. It's kind of like Billie Jean intro, there are many things going at the same time and it's sometimes hard to pinpoint what is what.

You're referring to the melody being played over the chords, I think. That actually is played throughout the song too, subtly implied during the beginning of the verses and more prominently for instance during the instrumental midsection. But the chords underneath remain the same throughout except for the chorus.

Anyway, it's not directly relevant to the discussion that was going on (in as much as there was actually a discussion going on.. lol).

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

You're referring to the melody being played over the chords, I think. That actually is played throughout the song too, subtly implied during the beginning of the verses and more prominently for instance during the instrumental midsection. But the chords underneath remain the same throughout except for the chorus.

Anyway, it's not directly relevant to the discussion that was going on (in as much as there was actually a discussion going on.. lol).

Yes, that's exactly what I meant - and that's the part they initially alleged MJ took (again without any proof) not the main chords throughout the song which someone tried to imply later. I just used the same terminology others used before :cheeky: I appreciate your correction.

 

[SoCav]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

^I think we're still talking past each other a bit. What I gather from the book is that Brad had the Sonic idea and played it for MJ. My point is that the 'Sonic ending theme' which we can listen to on YouTube features the same chord progression that is used all throughout SIM except for its chorus. In addition to that, it also features a melody (which you referred) which is also played several times throughout the song.

One thing we do not know is whether the Sonic track that made it to the Sonic game (which we can listen to on YouTube) is also the same one that Brad played for MJ. He could have worked on it more afterwards. This is in addition to us not having MJ's side of the story available to us of course.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

^I think we're still talking past each other a bit. What I gather from the book is that Brad had the Sonic idea and played it for MJ. My point is that the 'Sonic ending theme' which we can listen to on YouTube features the same chord progression that is used all throughout SIM except for its chorus. In addition to that, it also features a melody (which you referred) which is also played several times throughout the song.

One thing we do not know is whether the Sonic track that made it to the Sonic game (which we can listen to on YouTube) is also the same one that Brad played for MJ. He could have worked on it more afterwards. This is in addition to us not having MJ's side of the story available to us of course.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread.

That's more on topic than Quincy :rofl:

I understand your point, I still think it is a not exactly the same. I also agree with the second statement you made. We just don't have enough knowledge to conclude anything extreme and in my opinion it's very likely the whole creating process was part of brainstorming and nothing like "MJ did this, Brad did that". You need basic understanding of how they worked before having a fit.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

so he learned all this selfish behavior from Q when Q refused him co-production credit?
'Study the greats..."
Haha. That's my boy!!!





I'm just being a little sarcastic.

When did Quincy Jones ever withhold co-production credit from Michael Jackson

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

When did Quincy Jones ever withhold co-production credit from Michael Jackson

I don't think anything ever ended up being withheld-but I do remember reading articles back in the day when Thriller hit about "discussions" that he and Quincy had over co-production credit since the finished work sounded so much like the demo. I don't remember who wrote about it-probably somebody like Robert Hillman, who always seemed to have the ins and outs of music and the behind the scenes stories (and was a good writer).

I had totally forgotten about that until I heard the demos for the first time when I bought the Special Editions.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Once you read this bit, you'll understand where Psychoniff is coming from and his dislike with after Thriller MJ:cheeky:
It was the replacement who stole songs left, right and centre, and this replacement refused to give credits.

Barbee, he was definitely replaced. I mean, who transforms like in the blink of eye like this in just 3yrs (84'-87'). MJ pre-Thriller not only had a different facial appearance but if you look closely at the nuances in his dance moves and cadence from say the last show in Los Angeles on the Victory Tour in 84' compared to the first Japanese show of the Bad Tour in 87', there are sharp differences. He at this point no long sounded the same, or moved the same.

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/137856-Why-They-Killed-Michael-Jackson

 

[Bubs]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

When did Quincy Jones ever withhold co-production credit from Michael Jackson

Billie Jean.
"Jackson refused to change the title and asked Jones to give him co-producing credits for the track, as he felt that the demo tape sounded exactly like the finished product. In addition, Jackson wanted extra royalties. Jones granted neither and the two fell out for several days."

 

[HIStory]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

^I think we're still talking past each other a bit. What I gather from the book is that Brad had the Sonic idea and played it for MJ. My point is that the 'Sonic ending theme' which we can listen to on YouTube features the same chord progression that is used all throughout SIM except for its chorus. In addition to that, it also features a melody (which you referred) which is also played several times throughout the song.

One thing we do not know is whether the Sonic track that made it to the Sonic game (which we can listen to on YouTube) is also the same one that Brad played for MJ. He could have worked on it more afterwards. This is in addition to us not having MJ's side of the story available to us of course.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread.

Don't forget that while MJ was alive Brad said that he and MJ wrote the Sonic theme together (I provided the quotes earlier in this thread). Now, all of a sudden it's all him alone. Brad contradicted himself on this issue, so I don't know how people can take this new version of the story at face value. MJ is not the only person on the Earth with an ego.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Once you read this bit, you'll understand where Psychoniff is coming from and his dislike with after Thriller MJ:cheeky:
It was the replacement who stole songs left, right and centre, and this replacement refused to give credits.


http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/137856-Why-They-Killed-Michael-Jackson

Wow, just wow.

I know that some people cannot accept MJ's artistic and personal changes and would have loved him to remain the OTW/Thriller era MJ forever. I have also seen people differentiating between "black Mike" and "white Mike" - already crazy in itself. But to say it is actually not the same person, just to be able to distance themselves from anything post-Thriller, is taking it to an insane level.

If it was a replacement then well the "replacement" was a genius. (Not actually giving any credit to this insane theory, I am only talking sarcastically.) I mean the "replacment" did the freaking Bad Tour! The "replacement" wrote more songs than the original. The "replacement" created more number one singles than the original. The "replacement" wrote songs such as TDCAU, Who Is It, Earth Song, Smooth Criminal, Dirty Diana etc etc. He created all the best videos. And I personally think the "replacement" has a much more exciting catalog than the "original". :rofl:

 

[analogue]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Don't forget that while MJ was alive Brad said that he and MJ wrote the Sonic theme together (I provided the quotes earlier in this thread). Now, all of a sudden it's all him alone. Brad contradicted himself on this issue, so I don't know how people can take this new version of the story at face value. MJ is not the only person on the Earth with an ego.

Why do some fans automatically believe Brad's side of the story when MJ is not around to give his side of the story? I think it would be impossible to take sides here, when one of them is dead and cannot defend himself.

I don't want to call Brad a liar, but I also don't want to say he's telling the truth either. And he's also contradicted himself, so that doesn't help his case if he can't keep a straight story.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

When did Quincy Jones ever withhold co-production credit from Michael Jackson

Your pants go on flame whenever somebody mentions Quincy or something? The post barbee was responding to is far more disturbing than her little joke. But hey to each his own.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Your pants go on flame whenever somebody mentions Quincy or something? The post barbee was responding to is far more disturbing than her little joke. But hey to each his own.

I was simply asking a question, my pants are not in flames :lmao:

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

if you say so...

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Billie Jean.
"Jackson refused to change the title and asked Jones to give him co-producing credits for the track, as he felt that the demo tape sounded exactly like the finished product. In addition, Jackson wanted extra royalties. Jones granted neither and the two fell out for several days."

and who was this according to

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Yeah, I remember hearing about that. To be honest, I think MJ had a fair point. The home demo sounds very similar in terms of production values to the album version and yet it is Quincy who constantly gets the credit for his production work on Thriller, as if the extent of MJ's contribution was to just turn up and sing the songs. It is very annoying as anybody who bothers to do the slightest bit of research into it will see how involved MJ was in the creation, writing and production of those songs and yet he never gets the credit he is due.

how is this the case, where every song that MIchael Jackson wrote/penned on his albums OTW, Thriller, and Bad, he is credited for those songs.......

Quincy Jones has never been accused of withholding any type of creative efforts w/any other artist he's worked with and he's worked w/the who's who of performers

 

[Psychoniff]

Once you read this bit, you'll understand where Psychoniff is coming from and his dislike with after Thriller MJ:cheeky:
It was the replacement who stole songs left, right and centre, and this replacement refused to give credits.


http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/137856-Why-They-Killed-Michael-Jackson

Except, you're not very funny.

Billie Jean.
"Jackson refused to change the title and asked Jones to give him co-producing credits for the track, as he felt that the demo tape sounded exactly like the finished product. In addition, Jackson wanted extra royalties. Jones granted neither and the two fell out for several days."

This goes back to what I said to Barbee, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. That's why he dropped Quincy, because Q. wasn't a push over like Bill Bottrell, Brad Buxer et al.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

This goes back to what I said to Barbee, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. That's why he dropped Quincy, because Q. wasn't a push over like Bill Bottrell, Brad Buxer et al.

I guess unlike Bubs, you're very amusing.

And use multiquote next time, please.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Except, you're not very funny.



This goes back to what I said to Barbee, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. That's why he dropped Quincy, because Q. wasn't a push over like Bill Bottrell, Brad Buxer et al.

It wasn't meant to be funny at all, just to play with idea why you dislike anything after Thriller Michael did.

If you think MJ dropped Quincy because he wasn't push over, you don't even know the facts or MJ for that matter:smilerolleyes:

 

[AlwaysThere]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Buy this book.

I could rant about it for paragraphs upon paragraphs, but I'll keep it short: it's phenomenal.

 

[Psychoniff]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

It wasn't meant to be funny at all, just to play with idea why you dislike anything after Thriller Michael did.

If you think MJ dropped Quincy because he wasn't push over, you don't even know the facts or MJ for that matter:smilerolleyes:

It was part of a larger bridge that developed between them. So would I say it was the only reason? No. Would I say it was one of several reasons? Absolutely.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

Except, you're not very funny.



This goes back to what I said to Barbee, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. That's why he dropped Quincy, because Q. wasn't a push over like Bill Bottrell, Brad Buxer et al.

On the contrary I meant Michael might have been a little tired of being pushed around by Quincy. He was more than ready to prove he could do it on his own. Just like when he had to leave his brothers. He was ready to explore new territory.
(Although I am still sorry they split).

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

On the contrary I meant Michael might have been a little tired of being pushed around by Quincy. He was more than ready to prove he could do it on his own. Just like when he had to leave his brothers. He was ready to explore new territory.
(Although I am still sorry they split).

Let him think he can make up things based on his own fantasies - Nobody has ever claimed this BS before. He's trolling.

 

[HIStory]

Here is description of MJ's writing process from the book. I think it is fair and accurate. I don't know why some fans tried to make it look like the book was saying MJ was stealing from his musicians left and right. This section quotes two unnamed collaborators of MJ who have that opinion but then right after that there are two named collaborators of MJ who completely disagree with that point of view. I think someone who actually gives his name to an opinon has more weight than someone who hides behind anonymity. Overall the section gives a fair explanation of MJ's writing process and it does represent him as the impressive songwriter that he was.

FOCUS: MICHAEL AND SONGWRITING

PLANTING THE SEED In terms of songwriting, Michael was gifted in a sense that his creativity was totally effortless. Rather than having specific writing sessions, an idea would just come to him naturally without thought. “If I sat here and said, ‘Right, I’m going write the best song I’ve ever written’, nothing happens,” he explained. “Nowadays, artists seem to get in the way of the music. Get out of the way of the music! Don’t write the music! Let the music write itself.” For that reason, he never believed in the concept of writer’s block. “He wasn’t an artist who said, ‘Oh, I’ve got an album coming up, I better start writing songs’,” Matt Forger said. “The songs were constantly flowing from him, and if it wasn’t a song it was a poem, it was an idea for a story or short-film… It was a constant creative process.”

Michael felt that the creation of a song was very spiritual – as if the song was already written before it came to him. “It’s hard to take credit for the songs that I write, because I just always feel that it’s done from above,” he once said. “I feel fortunate for being that instrument through which music flows. I’m just the source through which it comes. I can’t take credit for it because it’s God’s work. He’s just using me as the messenger.” Michael found that song ideas would come to him at any given moment. “I could be walking along on a road or I could be sitting on a bench at Disneyland or something eating peanuts and there it is – it’s in my head, or I could be in the shower.” A certain phase in Michael’s life or a particular emotion in a given moment would often influence his creative thought process. “I never categorise the music [I write] ’cause I never sit down and say, ‘I’m gonna write a disco song, or pop or rock’,” he said.

THE TRANSLATION FROM MIND TO TAPE

As Michael could not read music or play an instrument to an adequate level, his method of songwriting was different from that of many other writers. When an idea suddenly came to him, he would sing the entire arrangement of a song that he was hearing in his head into a tape recorder, including the bass and the melody, as well as aspects such as percussion and drums. “He can convey it [a song arrangement] with his voice like nobody,” Bill Bottrell said. “Not just singing the song’s lyrics, but he can convey a feeling in a drum part or a synthesiser part. He’s really good at conveying those things.” Although the words to the chorus of a song would sometimes come to Michael at the same time that the melody was created, the lyrics for the verses were mostly written after the melody and instrumentation was completed. “I first hear the music and feel the dance, and then the words come spontaneously,” he said. To Michael it was the melody, and not the lyrics, that was always the most crucial component of a song.

He explained that with lyrics, the listener is restricted to understanding English, whereas a melody is a universal language. “You have to be able to hum it [the song], from the farmer in Ireland to that lady who scrubs toilets in Harlem to anybody who can whistle to a child poppin’ their fingers,” he said. Michael said great melodies are immortal. “Fashions change, culture changes, customs change. [But] we still listen to Mozart, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. Great music is like a great piece of sculpture or a great painting. It’s forever. For generations upon generations to appreciate forever.” Michael collaborators soon learned how important melody was to him. “The one thing with Michael: melody is king,” future producer Teddy Riley said. “That was his favourite slogan, that and ‘settle for nothing less than great’. That’s the one thing that’s important with Michael, he doesn’t care what the words say, he cares about the melody.”

Michael admitted translating these ideas and sounds from his mind to tape wasn’t an easy process. “It’s very difficult sometimes, you only have one voice, but you’re hearing full chords,” he said. In another interview, he said, “In my head, it’s [the song] completed, but I have to transplant that to tape. It’s like [Alfred] Hitchcock said, ‘The movie’s finished’. But he still has to start directing it. The song is the same. You see it in its entirety and then you execute it.”

TRANSLATION FROM TAPE TO TRACK

After translating his ideas to tape, the next step for Michael would be to bring in musicians to replace his voice with instruments. Together, they would create a demo composition of the song. “He has an entire record in his head and he tries to make people deliver it to him,” Bill Bottrell said. “Sometimes those people surprise him and augment what he hears, but really his job is to extract from musicians and producers and engineers what he hears when he wakes up in the morning.”

Some who worked with Michael felt that having musicians execute his ideas was a form of cheating. One musician, who worked with Michael for over 15 years and will remain unnamed, said: “The problem with Michael is that he would often have musical secretaries. He would sit down with a musician and have them play parts he had in his head. If a musician played a certain part, Michael would then say, ‘No not like that’, and then when the musician played it differently, he would say, ‘Yeah like that, like that!’ On the musician’s part, this would sometimes be classed as writing.” Another musician, who also worked with Michael for over 15 years, shares a similar view. “Sometimes what musicians would do for Michael would border on writing. Michael would sing a note to a musician, and he would play a chord, sometimes making writing decisions without getting credited for it.” Matt Forger totally disagrees with this viewpoint. “These were situations where Michael worked with different people to help him

realise his ideas; sometimes the people working with him contributed ideas as well,” he said. “It would have to be a case-by-case evaluation. I worked on many songs that Michael created from scratch. Others may have opinions of their own, but other people were not responsible for writing his hit songs. They may have played a part, but it was usually in support of him.” Bill Bottrell is also in Michael’s corner. “Michael was better than most at knowing the difference between writing and everything else that goes on,” he said. “We split our compositions clearly and fairly.” After the creation of a demo Michael would then take it to the main studio, such as Westlake, where the session musicians would record a final musical track. Michael would then add his vocals. After this, it was a case of sweetening the track before the engineers (usually Bruce Swedien) mixed it.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

OK! Thanks, respect! I see no stealing here-and as you say, the difference of opinion came from two people that didn't want to be named. Forger and Bottrell both worked for/with Michael for many years and have been quite articulate in the docs I've seen them in. I respect their opinions.

How's the rest of the book so far???

 

[HIStory]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

OK! Thanks, respect! I see no stealing here-and as you say, the difference of opinion came from two people that didn't want to be named. Forger and Bottrell both worked for/with Michael for many years and have been quite articulate in the docs I've seen them in. I respect their opinions.

How's the rest of the book so far???

I read it slowly because I have other things to do, but so far it was nothing really new to me, just bits and pieces maybe. But then I have been reading lots of articles and interviews about MJ so I was familiar with many of the stories in the book. I am at Bad era now, when I finish (which may take some time) I'll give a review.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Making Michael: Inside the Career of Michael Jackson

I read it slowly because I have other things to do, but so far it was nothing really new to me, just bits and pieces maybe. But then I have been reading lots of articles and interviews about MJ so I was familiar with many of the stories in the book. I am at Bad era now, when I finish (which may take some time) I'll give a review.

No, take your time. I really appreciate that you gave us an update in the middle over this 'point of contention' that's been going on.
This excerpt makes it sound better than I expected after reading previous posts.